Opinions on Invisible Spell and Reflex Saves?

[erok0809]

I know that by RAW making a spell invisible, say Wall of Blades, wouldn't get rid of the Reflex save the player gets to dodge the wall. But as a DM, I feel like that doesn't make sense, seeing as they would have no reason to dodge anything. Would you still give the player their Reflex save, in this or similar situations?

[Anlashok]

Wizards don't need the buff and if we want to talk about what "makes sense".... Well yeah.

The character's uncanny reflexes and the sixth sense every adventurer has lets the character know something is up even if he doesn't know why. So he makes his reflex save and the space he just left is immolated in a fiery explosion.

Makes more logical sense than the spell you're dodging too. So I don't see why it's a problem

[Amphetryon]

I know that by RAW making a spell invisible, say Wall of Blades, wouldn't get rid of the Reflex save the player gets to dodge the wall. But as a DM, I feel like that doesn't make sense, seeing as they would have no reason to dodge anything. Would you still give the player their Reflex save, in this or similar situations?

Invisible Spell is well known for creating a huge pileup of what fellow GitP poster Darrin called "divide by cucumber" logic errors. Regardless of what 'makes sense,' from a rules-balance perspective of what's already in place, it's probably in your best interest to leave Invisible Spell's effects to those explicitly provided by the Feat, rather than extrapolating other conclusions for what an Invisible Spell-ed spell would do.

[eggynack]

Yes, I absolutely would grant a reflex save. First, it makes some logical sense. The spell has no visual manifestation, but people can still hear the fireball pellet whizzing past their head, can still feel the heat they have to avoid, and can still use instinct and reflex to avoid something they can't even really sense. They can also see and hear the caster tossing the fireball, as well as the direction they're tossing it towards, so they know approximately what's coming.

Second, this change to the rules would be incredibly imbalancing. Invisible spell is a frigging +0 metamagic, and quite possibly the most powerful of its kind in the game. And you're letting it ignore saves. That's insane. Irresistable spell is a +4 metamagic from the kingdoms of kalamar player's guide that used to remove the save from spells, until it was errata'd to only grant a +10. This is an insanely valuable ability that you're adding to what is already a very useful feat. It's just not a good idea.

[erok0809]

Okay, that's what I thought the answer would be, for the sake of balance at least. Thanks

[PersonMan]

Honestly, the difference between 'an invisible blast of flame covers everything within twenty feet of you' and 'a visible blast of flame covers everything within twenty feet of you' isn't very big. Either way, if you succeed you somehow dodge half of the fire. With Evasion, you can dodge all of it.

Sometimes, DnD doesn't make sense as written. People, however, can add their own bits and pieces to make it make sense. Dodging a fireball when you're 20' from the edge? Well, clearly the flame doesn't all come at once, but in a random pattern that's difficult but not impossible to take advantage of. It all happens in a second or so, but someone good enough can sometimes manage to stay in a small safe zone and avoid all damage - some people even bumble into it by sheer luck and emerge unscathed from the flames!

An invisible fireball is similar, except the only queues you have to go off of are the heat, sound and the occasional shimmer in the air. The ones who're insanely quick do their thing, the ones who know how to dodge the flames can spot the right signs, and the ones who just sort of walk through and wonder why everyone else is on fire...just keep doing that.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Reacting instinctively even when not actually perceiving the danger is a big part of what Reflex *IS*.

Plus, Invisible Spell is hyper-super broken and if you're not outright banning it, you should be neutering it through restrictive interpretations at every possible juncture that the RAW isn't 100% clear.

So yeah... They get the reflex save.

[Mellack]

I think they should get the save, both for logic and rules reasons. As others have said, wizard spells do not need any new boosts. Also, invisible does not mean they cannot be detected. Your wall of swords would be making fairly loud schwing sound, at least in my imagining. This should easily clue in an adventurer that there is something there.