View Full Version : Need help readying a build

2007-02-24, 02:51 AM
Ok, my char atm is a lvl 1 human Swashbuckler. He has lots of Diplomacy, Bluff, and Sense Motive, as well as cc Knowledge: Local and Gather info.

str 14
dex 16
con 14
Int 16
Wis 14
Char 14

Feats: Weapon Finese (1st lvl Buckler of Swash)
Weapon Focus, Rapier

I am considering going to third level, then taking a 1 level dip into Rogue so the feats are not cc.

2007-02-24, 05:00 AM
Weapon Focus? Are you planning on taking up a prestige class with that as a prerq. It's sort of subpar. You qualify for Power Attack. That and you can get Weapon Proficiency(Spiked Chain) (this has reach) or Weapon Proficiency (Elven Court Blade) (this has an awesome threat range, from Races of the Wild) which are awesome two handed finesse-able weapons.

2007-02-24, 12:20 PM
Weapon Focus (Rapier) is fine at Level 1, though you may regret it later, you might be able to retrain. No need to pick up Power Attack yet, as you don't have a lot of Base Attack Bonus to burn anyway.
So, what is the actual question you want to ask? What direction do you want to develop the Character in? Do you want to be more combat effective? What is the reason for proposing a Multi Class into Rogue?

2007-02-24, 02:31 PM
My Character is a middle man, he puts criminals in contact with other criminals. As his career in semi organised crime continues he will probably be picking up other useful skills, like Forgery, or Disguise. And If I take a level of Rogue I could get those skills, as well as Sneak Attack.

As for Power attack, I don't know, it just seems odd to have on a weapon that requires finese... I do get my + 3 intelligence bonus to damage at 3rd level... Also, my character is nowhere near elven lands, nor does he particularly know or like many elves. Thus seeing him with an Elven racial weapon is... well... out of character and pretty much excuse my french, retarded and munchkinish

I want help on figuring out where exactly to go from here.

2007-02-24, 02:40 PM
Take a Skill-Feat or two. Maybe "Negotiator" or "Persuasive."

C'mon, I dare you. As soon as you do, somewhere in America a thousand optimizers will cry out and then fall silent....

2007-02-24, 03:08 PM
LOL, I already took Negotiator

2007-02-24, 05:46 PM
Actually a human diplomat with an elven court blade basically advertises his skills as a diplomat.

Matthew is right, you don't have the BAB to burn yet. Get Exotic Weapon Proficiecy(Elven Court Blade) now and Power Attack at level 3. Then never go swashbuckler again. LOLz.

2007-02-24, 05:56 PM
Hey, see if you can actually get someone on an Optimization board to clutch their chest and die. Three words:

Skill. Focus. Forgery.

2007-02-24, 06:06 PM
Hey, see if you can actually get someone on an Optimization board to clutch their chest and die. Three words:

Skill. Focus. Forgery.
No, actually,

Monkey Grip

Skill Focus Forgery has use in high diplomacy campaigns.

2007-02-24, 06:13 PM
You mean those things where you pretend like you're gonna play Dungeons & Dragons but then you don't? =p

2007-02-24, 06:31 PM
So... my guess is:

Human Swashbuckler 1, AB 1(5), AC 17, HP 12,
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Rapier), Negotiator,
Skills: Diplomacy 4(8), Bluff 4(6), Sense Motive 4(8), Balance 4(7), Tumble 4(7), Climb 4(6), Jump 4(6), Swim 4(6),
Equipment: Mail Shirt, Dagger, Rapier,

Skill Points: [(1 + 4 + 3) x 4] = 32 = eight maxed out Skills

If you want to use Cross Class Skills, I highly recommend you take Able Learner instead of Weapon Focus or Negotiator and stay with Swashbuckler until Level 3.

2007-02-24, 06:33 PM
If you're set on sticking with Swashbuckler as your primary thing, consider making it a three level dip in Rogue and getting Daring Outlaw as a feat. Rogue and Swashbuckler levels stack for Grace, Dodge Bonus to AC and Sneak Attack damage. Geting full Sneak Attack is nice, you still are only out one point of BAB, and you get Evasion and a REF save bump, which go well with your Grace and DEX bonus to REF saves...

You could go Rogue first to get the big lump of skill points. In addition to Forgery and Disguise, Appraise might be a good buy. You can't really trust any of the people paying you, and quite a few of them are likely to gone before you can get back at them (and in many cases you're still out payment even if you do get even). Mixing in a little fencing fits the broker concept. Hide and Move Silently are nice for that sudden appearance and disappearance thing (perhaps supplemented with some class ablity or magic) where you finish the deal and you're gone before they know it.

A diplomat that advertises his skill as a diplomat with an Elven Courtblade seems a little different fluffwise from a character that puts criminals in touch with other criminals, though there could be exceptions (the guy who procures direct criminal acts for high-level criminals like politicians for example). But, even then it seems like that guy would talk to the broker rather than directly to the criminals - and meet behind closed doors under a pretext or go to a meeting looking as un-courtly as possible. The guy lugging an elven courtblade around (and the person he is talking to) is going to remembered by anyone around when the meeting takes place. You'd want to be carrying something somewhat common in the criminal environment if you were the guy that arranged things between criminals.

2007-02-24, 07:05 PM
If you are going for the Swashbuckler/Rogue (Daring Outlaw) route, take the TWF tree to maximize/optimize your SA; Telling Blow with Rapier and a Kukri nets you SA damage even without flanking or initiative.

2007-02-24, 07:27 PM
clericwithnogod seems to have the right idea- also, once again, how the heck would I have an Elven courtblade when my char barely knows any elves (the very few he knows are smugglers or other low life scum) and lives, far, far away from elven lands?

The 3 level dip with Dashing outlaw sounds great, but wouldn't I be missing out on some of the Ability damage aspects of the character?

2007-02-24, 07:39 PM
If you are referring to weakening critical and wounding critical, a rogue's Crippling Strike and the Savvy Rogue Feat from complete scoundrel is better than weakening critical and available at level 13(with the swash levels thrown in) instead of 14 and you can apply it to all your SA without having to wait for that crit hit. As for the CON damage, look-up Disemboweling Strike which is available at level 9 instead of 19.

I am just giving you the best option crunch wise. Fluff wise, I can think of a few reasons why a human would have an an Elven Court Blade. Theft, a gift, smuggled goods. It's the best two handed weapon for a finesse fighter with the spiked chain as second.

2007-02-24, 07:52 PM
Yeah, but I am trying to avoid playing a Rogue as I have played them to death; I'm sticking w/ my rapier.

So, what do you suggest Feat/Skill/PrestigeClass/Armor wise for the future?
Weapon: Rapier
Armor: Studded Leather (I could not afford chain)

Current Skills:
Balance 2(4)
Bluff 4(6)
Climb 2(3)
Diplomacy 2(6)
Escape Artist 2(4)
Gather Information[cc] 2(4)
Jump 2(3)
Knowledge Local[cc] 2(5)
Profession (criminal middle man/go to guy) 4(6)
Sense Motive 2(6)
Swim 2(2)
Tumble 2(4)

I factored in my Armor check penalties.

2007-02-24, 07:59 PM
Able Learner will half the cost of your Cross Class Skills; well worth it for this sort of character.

2007-02-24, 07:59 PM
Wow, you've listened to no one so far except to the guy who disagreed with me but you later doused his suggestion too.

Anyway. Since I am out of cigarettes and my ass is glued to my chair:
Duelist is the obvious choice as it uses your int for defense while swash uses int for offense.

2007-02-25, 03:15 AM
There's a lot of stuff that seems to fit, but it all kind of hinges on having a few Rogue levels (and the attendent skill points). You've got 12 skills now and two more (Forgery and Disguise) that you probably want to develop. Able Learner will get you one point per level, and dipping Rogue for one level will allow you to develop them without cross-class level limitations, but you're still going to be hungry for skill points without picking up some 8-point levels along the way (and not taking Rogue at 1st level exacerbates the problem). Without Able Learner (which has to be taken at 1st level), it's even harder. And, I can't think of an 8-point or even 6-point skill class which fits what I get as your concept without giving another BAB hit.

It seems to me that concept is kind of roguish, so the mechanics that come to my mind which fit your concept are tied to the rogue class in some way. Swashbuckler9/Rogue3 (starting with Rogue1 and using Daring Outlaw) develops like a good Swashbuckler that can sneak attack well and has good skills. Doing Swashbuckler and taking a prestige class that fits the broker for criminals concept seems to turn out like a Rogue that can't sneak attack well and has mediocre skills all around. I ran a few builds, and really couldn't come up with something that fit what I get as your concept and was actually able to perform effectively without dipping a few levels of Rogue.

If you want to explain your concept a bit more in depth as to what you want the character to be able to do (and how well), I (or someone else) might be able to point you at mechanics that fit.

2007-02-25, 04:24 PM
Ok, he's supposed to be a debonair (sp?) criminal, a fencing master who keeps the moneyt flowing at the docks and slums, as well as associating with the occasional shady rich merchant. I'm starting to think a 3 level dip into Rogue might be the way to go.

2007-02-25, 04:48 PM
given that you've got a decent Charisma, you might also consider a 1-level dip into sorceror for the oh-so-lovely Charm Person 4 times a day. Makes negotiations and deals easier to live with, and the 0-level spells might work well flavor-wise so you can verify that an item someone wants you to fence is indeed magical - might necessitate a still spell feat or something. If you're using skill tricks, Conceal Spell trick would be very helpful here as well.