"I cast Massive Headache": Stacking SoS's and the pains of keeping track

[HighWater]

Hello mighty Playgrounders,

My DM ran into a bit of a snag last game we played, trying to do a 15 (NPCs) vs 3 (PC's) combat. Certainly, D&D isn't really designed for encounters of this numeric magnitude, but apparently layering Save or Sucks on several enemies is a quick way to break the DMs brain. I'll describe the situation below before I throw out my question to the Playground, you can skip to the end if the words "Glitterdust + Entangle + Stinking Cloud" already get the problem across.

The set up:

3 PC's
Dwarf Barbarian 6,
Elf Druid 6,
Half-Elf Sorcerer 6 (me),

vs

15 Orcs with class levels (2 different types, which will turn out to be only a minor complication)


The Orcs approached us in a tight formation and were very close before they were discovered (tall grass and such), which meant no surprise round for anybody. Some Orcs actually got to go first because the Sorcerer rolled really low on initiative (despite Nerveskitter, Imp Init and a decent Dex), while the others rolled pretty bad aswell. After damaging the Druid and the Sorcerer with ranged attacks, the Sorcerer returned fire with a Glitterdust that covered a large chunk of the enemy (about 70% thanks to their tight formation), triggering the first round of the DM throwing a lot of saves and trying to mark who were blinded and who were not as well as what that meant for their combat effectiveness. After that, the Druid let loose an Entangle that easily covered the whole group, triggering another bunch of saves, which induced some more DM marking npcs on his spreadsheet. The Barbarian chopped a bit, and the Orcs that didn't make their Entangle saves tried to pull loose on their turn (and the DM tried to unmark those that succeeded). Then the Sorcerer came up again: Stinking Cloud that covered every enemy except the first rank (to allow the Barbarian some targets). Another bunch of saves, another condition to monitor and accurately couple to the right opponent as well as a big "Nope" on visibility. Then matters became worse, the Entangle would Entangle again on the Druid's turn, and the Stinking Cloud would do it's dirty work again on the Sorcerers turn. As the Barbarian was trying to bash people in the face, the DM was becoming stressed with coming up with the right AC numbers for the Orcs, the right to-hit numbers on their counter attacks, the maximum movement they were allowed etc. etc.
The DM lost track, finding it impossible to keep up with all the inflicted statusses and their effects on the combat effectiveness of the Orcs. Stinking Cloud and Entangle hinder movement, being Nauseated or Blinded hinders movement (Blindness doesn't stack with the cloud effect on movement and miss chance), Blinded and Entangled have effects on AC and to-hit, as well as both destroying Dex in a different way. Nauseated makes doing anything other than single-move impossible... And then there's the countdown timers: entangle lasting 6 minutes as long as the targets were in the area. Glitterdust would last for 6 rounds, stinking cloud as well (but a turn later) and when you leave the cloud, there's a separate timer to lose nauseation...

In short: while the Barbarian chopped an Orc or two in half, the Sorcerer and Druid broke the DM's brain. We were declared victorious as it was inevitable that we'd clean up the orcs one by one as they left the Stinking Cloud of Entanglement with or without Glitter in their eyes. But we only killed 3 or 4 before it became officially bogged down with the Dm giving up. Leaving the Barbarian a bit disappointed (for lack of chopping), while everyone was feeling bad for the DM who gazed in horror upon his spreadsheet.


TL:DR
Now, reading this board I know that many of you like your SoS spells. This suggests to me that they probably come up in play on a regular basis. These spells seem pretty intensive if you only have 2 NPCs to monitor, let alone doing a "group fight" as described above. So, DM's, how do you cope? Are there excelsheets around that assist in the awful task of monitoring status-layered opponents and their remaining combat effectiveness? Ways to delegate this to players? Other helpful comments?

PS: Not looking for feedback on Orc "strategy" (which made the SoS spells extra effective).

[Kol Korran]

If these are player spells then I delegate the task of remembering their affects to them. As to remembering which orc is what, we use different colors of miniatures, or change their position, such as facing backwards, sideways or even prone. The combination of colors and posture usually suffice for mass enemies, while more unique ones are usually easily remembered. (The players won't let me forget)
as a side note- in my game the players roll all the dice, even for opponents (there's a simple conversion). This helps the DM focus on running the encounter instead of doing lots of minute calculations. (Like 15 saving throws times who knows how many)

[Vaz]

I've found that printing off a load of cards beforehand, similar to Pokemon style, and then layering them to the individual cards makes it easier. Rather than having to work out in the middle of combat that Entangled is a -2 penalty to attack and -4 Dex, and scrambling through the books to locate that effect, I layer the card down on the creature's sheet. I also like to use little markers to represent actions that each ones available to take - say a Red one for a Swift, a Blue for a Standard and a Green for a Move. Applying the nauseated effect for example, I'd notice on the card it states can only make a single move action, so I'd take away the Red and Blue Markers. Using either a pencil or a dry wipe marker if I've laminated the well used cards (and with status effects piling up like on a debuffer bard I've got, you'll need them), I write on how long there is left.

I've lost the spreadsheet I used to create them, otherwise I'd leave them as a resource on here. I'm not sure if there are any floating around.

[HighWater]

Thanks Kol Korran & Vaz. I guess the answer is a stronger physical presence of the information on the field! I'll see if he goes for that and help out a bit with the required info, some cards and colors.

@Kol Korran: I've seen you describe that system somewhere and it looked interesting. I might implement it at some point when my group has a firmer grasp on the mechanics. :smallwink:

[Kol Korran]

I can go on and explain how this little change quite turned my game around, in more thna one way, but I'll focus on the main things here. The rest of the post is from another explanation (i don't have much time now) So if soemthing is not quite understood, please let me know.

The idea is quite simple really. The system is mostly used for player defense rolls (Instead of monster attack rolls) and players spell/ ability roll (Instead of a monster saving roll). Anything else that involves a d20 quite follows the same thing. A few more small guidelines follow.

Defense roll
The player rolls a 1d20+AC. The target number is 22+the monster's attack bonus. Reaching it means to have avoided the attack, not reaching it means you got hit. Criticals are on the lower spectrum of the d20 (1, 1-2, or 1-3 depending on the monster's attack usual threat range). players roll the damage done to them.

spell/ ability roll
This is basically the same. The player rolls 1d20+Spell/ ability's DC. the target number is 22+ the monster's save bonus. Same rules.

(Don't ask me why it's 22, but it works. I've tried many attempts, and the probabilities are the same as in rolling normally. You can try, it works. Some math guys tried explaining it to me, but I'm no math wiz. It works anyway...)

About Skills
Static skill checks are handled the same. For opposed skill checks I just let another person roll, but tell the bonus after it's rolled (Since then the character tested the difficulty of the task).

General rolls
All kind of random rolls (concealment for example) and such I either tell the players the possible outcomes up front, or if that is not possible, I make the beneficial results be the high ones, and the negative results the lower ones. The players all know that in my game, "High is Better than low".

Things to note:
1) You basically means you can't fudge rolls. I suggest lowering slightly the difficulty when you start this, to get a hold of what is tough and what's not.
2) Battles behave unexpectedly at times. A simple battle becomes extremely tough, or a tough battle a walkover. I find this is a great thing, which creates many unexpected and fun moments in the game.
3) Players will probably become much more tactical, and often quite more involved. This is one of the most major benefits. They feel it is more... REAL in a way.
4) It's a major time saver (5 players roll the attacks against them way faster then one DM rolling all dice). It also helps me keep my concentration on the battle instead of just numbers.

Good luck to you!

[Fizban]

I suppose I use a bit of a combination of a "gentleman's agreement," and having already nerfed some of the offending spells. Entangle, Web, Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud and all their friends are absurdly powerful. I've cut the re-entangling effect and duration of that, Web's duration Glitterdust's Duration, and my stance on Stinking Cloud is somewhere around "I ***ing dare you." (I think I also said I'd cut the duration outside of cloud to 1 round). I don't aim to use more than a couple such spells on the party and I think my players are mostly aware of this so they don't aim to use more than a couple on my monsters.

Tactical positioning and timing can of course limit the effectiveness of such spells, by keeping targets apart, staying too close to hit without collateral damage, or baiting and waiting out the durations, but there's also the problem of actually killing the targets. You mentioned your sorcerer set the cloud back so the barbarian could pick off a few targets, but after that he'd still have to wade into the cloud. If it weren't for the massive 1d4 rounds after, and assuming the caster doesn't have a pile of lightning bolts at hand, just sitting in the cloud and waiting is a perfectly fine strategy. Also enough time for the glitterdust to wear off, leaving just the entangle effect to deal with (still more than enough to let them get pincusioned if you don't nerf it, but easier to deal with). Kinda funny actually, a fog spell for cover is a great idea if you've got an entangle effect to wade through, just having the orcs retreat into the cloud would have been the best option.

[PsyBomb]

As a DM, I always have spare paper with me. 15 Orcs suffering under various combinations of SoS? No problem.

3 SOS AoEs means a total of 8 possible categories, which I list out vertically like so:

Uninflicted
Glitterdust
Entangle
Fog
G+E
G+S
S+E
All 3

the Orcs fall into 2 categories for classes, and sorting them out into the categories (since I know my players and roughly what they like to use) means that I can pre-calculate the effect. All that's left is me putting the numbered trackers into the categories. Usually won't become a problem unless you hit 4+ distinct status effects running (which has only happened once to me after DMing more or less constantly since 3.0 first released), at which point you go from 8 to 14 possible categories.

Thing is, under certain SOS combinations, one of them will make the others irrelevant. A Glitterdusted Barbarian who failed his save is not going to really care about a Darkness effect, for example. The one time I had 4 status effects to track, Sleep was one of them, which rendered Blind/Entangle/Stun fairly moot.

Your DM created a situation where Crowd Control was both insanely effective and imperitive at the same time, knowing that your Sorc has both Glitterdust and Stinking Cloud as Spells Known (and in most cases, knowing the Druid had Entangle ready). He got to live with the party doing the smartest tactical thing, and if he was slow then he probably should have prepared better.

[nedz]

I use a combination of coloured counters and paper. I would use coloured counters for entangled and probably nauseous too, but paper notes for bindness.

Also the DM should have about 10x d20s to speed things up.

Not having all of your NPCs in a tight group should reduce the number effected also — but this is a tactical issue.

[HighWater]

Thanks guys, this has been helpful;

@nedz: I'll suggest colored pieces of paper to mark conditions on the "board" (we don't use a grid, this is partly responsible for the chaos that ensued),

@PsyBomb: I was thinking along these lines too. I'm the "Rules Lawyer" (I use my powers both for good and evil) of the group, so I'll work it out for the DM for next session (will be useful for me aswell as I have my own campaign, mechanics are a bit of a weak point for the DM). The "Clouded" and "Wringling undergrowth" conditions are still missing, guess that in order to really represent these, a grid would be most useful, but we've tried to do without a grid as some people find it detrimental to the experience...

@Fizban: I understand the call for a nerf, it seems that the DM wasn't so much surprised by the power of the spells, but more the chaos they inflicted (he's always a bit short on time to prepare). One of the reasons this turned into a SOS-fest is because I (the sorcerer) hadn't had a chance to take out either G or SC for a spin in a serious combat yet, as well as the potential danger the Orcs posed. That it happened in a field of grain just made the Druid jump in. :smallbiggrin: Retreating into the fog wouldn't have improved the situation for the Orcs though, they'd have been Dusted again before it dispersed and the outer ring of smoke would've been unsafe with only 20% concealment. Gentlemen's agreement is open for business if required, so we'll see what happens after the other fixes have been applied.

@Kol Korran: I can see why it should be 22. Not sure I'd have thought of that myself though. I take it they have to roll for each monster they try to affect? It's a bit too early for my group for now (mostly newbies, including myself), but it seems interesting later on.

[Ansem]

Your problems are easily solved with an automatic dice roller.
Our DM uses tools to keep track of everyone's modifiers, turn in initiative etc and it's as easy as changing a number and the program does the rest.
Just find an IT geek to make it for you or Google for one. (Our DM made his own custom), otherwise it's simply the hassle of large-scale combat.