Flat-footing an opponent using Hide. (3.5)

[D4rkh0rus]

Given hide in plain sight, darkstalker, etc.

Can one make a full attack while hiding and make the opponent flatfooted?

I think I read somewhere that if you full attack from hiding, your full attack counts as if you were hiding, but Idk were it was... can someone clarify?

also, what action does "hiding" count as? move? standard? free?

[Duke of Urrel]

Let's answer your last question first.

According to the SRD's description of Hide skill:


Check
[…] It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running, or charging.



Action
Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see “Sniping,” above) is a move action.


Making a Hide check doesn't count as a separate action. I believe it always requires you to perform some other action, usually a move action. (I classify most Hide checks as "supplemental free actions," which I define as free actions that you can take only simultaneously with other actions that are not free.) If you happen to be standing in a place that offers concealment, I allow you to make a Hide check without actually moving at all, but I still require you to take a move action. This is my own house rule.

The rules above imply that you can also make a Hide check while you attack, though you must add a -20 penalty in this case. This is what makes it possible to sneak-attack an opponent several times while staying hidden. It's possible, but difficult.

Firstly, you have to win the initiative, so that it's possible to take a full-round attack action against an opponent. (A surprise round isn't enough.) This opponent must have failed all Spot checks until you make your first attack.

Secondly, as I interpret the rules, you have to make another Hide check at -20 every time you attack in order to stay hidden for your next attack. I don't allow you to make a single Hide check and then remain hidden while you make multiple attacks, and I imagine few other DMs will. Remember that in order to remain hidden, you must also have concealment, or alternatively, you must have the ability to hide in plain sight.

For as long as you remain hidden, you deny your opponent any Dexterity bonus to Armor Class. You may retain this advantage over several attacks. However, once your opponent spots you (and your opponent makes another Spot check every time you make another Hide check at -20), you lose this advantage.

I don't allow you to regain this advantage by making a Hide check during your next attack, because I require you to move (at least five feet, taking a move action to do so, not a five-foot step) in order to go back into hiding after you've already been spotted. To me, it makes sense that if you try to hide from an opponent who has already spotted you in the same place where you were spotted, your opponent will assume that you're still right there, so that trying to hide in this precise location shouldn't work. This last rule is also my own house rule.

[Azraile]

there are some nasty skill tricks you can get

you can have one for every two levels you have, and they cost 2 skill points each:


Sudden Draw
( Complete Scoundrel, p. 89)

[Manipulation, Skill Trick]

You can quickly draw a hidden weapon to make a deadly strike.
Prerequisite

Quick Draw (PH) , Sleight of Hand 8 ranks,
Benefit

If an opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from you, you can draw a weapon that you have successfully concealed using Sleight of Hand (PH 81) as an immediate action to deliver the attack of opportunity with that weapon. That opponent is treated as flat-footed against the attack with the concealed weapon.

Hidden Blade
( Complete Scoundrel, p. 87)

[Manipulation, Skill Trick]

You can quickly draw a hidden weapon to make a deadly strike.
Prerequisite

Quick Draw (PH) , Sleight of Hand 5 ranks,
Benefit

After you have used the Sleight of Hand skill to successfully conceal a weapon (PH 81), you can draw that weapon as a move action instead of a standard action. An opponent that was unaware of the concealed weapon is treated as flat-footed against the first attack you make in that turn.


Acrobatic Backstab
( Complete Scoundrel, p. 84)

[Movement, Skill Trick]

You dart past your opponent's attacks, ending up perfectly positioned for a devastating counterattack.
Prerequisite

Tumble 12 ranks,
Benefit

If you succeed on a Tumble check to move through an enemy's space, you can treat that enemy as flat-footed against the next melee attack you make against it on your current turn.

Your enemy must be standing on the ground or floor in order for you to use this trick.


Shrouded Dance
( Complete Scoundrel, p. 89)

[Manipulation, Skill Trick]

You can seem to be where you aren't.
Prerequisite

Hide 8 ranks, Perform (dance) 5 ranks,
Benefit

As a move action, you can attempt a DC 20 Hide check. If you succeed, you have concealment until the start of your next turn.


Spot the Weak Point
( Complete Scoundrel, p. 89)

[Mental, Skill Trick]

Your keen eyes allow you to place attacks where they'll do the most good.
Prerequisite

Spot 12 ranks,
Benefit

As a standard action, you can attempt a Spot check to find a weakness in your opponent's defenses. The DC of this check equals the opponent's AC. If the check succeeds, your next attack against that opponent (which must be made no later than your next turn) is treated as a touch attack.

If you use a ranged weapon to deliver the attack, your opponent must be within 30 feet of you in order for you to benefit from the trick.


Group Fake-Out
( Complete Scoundrel, p. 87)

[Interaction, Skill Trick]

You lean left, go right, and leave a whole group of enemies holding the bag.
Prerequisite

Bluff 8 ranks,
Benefit

You can use Bluff to feint in combat (PH 68) against more than one opponent. Make one Bluff check opposed by separate Sense Motive checks for each opponent. For each opponent after the first that you wish to affect, you take a cumulative —2 penalty on your Bluff check.

Example: Lidda wants to feint against a group of three orcs, so she rolls a Bluff check with a —4 penalty. Each orc rolls a separate Sense Motive check opposed by Lidda's adjusted Bluff check result.


Each one can only be used once per encounter, but there rather powerfull tools for a rouge to use.

There is one some where that if you attack some one flat footed and you get a backstab you can stab them again and again till there dead (like shank or something)

[XmonkTad]

If they haven't found you, you're still hidden. If you are standing next to them and have greater invisibility on, attacking doesn't let them find you. Depending on which hide in plain sight you're using, you may still be hidden after attacking. And, just like with an invisible opponent, just getting attacked, or knowing which square you're in, does not let them retain their dex (without uncanny dodge).

[Azraile]

opps missed the one that dose that too


Mosquito's Bite
( Complete Scoundrel, p. 87)

[Manipulation, Skill Trick]

You can deliver a vicious strike without your target feeling a thing.
Prerequisite

Sleight of Hand 12 ranks,
Benefit

If you use a light weapon to hit a flat-footed opponent, you can choose to have the opponent not realize that it has been hit until the start of your next turn. Instead, that opponent reacts as if you had attacked and missed.

Using this skill trick doesn't require an action on your part.

This trick doesn't allow the opponent to ignore any of the other effects of your attack, such as ability damage from poison on your blade or falling unconscious when reduced to fewer than 0 hit points.


so you can attack something several times in a row and it remain flat footed the whole time......

Hide/invisablity
round 1
Spot the Weak Point
round 2
Mosquito's Bite sneak attack flatfooted and touch attack... natural AC only!, still hidden afterwards
round 3
backstab while still hiden... your seen.
round 4
Acrobatic backstab... and then Shrouded Dance your hidden again
round 5
backstab them AGAIN while hidden... your seen again...
round 6
then if they give you an attack of opertunity you can draw two hidden blades and attack them as flat footed and attack with both (using hidden blade and sudden draw) or just attack once with hidden blade if they don't

one attack where there 100% vonerable...
and 5 attacks where there flat footed......


thats...... scary though you would have to be level 12 to do all that lol even if you only have a few of them though, it is scary

add to that levels in shadow dancer or something that gives you the shadow jump skill.... and things just get totaly wrong

[Werephilosopher]

Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action.

If you have a way of Hiding while observed, such as HiPS, and are able to full-attack after moving, such as through pouncing or Travel Devotion, you can Hide as you move towards the enemy, who, assuming they fail their first Spot check, will remain flat-footed against you until they are next able to take a move action to try another Spot check. Since it is still your turn, they will have to wait until after you full-attack them.

Edit: Wait, no, that doesn't work... I didn't see "in a reactive manner". That's dumb :smallannoyed:

[Azraile]

thats why I said shadow dancers make it worce....

they have hide in plane sight
and shadow jump (teleport loses LoS and you drop out in shadows so you can imideatly make a hide check)