[PF] Pushing an animal to do self-harm

[Kryx]

Pushing an animal does not seem to have any restrictions like charm does. Nor does it have any of the same restrictions on retrying like diplomacy does.

How would you handle pushing an animal to do something that would cause itself harm?

Some examples:

Forcing it to walk in the dark when it cannot see
Forcing it to swim when it could drown

In my mind if a command could potentially cause the animal harm it should be more difficult.
You could say that it stops listening once it takes harm and needs to be re-convinced, but that doesn't really work with swimming as it'll probably drown if it got far enough.

Plus if you have 5 points you can convince it to do anything by RAW by taking a 20.

Any suggestions?

[Psyren]

Since you're talking PF here, there is more specific guidance on what you can and can't get various companions to do in Ultimate Campaign - specifically the "Aspects of Control" (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/campaignSystems/companions.html#_aspects-of-control) section. What it boils down to is that you can get most companions to put themselves in harms way for your benefit, but not to do anything overtly or obviously suicidal except in the case of eidolons (and even then, they can refuse an overly capricious whim.)

[Slipperychicken]

The rules already account for having taken damage, which adds 2 to the DC.

I would probably say that obviously self-destructive acts (such as jumping off a cliff or standing in a fire) would warrant a +10 or even +20 to the DC, depending on circumstances.

[WarKitty]

The rules already account for having taken damage, which adds 2 to the DC.

I would probably say that obviously self-destructive acts (such as jumping off a cliff or standing in a fire) would warrant a +10 or even +20 to the DC, depending on circumstances.

For an interesting bit this would probably apply even to doing something that would normally be self-destructive, since an animal isn't going to understand spells well.

[Slipperychicken]

For an interesting bit this would probably apply even to doing something that would normally be self-destructive, since an animal isn't going to understand spells well.

I think that would depend on how familiar that animal is with magic, and whether it has a reasonable expectation of being rescued by magic.

For example, if a Druid routinely casts Feather Fall on his animal companion when it falls (or casts a flight or teleportation spell on it when it is in danger of falling), then ordering it to make a normally-lethal jump might seem like a more reasonable request, and not add as much to the DC.