Balancing casters by making them more powerful

[Anon-a-mouse]

A thought just occurred to me on how to balance higher level casters. Although this seems counterintuitive, the solution could be to make certain spells more potent and available at lower levels. Eg. dispel magic, anti-magic field, mage's disjunction, etc. Any spell which reduces the effectiveness of other spells. This way mages would be less dominant in combat without the need for extensive rewriting of the rules.

[pyroguy_93]

I dont think thats the best way about it. In my campaign, all of my characters have access to spellcasting of some type, so I like to find ways to combat thier abilities.

[SpiderBrigade]

Er...all this would do is make casters better against casters. It still doesn't help the fighter do anything.

[Indon]

Hmm... In such an environment, I'd probably also expand the Use Magic Device skill; give it as a class skill to more nonmagical classes, and allow more things with high rolls, such as the ability to boost your caster level for wand use with a high roll (for, say, wands of that buffed Dispel Magic spell).

[PinkysBrain]

dispel magicHurts the non casters almost as much.

anti-magic field
Too absolute.

mage's disjunction
Will saves to prevent their items being destroyed, just what every fighter is waiting for.

[NullAshton]

Er...all this would do is make casters better against casters. It still doesn't help the fighter do anything.

It's a TEAM BASED GAME. Thus, with casters better against casters, they nullify each other more and the non-casters are more effective against the non-casters.

[Umbral_Arcanist]

Er...all this would do is make casters better against casters. It still doesn't help the fighter do anything.
i suppose the party caster could nullify the BBEG's protections leaving the fight open to smack him about with a greatsword....

[Sardia]

If you're feeling feisty and enjoy some recordkeeping, just make dispel magic, antimagic field, etc, all low level _and_ permanent in duration. When the magic's gone, the magic's gone. No spells work in the area, and no spells or magical effects pass through it either. (Thank you, Larry Niven).

[Shhalahr Windrider]

It's a TEAM BASED GAME. Thus, with casters better against casters, they nullify each other more and the non-casters are more effective against the non-casters.
Still makes the noncasters feel useless. They were only "effective" because Pappa Wizard held the big ol' meanie cleric down for them.

[Matthew]

Up the Saving Throws of Non Casters (or maybe everyone) and decrease the number of high level Spell Slots (preferably through use of Spell Points). That would be my solution.

[NullAshton]

Still makes the noncasters feel useless. They were only "effective" because Pappa Wizard held the big ol' meanie cleric down for them.

...so? That's like saying the rogue is only effective because the fighter provided flanking for him. It's true, yes, but the rogue is still having more fun because he's doing more damage.

[Nevermore]

I find all this talk of casters being better than fighters kinda funny really. I happen to disagree whole heartedly. Recently we played a game where our only Spell caster was a hex blade, and we made up for the lack of spell casting power w/ composite bows to kill casters with a quick volley of arrows, the Hexblade using a Wand Dispel Magic first thing (Our hexblade player LOVES Init bonuses).

Also, it is quite possible for Fighter style characters to tumble/Jump/Run/Bull Rush past the Mage's front ranks and Leap Attack/Power Attack/Whirl wind attack the casters. It is all about Role playing and using your wits to make sure you get the oppurtunity to finish your opponents.

[pyroguy_93]

why bother with all that when you can just counterspell with a bard or wizard

[ZekeArgo]

I find all this talk of casters being better than fighters kinda funny really. I happen to disagree whole heartedly. Recently we played a game where our only Spell caster was a hex blade, and we made up for the lack of spell casting power w/ composite bows to kill casters with a quick volley of arrows, the Hexblade using a Wand Dispel Magic first thing (Our hexblade player LOVES Init bonuses).

Also, it is quite possible for Fighter style characters to tumble/Jump/Run/Bull Rush past the Mage's front ranks and Leap Attack/Power Attack/Whirl wind attack the casters. It is all about Role playing and using your wits to make sure you get the oppurtunity to finish your opponents.

*sigh* Do we always need to get into this? A fighter/monk/whatever just doesn't catch up to a phantom steed riding, invisible mirror-imaged caster. And if by some small miracle another caster uses something along the lines baleful transposition or some such? Say hello to contingency dimension door/teleport.

Oh and Init bonuses are all well and good, as long as the caster doesn't have Celerity.

[Aquillion]

I don't think it's really possible to balance high-level casters. When you get down to it, a high-level warrior is really good at hitting things in arm's reach with a weapon (sometimes things in bowshot range with a bow or whatever), and really good at getting hit with weapons.

There is simply no way those abilities are ever going to compete with the D&D conception of a high-level wizard. You could say that a level 20 fighter takes no damage from weapons and automatically kills on a successful hit, and a wizard with a chance to plan things out would still have more options available and could probably beat your super-warrior with a little thought and preparation.

With that said... thought and preparation are important to any caster, particularly wizards, so if you want to 'balance' them to an extent I would say that the best bet is to keep them off balance. Give the party goals with strict time limits so the casters can't zip off to refresh their spells; throw regular curveballs so they can't always rely on having just the right spell repaired or buff in place. Have the party get ambushed a lot so they can't cast all their buffs and arrange things for optimal use of spells, etc, etc, etc. And, of course, have intelligent enemies go after the casters as soon as they identify them.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Oh and Init bonuses are all well and good, as long as the caster doesn't have Celerity.
Uh, celerity doesn't help if you're flat-footed. You cannot use immediate actions while flat-footed.

And Init bonuses don't exactly matter much once you're opponent's no longer flat-footed anyway.

[PinkysBrain]

That's what foresight is for.

Anyway, with nerve skitter winning initiative ain't that hard.

[NullAshton]

You know, it's funny. People are suggesting that enemies go after the caster to balance it, yet in other threads people are complaining that tanks like fighters are useless because they keep going after the caster, instead of the tank.

Notice something wrong here? Mainly in that by trying to make the fighter useful, you make the fighter useless?

[Aquillion]

You know, it's funny. People are suggesting that enemies go after the caster to balance it, yet in other threads people are complaining that tanks like fighters are useless because they keep going after the caster, instead of the tank.

Notice something wrong here? Mainly in that by trying to make the fighter useful, you make the fighter useless?Well, the idea, at least, is supposed to be that enemies go after the caster, and the fighter-types act as a meatshield to try and keep this from happening. If they assume that the opponents are going to go straight for the casters once they've identified themselves by casting spells, then they can try and use strategies to take advantage of this.

Yes, being a meatshield isn't always fun, but I don't really see how it could work any other way. It's central to the whole idea of casters and warrior-types. It doesn't have to completely govern every warrior-type, but the idea of a meatshield lies behind all the fighting classes in the same way that the idea of a healbot underlies clerics. It's intended to be one of their primary roles in combat.

Of course, as people have noted, clever high-level mages can use spells to make fighters redundant even as meatshields...

Maybe, as others have suggested, the best way to balance mages and give fighters a place to shine in combat is to give fighter-types more abilities and feats focused on being a meatshield, forcing opponents to focus on them, and so forth. Possibly another way would be to make it so mages are more likely to require a meatshield. Make concentration checks harder, and give bigger penalties for taking damage / having taken damage recently or being under attack.

[Desaril]

I think it comes down to balancing power over time. Older versions had differing XP requirements to level, so different classes advanced at different rates. I believe it was because the designers knew that certain classes were more effective at combat at different levels.

Now that all classes advance equally, the balance is not imbedded in the rules, but is still there in the playing. Most low level (lvls 1-3) casters are not as effective in combat as low level melee types. Saving throw DCs are low, non-spell combat options are limited, useful and magic items are rare (not many 1HD creatures carry stuff useful for wizards). However, at later levels the wizards get to show their stuff.

What that tells me is that high level casters should be far rarer than high-level fighters. In any realistic world, low level, "wanna be" wizards die before they get started. A high level caster should be, oh let's say 100 times more rare than a fighting class. Therefore, fighting a high level caster should be a rare and exciting event.

Trying to balance it in the group is more challenging. That's because the group will do everything it can to keep the wizard alive. However, in a realistic world, the wizards should die early and often, thus falling behind the other characters in XP and thus levels. Alternately, the group can constantly take on the services of yet another low-level caster to replace the guy who died. This may not seem "fair" to the character playing the wizard who dies again and again, but it is realistic and just as fair as having a caster who is much more powerful, although he is technically the same level.

I'm sure one of you great minds can figure out a fair level adjustment to keep wizards at the right power level. Perhaps for 5-8 level, they're one level behind, 9-11, two levels, 12-15= 3 levels?

[Matthew]

Nah, Fighters shouldn't have to be anywhere near the Spell Casters. They should be capable of causing significant damage to the enemy. Ideally, 4 Level 20 Fighters should be as capable of dealing with a CR 20 encounter as 4 Level 20 Wizards or any other combination of Base Classes.

[ZekeArgo]

I think it comes down to balancing power over time. Older versions had differing XP requirements to level, so different classes advanced at different rates. I believe it was because the designers knew that certain classes were more effective at combat at different levels.

Now that all classes advance equally, the balance is not imbedded in the rules, but is still there in the playing. Most low level (lvls 1-3) casters are not as effective in combat as low level melee types. Saving throw DCs are low, non-spell combat options are limited, useful and magic items are rare (not many 1HD creatures carry stuff useful for wizards). However, at later levels the wizards get to show their stuff.

What that tells me is that high level casters should be far rarer than high-level fighters. In any realistic world, low level, "wanna be" wizards die before they get started. A high level caster should be, oh let's say 100 times more rare than a fighting class. Therefore, fighting a high level caster should be a rare and exciting event.

Trying to balance it in the group is more challenging. That's because the group will do everything it can to keep the wizard alive. However, in a realistic world, the wizards should die early and often, thus falling behind the other characters in XP and thus levels. Alternately, the group can constantly take on the services of yet another low-level caster to replace the guy who died. This may not seem "fair" to the character playing the wizard who dies again and again, but it is realistic and just as fair as having a caster who is much more powerful, although he is technically the same level.

I'm sure one of you great minds can figure out a fair level adjustment to keep wizards at the right power level. Perhaps for 5-8 level, they're one level behind, 9-11, two levels, 12-15= 3 levels?

Casters... not survivable at lower levels? So all of the battlefield control and direct damage (which at that point is viable) is completly disregarded? No "I cast sleep, go ahead and mop up guys" or "Whee rope trick! no ones finding us!"?

Heres how it goes: lower levels let casters do a bunch of mundane stuff while saving their spells for crazier situations. ~5-7th or so they're dominating the battlefield with control spells but still in need of a bit of help. Around the point they've got 5th to 6th level spells? its over.

[Ramza00]

Make a low level counter magic spell. It is similar to dispel magic but it can be only be cast as an immediate action (or a ready action) in response to another person casting a spell. It can't remove buffs, nor can it disable inherent magic in items and such. Instead its just a magic casting counter.

A Cleric needs 1 round more or less to cast the buffs he needs to do that make him better than a fighter. If his buffs don't go off or are countered the fighter will have enough time to cream him.

As you go up in levels you can make a higher counter magic spell (similar to greater dispel magic is better than dispel magic) and perhap a spell that doesn't counter spells but instead delay the effects for several rounds. (Cleric tries to cast a quicken divine power only to realize the magic won't take into effect for 5 rounds due to the sorcerer casting a certain spell that delays magic taking into effect).

[Jorkens]

In a world where high level wizards are very powerful, it certainly seems sensible that either high level wizards would run the place or there would be some form of antimagic that wasn't too hard to get hold of. And that if high level wizards are so powerful, most BBEG's would have some sort of fairly good 'what happens if I get attacked by a high level wizard' contingency plan...

[ZekeArgo]

Make a low level counter magic spell. It is similar to dispel magic but it can be only be cast as an immediate action (or a ready action) in response to another person casting a spell. It can't remove buffs, nor can it disable inherent magic in items and such. Instead its just a magic casting counter.

A Cleric needs 1 round more or less to cast the buffs he needs to do that make him better than a fighter. If his buffs don't go off or are countered the fighter will have enough time to cream him.

As you go up in levels you can make a higher counter magic spell (similar to greater dispel magic is better than dispel magic) and perhap a spell that doesn't counter spells but instead delay the effects for several rounds. (Cleric tries to cast a quicken divine power only to realize the magic won't take into effect for 5 rounds due to the sorcerer casting a certain spell that delays magic taking into effect).

You do realize that this means that not only is the meleer further indebted to the caster (since otherwise they'd be hosed rather than the fighter being able to do anything to stop the opponent themselves) but it would then just make casters "counter-bots" along a similar vein of 2es cleric heal bot.

[Ramza00]

You do realize that this means that not only is the meleer further indebted to the caster (since otherwise they'd be hosed rather than the fighter being able to do anything to stop the opponent themselves) but it would then just make casters "counter-bots" along a similar vein of 2es cleric heal bot.
Your first complain I dont' see as a problem. It is similar to how in real life medieval armies need infantary to provide a shield wall/a buffer for archers if there is no natural or man made terrain advantage. Anyway it already exists, fighters also need healers to heal there hps during/after battle.

The second complaint about a counter bot is a legimate concern. This is why such a spell needs to be design well where it provides some benefit but not so large of benefit that people will spam it and all magic suddenly more or less isn't cast. Its a balancing act.

[Aquillion]

I don't think counterspelling is really a solution at all. The real balance problem from full casters comes from magic's versatility, not from any one broken spell. A high-level mage or cleric can do anything at any time, essentially; as long as it's still possible for them to get off spells at all, they're always going to be better than a high-level fighter. There is simply no iteration of the rules that is ever going to let a swordsman, no matter how good he is with a sword, ever meaningfully compete with someone who can cast Wish twice a day.

And, er, what about druids? Is there a counterspell to a druid's wild shape ability, too?

One alternate way to limit druids and clerics a little bit is to place strict limits on whatever they bring in from new books: say that they can only use X extra spells/creatures from non-core books, and have to trade out meaningful spells, abilities, or creatures to bring in anything beyond that. It's extremely harsh, and no player is going to like it, but as far as I can tell it's the only way to counter the power creep you get from having every spell ever written in their domains available, or every animal ever in any book anywhere for druids.

For Wild Shape, you could alternatively require that any creatures the druid shapes to be native to their current general part of the world / the area they spend most of their time in or whatever. Again, this would substantially change the nature of the power, but without such a restriction it's simply too open.

Or you could do something really weird, like require that the druid have eaten at least a piece of the animal they want to turn into at some point in their life. Silly and restrictive, but thematic, and being able to gain new forms constantly without having to spend anything (admittedly, new forms that would've been available to you to begin with under the standard rules) would be fun.

[Orzel]

The strength of casters s that they have 10-50 class features that can be changed every 24 hours. Noncaster usually have a couple of features that they are stuck with.

The ways to stop spellcasting are counterspells and forcing hard concentration checks. Countrerspells create counterspell wars are MageSlayers, and readied archers can be avoided by contingency, miss chance, or teleports.

Only a watchhful DM can balance them.

[Raum]

I think changing casters in any major fashion is too much work. After all, it's really not the class that's overpowered, it's the spells. No way do I want to rewrite several hundred spells!

Additionally, I don't think it's necessary to make melee types into mage killers or casters weak enough to be easily killable.

I do think some melee classes should be rewritten to be effective, better at their assumed roles, and fun.

[Maxymiuk]

My solution would be to force wizards to specialize. And I mean "restricted to a single school" kind of specialized. This takes care of the versatility problem right off the bat... wizards become as much a one-trick-pony as the next man.

*hears the outraged cries of the mob*

I better go now... :smallamused:

[Sardia]

My solution would be to force wizards to specialize. And I mean "restricted to a single school" kind of specialized. This takes care of the versatility problem right off the bat... wizards become as much a one-trick-pony as the next man.

*hears the outraged cries of the mob*

I better go now... :smallamused:

Sounds workable-- each class level gives you a level of specialist wizard...
"Hi, I'm a 12th level evoker/2nd level Abjurer" or whatever.
Or everyone just specializes in Alteration.

[Bryn]

I believe that a couple of people (pretty famous homebrewers, though I can't remember their names) were writing a variant like that, with a class for each school of magic.

[ZekeArgo]

My solution would be to force wizards to specialize. And I mean "restricted to a single school" kind of specialized. This takes care of the versatility problem right off the bat... wizards become as much a one-trick-pony as the next man.

*hears the outraged cries of the mob*

I better go now... :smallamused:

That... would actually make a great deal of sense. Possibly make it ToB-esque where each caster was limited to one "school" (possibly splitting and combining the current schools, though not nessicarily) and have to go up different "spell trees" in order to learn higher-level magics.... Would not only remove some of the brokenness inherent to the system, but would also finally remove the clunky Vancian magic system.