Does a Ranger need to know?

[Donny_Green]

I'm speaking in terms of favored enemy. Does a Ranger need to know that he's facing an FE type before he can gain the bonus.
I can understand it's relatively easy with humanoid, or goblin kind, or orcs; but what about magical beasts, and arcanists? What if the creature has alterself or wild shape so its type is the same but it looks different?

[atemu1234]

I'm speaking in terms of favored enemy. Does a Ranger need to know that he's facing an FE type before he can gain the bonus.
I can understand it's relatively easy with humanoid, or goblin kind, or orcs; but what about magical beasts, and arcanists? What if the creature has alterself or wild shape so its type is the same but it looks different?

I believe there are rules about this given in the ability description. I don't remember them specifically, unfortunately.

[Donny_Green]

I believe there are rules about this given in the ability description. I don't remember them specifically, unfortunately.

They are particularly vague on this one point. The most is a small reference to "extensive research and training" and that still doesn't cover the half of it.

[Kazudo]

The thing is that Rangers just know. Due to their training and narrow hunting, they know when they're tracking a goblinoid if it's their favored enemy. They know when they're attacking a fae if it's their favored enemy. They know the tracks constructs leave, they know the stench of undead, they know the way that animals feed.

If it's their favored enemy, they just know, so the bonus is natural.

[Chronos]

You could also say that you're so specialized at fighting against <creature type>, that you always attack everything as though it were a member of that type. Against most things, this doesn't help, but if that disguised creature really is one of those, it'll hit them where it hurts.

[jedipotter]

I'm speaking in terms of favored enemy. Does a Ranger need to know that he's facing an FE type before he can gain the bonus.
I can understand it's relatively easy with humanoid, or goblin kind, or orcs; but what about magical beasts, and arcanists? What if the creature has alterself or wild shape so its type is the same but it looks different?

I'd say the ranger must know first, then get the bonus. The idea tthat they just ''somehow'' get a bonus and don't even know about it is just weird.

You can't use a rangers ''training'' as magical detection. Unless you want to say the ranger can magicaly sense the FE. The RAW ranger's FE is martial, so they are not sensing via magic.

I would consider using the rangers FE to detect creature types cheating. Your abusing the rules for personal gain, and it is not ''being clever''.

I'd say a rangers FE bonus comes from training and knowing the foe, and they have to know that they are fighting the foe to use it.

[eggynack]

It doesn't seem all that vague to me. The ability says that you get the bonus against folks of that type. That makes this a one pronged test, that goes, "Are they of this type?" and then no other steps. Call it instinct, or call it specialized knowledge, or call it cool ranger power, but it is what it is.

[Duke of Urrel]

I agree with you, Donny_Green, that the rules are vague in regard to your question. I also agree with Kazudo that rangers "just know" when they attack a Favored Enemy in an unexpected form – but this "knowledge" may be subconscious, a quasi-instinctual reflex developed by training.

I can offer the following passage in support of my opinion. I quote it from the article "Polymorphing Revisited (Part One)" from the series The Rules of the Game by Skip Williams. You can look it up online here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060502a). The passage is taken from a discussion of the Alternate Form ability, which – like the Wild Shape ability – does not actually change the subject's creature type.


Special attacks or effects that depend on the recipient's type or subtypes affect a creature in an assumed form the same way they would affect the creature when it is in its natural form. For example, a ranger whose favored enemy is dragons meets a gold dragon that has assumed the form of a cat (a creature of the animal type). The ranger still benefits from the skill and combat bonuses her favored enemy class feature provides when she interacts with the masquerading dragon. Likewise, a ranger whose favored enemy is animals would not gain any benefits against the dragon, even when the dragon wears a cat's form.

(On the other hand, if a creature actually changes its creature type, for example by polymorphing with the Polymorph spell or any higher-level Polymorph spell that is a modification of it, then the ranger's Favored Enemy bonus does not apply.)

In the example given in the quoted passage, there's nothing that suggests any conscious knowledge is necessary. Certainly a cat looks nothing like a dragon, even though it may have a dragonish combat style, which is what enables a ranger with special training in fighting dragons to apply the Favored Enemy bonus.

Maybe the ranger's training simply kicks in subconsciously. If you're a ranger who fights a Favored Enemy in an unexpected form, maybe all that you notice is that the creature is unexpectedly easy to kill. Maybe you don't know what the altered creature really is until after you've kill it and it has reverted to its natural form.

[NickChaisson]

I think the ranger should have to know before it gets it bonus. IIRC the ranger gets its bonuses due to training in ways to kill that type of creature. But if that creature has a different form, then wouldn't most of those training types be moot?

I would probably give the ranger a hint or something, or let them make a survival check to notice if something was up with the monster they were fighting. Like maybe saying something like "you notice this displacer beast is using similar tactics to goblins" and let them work from there.

[StreamOfTheSky]

No, the ranger does not have to know first. Dear gods, why are you trying to nerf an already niche class feature on a subpar class? Hell, the ranger doesn't even get all the monster ID knowledges as class skills to reliably ID his potential favored enemies! Nothing in FE states he has to ID them first. He just gets the bonus. It's not something he chooses to use or not, it's "always on." He doesn't say, "oh that's an orc, time to use my orc-slaying swing technique." He says, "i'm gonna just use this here orc-slaying swing technique I learned every single time I attack, and if you happen to be an orc....it's your own fault."

As for alteration magic... That's more vague. I'd say if it changes your type, you "count" as the new type in regards to FE (whether for good or ill). If the magic does not change your creature type, you still use the original creature type for the purposes of FE.

In regards to "auto-detecting" FE's....add the bonus in secret if the creature hasn't been successfully identified if it worries you so much. He's only going to have a few FE's, not hard to keep a line in your notes for it, and you surely should know what creature types you're throwing at the party. "But what if he eventually realizes he's fighting X creature more effectively than he expected?" Well, good! He's a ranger, he's trained his whole life to kick the crap out of X creature, I would hope fighting one for several rounds would clue him into the fact he's fighting a member of X type!

[Donny_Green]

No, the ranger does not have to know first. Dear gods, why are you trying to nerf an already niche class feature on a subpar class? Hell, the ranger doesn't even get all the monster ID knowledges as class skills to reliably ID his potential favored enemies! Nothing in FE states he has to ID them first. He just gets the bonus. It's not something he chooses to use or not, it's "always on." He doesn't say, "oh that's an orc, time to use my orc-slaying swing technique." He says, "i'm gonna just use this here orc-slaying swing technique I learned every single time I attack, and if you happen to be an orc....it's your own fault."

As for alteration magic... That's more vague. I'd say if it changes your type, you "count" as the new type in regards to FE (whether for good or ill). If the magic does not change your creature type, you still use the original creature type for the purposes of FE.

In regards to "auto-detecting" FE's....add the bonus in secret if the creature hasn't been successfully identified if it worries you so much. He's only going to have a few FE's, not hard to keep a line in your notes for it, and you surely should know what creature types you're throwing at the party. "But what if he eventually realizes he's fighting X creature more effectively than he expected?" Well, good! He's a ranger, he's trained his whole life to kick the crap out of X creature, I would hope fighting one for several rounds would clue him into the fact he's fighting a member of X type!

Tone it down Stream, no need to make inappropriate comments that might have hit the mark but probably totally missed.

I'm all in favor of the "Just know " clause, but my GM asked about it so I had to check the forums.

No one has any idea's about nerfing the class, there's just alot of rules in this game, and it's always good to see what peeps know.

[Anlashok]

The RAW ranger's FE is martial, so they are not sensing via magic.
There's no such concept as an ability being "martial". Abilities can be Ex (like favored enemy is) but that only means that it doesn't turn off in an AMF. Ex abilities can explicitly break the laws of reality.

I would consider using the rangers FE to detect creature types cheating.
To be fair, your definition of cheating is "playing the game any way other than the way I play it".

[NickChaisson]

Sorry if it seems like my opinion on the matter was some attempt to nerf a class. It was not my intention.
I was more talking about shape-changing magic. As in the magic would change the creatures type (via polymorph or some other spell) sorry if that was unclear.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Sorry if it seems like my opinion on the matter was some attempt to nerf a class. It was not my intention.
I was more talking about shape-changing magic. As in the magic would change the creatures type (via polymorph or some other spell) sorry if that was unclear.

Yeah, that's more unclear. As long as you rule the same way in both cases, it's fair. That means, for example...
Ranger Bob has FE: Goblinoids +8

Gill the Goblin sorcerer polymorphs into a Troll (giant). He is safe(r) from Bob!
Tom the Troll sorcerer, on the other hand, polymorphs into a Bugbear (goblinoid) before facing Bob (don't ask me why). He just signed his death warrant.

Or alternatively, you rule that Gill is still a goblin at heart, so Bob still tears him to pieces but Tom is luckily saved by his irritating internet commenter heritage.

As long as it works both ways, either ruling is fair.

[Flickerdart]

I would consider using the rangers FE to detect creature types cheating. Your abusing the rules for personal gain, and it is not ''being clever''.
Scientists identify substances by putting them through chemical tests; a particular substance will always react in the same way when exposed to the same test. There's nothing unfair about the ranger doing the same thing. If a ranger knows that all goblinoids have a bile-producing organ called a fnard in the elbow (from his studies of goblins and how to best murder them), he can very easily determine whether the foe he's fighting is a goblin by stabbing it in the elbow. If it suddenly starts spewing bile everywhere, then the ranger knows there's a fnard, and therefore he is fighting a goblin.

Just because you lack the imagination to use abilities in creative ways doesn't make doing so cheating.

[NickChaisson]

Yeah, that's more unclear. As long as you rule the same way in both cases, it's fair. That means, for example...
Ranger Bob has FE: Goblinoids +8

Gill the Goblin sorcerer polymorphs into a Troll (giant). He is safe(r) from Bob!
Tom the Troll sorcerer, on the other hand, polymorphs into a Bugbear (goblinoid) before facing Bob (don't ask me why). He just signed his death warrant.

Or alternatively, you rule that Gill is still a goblin at heart, so Bob still tears him to pieces but Tom is luckily saved by his irritating internet commenter heritage.

As long as it works both ways, either ruling is fair.

If the polymorph spell changes the creatures type then its type is changed. If the type changes into something that is the rangers FE then the ranger gets bonuses. If something that was the rangers FE changes its type into something that is not its FE, it does not get bonuses.

The FE ability is dependent on type, so if something is not currently the same type as the rangers FE I don't see why it would get the FE bonus.
It would work both ways and your example is correct.

[Oddman80]

I would consider using the rangers FE to detect creature types cheating. Your abusing the rules for personal gain, and it is not ''being clever''.

I'd say a rangers FE bonus comes from training and knowing the foe, and they have to know that they are fighting the foe to use it.

Wow, jedipotter, I thought your views on cheating that you spelled out in the "can you cheat at d&d" thread were absurd. But you just topped yourself... Wow! Do you go through life fealing constantly persecuted? Like, if you saw someone using a brick as a doorstop, would you get mad and remove it, because someone was using it in a manner it had not specifically been designed for, and doing so for personal gain? What about someone using club soda to get a stain out of a shirt? Is that cheating in life?

[Dunsparce]

They made a "detect favored enemy" spell so the rangers had a way to know if they are fighting one of their favored enemies. Get a wand of it and go crazy, since unless you go Mystic Ranger you won't get many spell slots.

[Kazudo]

The thing is, with Rangers, their Favored Enemy just becomes second nature, reflex, instinct, whatever term you use it. They just know, and that's ok. They may not know everything about their FE (weaknesses, habitats, etc. etc. etc) but have become somewhat skilled in how to tell when that's what they're dealing with. It's the way that you know that the dog actually pulled the dirty diaper out of the trashcan and not the cat even though both had equal opportunity.

Sometimes you just know. Ex abilities really do just work that way. They just do, that's what makes them Extraordinary!

[Svata]

Wow, jedipotter, I thought your views on cheating that you spelled out in the "can you cheat at d&d" thread were absurd. But you just topped yourself... Wow! Do you go through life fealing constantly persecuted? Like, if you saw someone using a brick as a doorstop, would you get mad and remove it, because someone was using it in a manner it had not specifically been designed for, and doing so for personal gain? What about someone using club soda to get a stain out of a shirt? Is that cheating in life?

*claps* That's beautiful.

[Alex12]

I'd say the ranger must know first, then get the bonus. The idea tthat they just ''somehow'' get a bonus and don't even know about it is just weird.

You can't use a rangers ''training'' as magical detection. Unless you want to say the ranger can magicaly sense the FE. The RAW ranger's FE is martial, so they are not sensing via magic.

I would consider using the rangers FE to detect creature types cheating. Your abusing the rules for personal gain, and it is not ''being clever''.

I'd say a rangers FE bonus comes from training and knowing the foe, and they have to know that they are fighting the foe to use it.

Yes, but you think that using a bag of holding to carry more stuff is cheating. Your opinion on the issue of cheating is questionable at best.

On-topic, I'd say that the Ranger just knows. Even if they're in a different shape, the way they carry themselves, the way they move, residual scents, and a dozen different other tiny clues just tell him that this is the kind of creature he's devoted his life to killing.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

The thing is that Rangers just know. Due to their training and narrow hunting, they know when they're tracking a goblinoid if it's their favored enemy. They know when they're attacking a fae if it's their favored enemy. They know the tracks constructs leave, they know the stench of undead, they know the way that animals feed.

If it's their favored enemy, they just know, so the bonus is natural.

This seems innocent, but does thi mean that making listen, spot or sense motive checks instantly identifies anyone using arcane magic to hide their identity. Does it also mean that if you take an organization that you can instantly identify all of their agents. This would make Ranger counter intelligence indispensible.

[Flickerdart]

This seems innocent, but does thi mean that making listen, spot or sense motive checks instantly identifies anyone using arcane magic to hide their identity. Does it also mean that if you take an organization that you can instantly identify all of their agents. This would make Ranger counter intelligence indispensible.
Characters don't always know which bonuses and penalties they are getting. This comes up a couple of times in the rules, most prominently under the rules for cursed items.

[jedipotter]

Scientists identify substances by putting them through chemical tests; a particular substance will always react in the same way when exposed to the same test. There's nothing unfair about the ranger doing the same thing. If a ranger knows that all goblinoids have a bile-producing organ called a fnard in the elbow (from his studies of goblins and how to best murder them), he can very easily determine whether the foe he's fighting is a goblin by stabbing it in the elbow. If it suddenly starts spewing bile everywhere, then the ranger knows there's a fnard, and therefore he is fighting a goblin.

Just because you lack the imagination to use abilities in creative ways doesn't make doing so cheating.

Right, so the ranger attacks a cloaked figure that they can't tell who or what it is:

Player: I roll to attack
DM: Add in your +3 favored enemy bonus
Player: Um, what? The guy in the cloak is a goblinoid? Um, how do I know this...
DM: Um, one round in the future when you hit, you strike it's fnard organ and know it's a goblin....and then um you send that information back in time to right now.
Player: Ah, ok....I'll roll now

[Juntao112]

Never underestimate the power of racism.

[Psyren]

You could also say that you're so specialized at fighting against <creature type>, that you always attack everything as though it were a member of that type. Against most things, this doesn't help, but if that disguised creature really is one of those, it'll hit them where it hurts.

I like this explanation and it works fine on "cloaked figures."

[Flickerdart]

Right, so the ranger attacks a cloaked figure that they can't tell who or what it is:

Player: I roll to attack
DM: Add in your +3 favored enemy bonus
Player: Um, what? The guy in the cloak is a goblinoid? Um, how do I know this...
DM: Um, one round in the future when you hit, you strike it's fnard organ and know it's a goblin....and then um you send that information back in time to right now.
Player: Ah, ok....I'll roll now
FE doesn't bestow a bonus on attack rolls, genius. The player rolls to-hit, hits the goblin, and then gets extra damage.

If your game is so fragile that it can't handle people identifying creature types, you can just not tell the PC that they're getting the extra damage instead of being needlessly obtuse. The salient point is that there are lots of ways to avoid cheating the player out of the bonus they're entitled to, so that you can pick and choose what's most internally consistent for your game. Refusing to consider any of them is a toxic and closed-minded attitude.

[Psyren]

Yikes, let's all simmer down a bit. It's just a game.

To address an earlier point about the knowledge skills - The PF ranger at least can make these rolls untrained. (Also, the PF ranger does get an attack roll bonus in addition to the damage bonus.)

[137beth]

Wow, jedipotter, I thought your views on cheating that you spelled out in the "can you cheat at d&d" thread were absurd. But you just topped yourself... Wow! Do you go through life fealing constantly persecuted? Like, if you saw someone using a brick as a doorstop, would you get mad and remove it, because someone was using it in a manner it had not specifically been designed for, and doing so for personal gain? What about someone using club soda to get a stain out of a shirt? Is that cheating in life?

This post nails it.


However, I would note that RAW I don't think FE actually tells you that you got the bonus, you just get it in secret. Many DMs do not tell the players how much hp a monster has left, so the fact that a few extra hit-points were dealt isn't something the player or PC would know unless they were able to determine the monster's type. They still get the bonus, but they don't automatically know by RAW. I do, however, think it is a reasonable house rule to say that the ranger automatically recognizes their favored enemy.

[jedipotter]

Wow, jedipotter, I thought your views on cheating that you spelled out in the "can you cheat at d&d" thread were absurd. But you just topped yourself... Wow! Do you go through life fealing constantly persecuted? Like, if you saw someone using a brick as a doorstop, would you get mad and remove it, because someone was using it in a manner it had not specifically been designed for, and doing so for personal gain? What about someone using club soda to get a stain out of a shirt? Is that cheating in life?

I would not care about the brick. I'd care about things like Joe Orc lives on the east side of the river, but lies and says he lives on the west side of the river so he gets the regional (insert too close to real life statement here) bonus feat from that area. Or when a Cleric of Pelor collects gold ''for the poor'', but then uses it to build a new house. And so on...

[eggynack]

I would not care about the brick. I'd care about things like Joe Orc lives on the east side of the river, but lies and says he lives on the west side of the river so he gets the regional (insert too close to real life statement here) bonus feat from that area. Or when a Cleric of Pelor collects gold ''for the poor'', but then uses it to build a new house. And so on...
The first thing is cheating, because that character is actively breaking the rules of the game. The latter is presumably not, if it's an in game roleplaying thing. Look, I'm going to just say it. You need to give this thing up. The thing you think cheating is is not what cheating is. It's just not. Just use some other word, which actually reflects what you mean (cheese works, and a few other things are fine), so that folks don't continuously think that the stuff you say along these lines is silly. It's a change that would cost you so little to make, and you'd gain so much out of it.

[Curmudgeon]

Many DMs do not tell the players how much hp a monster has left, so the fact that a few extra hit-points were dealt isn't something the player or PC would know unless they were able to determine the monster's type.
Why would any DM ever provide HP remaining info to players? D&D isn't a video game where everyone has a visible health bar floating over their character. That is, the DM can tell players their own damage numbers and have them keep track of it, but there's no rule stipulating that.

I don't normally give players numerical figures for the damage done to the PCs by their enemies. I'll tell if a blow hits hard or less so, and tell them if they're healthy, lightly wounded, seriously wounded, and near death (i.e., no digital readouts). And I'll do exactly the same for the enemies they're fighting.

[Boci]

Maybe we shouldn't be focusing too much on the mechanics of FE, since they do require believing that a ranger can learn to specifically fight, track and hunt all chaotic evil outsiders (which includes a floating bag of flesh from which animated chains flair, a humanoid creature with wings and seductive powers, an ever eating giant earth worm, a hyena with a stinger tail) from a single "lesson", but requires two to learn the different between optimal hunting of an elf and human.

Personally I believe the skill checks can be instinctual, the ranger can befit from them passively. Damage (and to hit in pathfinder or with the right feat) is more difficult, but even then the bonus can be from a fighting style being once the race doesn't respond to well, but inconvenience the ranger against others. I'd wouldn't tell a ranger a creature was a FE on sight, but after a round in combat I'd say they seemed to be one.

[jedipotter]

The first thing is cheating, because that character is actively breaking the rules of the game. The latter is presumably not, if it's an in game roleplaying thing. Look, I'm going to just say it. You need to give this thing up. The thing you think cheating is is not what cheating is. It's just not. Just use some other word, which actually reflects what you mean (cheese works, and a few other things are fine), so that folks don't continuously think that the stuff you say along these lines is silly. It's a change that would cost you so little to make, and you'd gain so much out of it.


Cheat: to obtain unfair advantage by trickery, as in a game. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game. To position oneself closer to a certain area than is normal or expected. Violating accepted standards or rules; "a dirty fighter"; "used foul means to gain power"; "a nasty unsporting serve"; "fined for unsportsmanlike behavior".

Cheating can take the form of exploits which give players an unfair advantage in multiplayer games. Another type of cheat would be an exploit cheat where an advantage is gained through an unintended game exploit.

Another form of game cheating is when a player does things unforeseen by the creators to permit changes to the way enemies are encountered or objectives met.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Why would any DM ever provide HP remaining info to players? D&D isn't a video game where everyone has a visible health bar floating over their character. That is, the DM can tell players their own damage numbers and have them keep track of it, but there's no rule stipulating that.

That's what he was saying. The players don't see the "hp bar". so secretly deducting some more hp for favored enemy isn't something they'll typically notice. The big exception is with DR, where it could suddenly make the difference in doing damage at all; hard not to notice there.

Also...I sometimes start showing the remaining health of the monsters when they're nearly defeated. Usually when I just want the battle to wrap up and am worried the PCs (also banged up) are going to start going on the defensive to be safe and drag things out. Especially if it's not a plot important fight (like, random encounter). So having the maptools macro display, "Orc soldier took 7 damage! Health reduced to 5/48." (instead of deducting the hp w/o displaying the change; the normal macro button I use for damage to NPCs) is a nice cue for them to just go on and finish it. I'm a lazy, impatient DM keenly aware of the fact we only get 3-4 hours a week to play. :smallsmile:

[Regissoma]

I would think that having a list of your favored enemies and the bonuses for both you and the DM would help. I also think that spells or abilities that changes the type completely not just the subtype make it so that your FE apply differenty(ie. Goblin polymorphed into an fey so you don't get the FE for the goblin anymore). And if you really want to know if something is one of your favored enemies the feat Nemesis was made for it. (Favorite thing for a ranger with nemesis: FE(arcanists) know the location of every arcane spellcaster within 60 ft or in a homebrew game I once played FE(diety pantheon) guys theres a god near us

[eggynack]

Cheat: to obtain unfair advantage by trickery, as in a game. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game. To position oneself closer to a certain area than is normal or expected. Violating accepted standards or rules; "a dirty fighter"; "used foul means to gain power"; "a nasty unsporting serve"; "fined for unsportsmanlike behavior".

Cheating can take the form of exploits which give players an unfair advantage in multiplayer games. Another type of cheat would be an exploit cheat where an advantage is gained through an unintended game exploit.

Another form of game cheating is when a player does things unforeseen by the creators to permit changes to the way enemies are encountered or objectives met.
You can't be obtaining unfair advantage by trickery if the DM is perfectly aware of what you're doing, and is allowing it to happen. Thus, for example, using a bag of holding can never be cheating, as long as the DM knows you're using it. By the same token, saying you're taking charity, but actually using it to buy a house may be cheating in game, and some fellow in game might say, "Why have you cheated me? Is it due to your nature as a cheater?" but the player's actions outside the game are not cheating at all, unless they're breaking the actual rules of the game by doing this.

[nedz]

By RAW he doesn't automatically know, but he doesn't need to.

Favored Enemy (Ex)

At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature from among those given on Table: Ranger Favored Enemies. The ranger gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against creatures of this type. Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.
FE doesn't even give a bonus on any knowledge skills.

Now fluff wise he ought to know so this is likely another dysfunction with FE — we have several related ones already.

[StreamOfTheSky]

By RAW he doesn't automatically know, but he doesn't need to.

FE doesn't even give a bonus on any knowledge skills.

Now fluff wise he ought to know so this is likely another dysfunction with FE — we have several related ones already.

Even if it did give a bonus, it'd have to be a hell of a lot better than +2 if ranger's relying on IDing to get one of his primary class features that rarely comes up as it is already. What is int? Like...the 5th most important stat for Rangers? Yeah, good luck on those DC 10 + HD knowledge checks just to get to use your situational damage bonus, pal!

[SpawnOfMorbo]

I'm speaking in terms of favored enemy. Does a Ranger need to know that he's facing an FE type before he can gain the bonus.
I can understand it's relatively easy with humanoid, or goblin kind, or orcs; but what about magical beasts, and arcanists? What if the creature has alterself or wild shape so its type is the same but it looks different?

The easiest way to deal with the ranger is just give him the choice of Favored Enemy (Type). This way it covers everything of that type. Humanoid, Magical Beast, Outsider, and... Yeah this way the class feature is more useful and you don't have to deal with a lot of details.

If a creature Wildshape into another, treat it as the creature they Wildshape into. This way a creature may hurt themselves accidently by wildahaping into another creature (not much but that arrow hurts a bit more haha).

[eggynack]

If a creature Wildshape into another, treat it as the creature they Wildshape into. This way a creature may hurt themselves accidently by wildahaping into another creature (not much but that arrow hurts a bit more haha).
This doesn't seem logical, as wild shape doesn't cause a type change.

[nedz]

Even if it did give a bonus, it'd have to be a hell of a lot better than +2 if ranger's relying on IDing to get one of his primary class features that rarely comes up as it is already. What is int? Like...the 5th most important stat for Rangers? Yeah, good luck on those DC 10 + HD knowledge checks just to get to use your situational damage bonus, pal!


FE actually stacks in +2 increments
Since Rangers are Skill based Int is not really a dump stat, they are quite MAD though
I said that the Ranger ought to know, not that the Ranger ought to need to know so your point is moot

[SpawnOfMorbo]

This doesn't seem logical, as wild shape doesn't cause a type change.

But as the new shape, you move like you were of the new type.

So your type doesn't change but you rearrange yourself to act closely enough to that type to be considered that type to the Ranger.

So if I turn into a horse, my body would behave like a horse. I move like a horse and my lungs are in the place of a horse thus... A Ranger can determine how I'll move and where to hit me in the lungs.

Doesn't break anything really, heck doesn't even make Wildshape hurt all that much haha. Just a small nice thing to give to the ranger.

[eggynack]

But as the new shape, you move like you were of the new type.

So your type doesn't change but you rearrange yourself to act closely enough to that type to be considered that type to the Ranger.

So if I turn into a horse, my body would behave like a horse. I move like a horse and my lungs are in the place of a horse thus... A Ranger can determine how I'll move and where to hit me in the lungs.

Doesn't break anything really, heck doesn't even make Wildshape hurt all that much haha. Just a small nice thing to give to the ranger.
It's actually kinda the opposite of a good thing to give a ranger. Animals are pretty easy to fight, all in all, given their tendency towards unintelligence and beatstickery, so choosing them as a favored enemy isn't the best idea. Picking human is a better idea a good chunk of the time, though the humanoid splitting is annoying. This is only a ranger buff if the ranger chooses animals, and is a nerf otherwise. As is, you only have the qualities inherent to a particular creature of that type, rather than those inherent to the type itself, unless you're running enhance wild shape (which still doesn't get everything). You don't have the skill points, or the intelligence, or the low light vision, or anything else that is fundamental to being an animal. Also, you could always become a not-animal, if animal FE is so common.

[Donny_Green]

Wow, jedipotter, I thought your views on cheating that you spelled out in the "can you cheat at d&d" thread were absurd. But you just topped yourself... Wow! Do you go through life fealing constantly persecuted? Like, if you saw someone using a brick as a doorstop, would you get mad and remove it, because someone was using it in a manner it had not specifically been designed for, and doing so for personal gain? What about someone using club soda to get a stain out of a shirt? Is that cheating in life?

Dude, save the harsh talk for someone else's thread or I will report you to a moderator.

[Donny_Green]

Characters don't always know which bonuses and penalties they are getting. This comes up a couple of times in the rules, most prominently under the rules for cursed items.

I think this would also give the GM a chance to have a little fun, giving ranger PC hints as to the fact that he/she might be facing an FE.

Give me a spot check.... You notice that there is something familiar about the way this creature moves.

[Donny_Green]

Cheat: to obtain unfair advantage by trickery, as in a game. To violate rules deliberately, as in a game. To position oneself closer to a certain area than is normal or expected. Violating accepted standards or rules; "a dirty fighter"; "used foul means to gain power"; "a nasty unsporting serve"; "fined for unsportsmanlike behavior".

Cheating can take the form of exploits which give players an unfair advantage in multiplayer games. Another type of cheat would be an exploit cheat where an advantage is gained through an unintended game exploit.

Another form of game cheating is when a player does things unforeseen by the creators to permit changes to the way enemies are encountered or objectives met.

If you'll notice that several posts up, I defended you and told the other guys to lay off.

now I'm telling you

KNOCK IT OFF. LET IT GO. OR TAKE IS SOMEWHERE ELSE.

This post was not created so you could talk about what is and is not cheating. This is a post about a singular ranger ability and all it's possible interpretations.

Call it what you want, but stop calling it on my thread.

[eggynack]

This post was not created so you could talk about what is and is not cheating. This is a post about a singular ranger ability and all it's possible interpretations.

Call it what you want, but stop calling it on my thread.
As is so often the case, we are now in asked and answered territory. There aren't multiple interpretations of this ability. Just the one. Anything else falls into rule zero/house rule territory. This isn't really anything so official as "your thread", and I see no reason why other fields of inquiry should not be pursued, unless you seek the answer to some other question.

[Psyren]

As noted previously, the FE bonus could make the difference between a hit or a miss (in PF) as well as the difference between beating someone's DR or not (in 3.5 and PF.)

I think a DM who wanted to be cagey about a target's type could say something like "You got 24 total to hit? You hit it." And the Barbarian gets the same result next round and the DM says "you actually miss." (For an AC 26 monster.)

And then the Barbarian player asks what gives, the DM says "trust me, roll with it."

He can even roleplay it a bit. "You notice there's something about the way this creature moves that almost puts it in the path of {Ranger's} swings/shots. Somehow, the rest of you are unable to take advantage of this flaw."

[Donny_Green]

As is so often the case, we are now in asked and answered territory. There aren't multiple interpretations of this ability. Just the one. Anything else falls into rule zero/house rule territory. This isn't really anything so official as "your thread", and I see no reason why other fields of inquiry should not be pursued, unless you seek the answer to some other question.
First of all it's about staying on topic, or letting the thread die eggynack.

Secondly, this "second discussion' sounds like a bunch of kids yelling back and forth at each other, when they should just be ignoring they guy who they will never play with.

Stay on topic (favored enemy) and act like a damn adult.

[eggynack]

Stay on topic (favored enemy) and act like a damn adult.
I really don't think I'm the one acting in an immature manner, attacking anyone who goes off of your precisely planned rails in your precious thread. There's no onus on you to participate in these discussions that you have no interest in, and there's nothing you're losing from the discussion's existence.

[Juntao112]

First of all it's about staying on topic, or letting the thread die eggynack.

Secondly, this "second discussion' sounds like a bunch of kids yelling back and forth at each other, when they should just be ignoring they guy who they will never play with.

Stay on topic (favored enemy) and act like a damn adult.

It would certainly be odd to require a Ranger to identify the race of an enemy before applying FE bonuses if he does not have the appropriate knowledge skills as class skills.

[Psyren]

Stay on topic (favored enemy) and act like a damn adult.

This is just as reportable as the other stuff you were threatening to report earlier, you know.

I tried to post on topic but it seems this thread has run its course, so, good luck OP.


It would certainly be odd to require a Ranger to identify the race of an enemy before applying FE bonuses if he does not have the appropriate knowledge skills as class skills.

In 3.5 it is indeed odd. In PF he can make the checks untrained (and picking up the extra knowledges isn't a big deal anyway.)

[Donny_Green]

This is just as reportable as the other stuff you were threatening to report earlier, you know.

I tried to post on topic but it seems this thread has run its course, so, good luck OP.



In 3.5 it is indeed odd. In PF he can make the checks untrained (and picking up the extra knowledges isn't a big deal anyway.)
Yes I think it has, because now it's become start a fight with the guy who's trying to stop the fighting.

Which is really BS, but sadly predictable.

Good night all

[Juntao112]

Yes I think it has, because now it's become start a fight with the guy who's trying to stop the fighting.


Some men just want to watch the world burn, Master Bruce.

[Svata]

Another form of game cheating is when a player does things unforeseen by the creators to permit changes to the way enemies are encountered or objectives met.

This. Is. Not. Cheating.

[Oddman80]

Dude, save the harsh talk for someone else's thread or I will report you to a moderator.

It's true. I belittled jedipotters opinions on this thread and called his interpretation of what is "cheating" absurd. This was the third forum thread in 24 hours that got derailed by this discussion with that user calling things out as cheating - things that no one else on the forum supported him with. But this is a forum. Not the q&a thread. If you just wanted the RAW answer to a rules question, post there.. If you want to welcome a bunch up people to have a conversation, use the forum. I am sure you have had a conversation with a group of people before. They don't always keep talking about the thing you started with. Conversations are fluid. And it is unnatural to just ignore someone when they say something absurd in your presence.
And jedipotter had just flat out accused a bunch of people of cheating for trying to solve a problems in a way not thought of by the game designer. And as I said, this was not the first time it happened in the past 24 hrs.

In addition to saying that a ranger using his favored enemy ability to be able to determine if he was in fact facing a favored enemy was cheating, he also has said that Using a bag of holding to make sure you have don't run out of useful supplies was cheating. A character using a bluff check to get something they want in a dishonest manner is cheating (player cheating, not character cheating). Combining two spells that seem to synergies well together is cheating. Picking the deity who has the domain you really want, as the deity for your cleric build is cheating. Picking the spells you want from the available spell list is cheating. Using a spell component pouch per RAW is cheating.


Now as to your original question. I do apologize for never addressing it myself. A ranger does not need to know he is facing a favored enemy in order to get the bonus to damage. Just as someone wearing a ring of protection from evil does not need to know that the foe is evil to gain that protection

It required the dm to play fair though. If the dm is going to hide what things are, than it I sip to the dm to keep track of the rangers FEs for him, and make sure that the bonuses are all given when due.

If a dm want that onus to be placed on the player, than he should let the player know, whether by secret note, whisper or to everyone at table, that the enemy is a FE.

But the ranger could have his eyes blindfolded, ears plugged, and nostrils plugged. Regardless, if he swung and hit the FE (with all the penalties to attempt to do so in that situation accounted for), he would still get the bonus damage, because there were no conditionals placed on Favored Enemy bonus damage at all.