Shadowcraft mage....balancing(?)

[torrasque666]

Does this seem like a reasonable houserule to help balance the shadowcraft mage a bit:

"Addition to Shadow Illusion: Cannot be used to mimic spells with an XP component"
or
"Addition to Shadow Illusion: Must provide XP component if required by spell mimicked."

Namely I ask because it doesn't seem balanced nor fair, even among T1 casters, that with Earth Spell shananigans a shadowcraft mage can emulate things like Miracle or the DCS, things that due to the powerful nature of the spell require a toll to be used. Because we have a shadowcraft mage in my game who uses a heightened Silent Image to mimic frigging everything and it frustrates me to no end. DM doesn't want to get involved, won't take a stance.

[Nettlekid]

The Shadowcraft Mage's extreme versatility goes beyond cheesing out free XP spells. Sure, that's strong, it's part of why Dweomerkeeper is so amazing. But really, it's the sheer versatility. With Signature Spell (Silent Image), you can have a full set of Wizard spells prepared as you normally would, and yet have Sorcerer-esque spontaneous casting with a bigger spell list since every Conjuration and Evocation spell can be cast as you please. The Miracle is the icing on the cake not because it does big things for 5000 XP, but because it can mimic such a wide range of lower level spells of any school. THAT'S what makes Shadowcraft Mage so powerful.

[torrasque666]

The Shadowcraft Mage's extreme versatility goes beyond cheesing out free XP spells. Sure, that's strong, it's part of why Dweomerkeeper is so amazing. But really, it's the sheer versatility. With Signature Spell (Silent Image), you can have a full set of Wizard spells prepared as you normally would, and yet have Sorcerer-esque spontaneous casting with a bigger spell list since every Conjuration and Evocation spell can be cast as you please. The Miracle is the icing on the cake not because it does big things for 5000 XP, but because it can mimic such a wide range of lower level spells of any school. THAT'S what makes Shadowcraft Mage so powerful.

So you can see why I hate it more than a normal wizard right? Especially considering that the rest of our group is a Unseen Seer, a Duskblade/Ur-Priest Theruge, and a cleric who suffers from Paralysis-of-choice(me). I honestly don't hate the Duskblade as much, nor the Unseen Seer, as they still require teamwork to well.... work. Or at least they have yet to demonstrate otherwise in my game. The Shadowcraft mage tends to kinda brag about what he can do and honestly is such a god he doesn't need a team. So kinda why I'm a bit P.O'ed at its versatility. I honestly cannot see a reason for someone so powerful to NEED or WANT to be a part of a team.

[Nettlekid]

I guess I understand your frustration, but trying to find some halfhearted way to nerf Shadowcraft Mage isn't the answer. At least the Shadowcraft Mage doesn't seem to be stepping on other party members' toes? The Unseen Seer is more of a skillmonkey and information gatherer, something the SM can't do. The Duskblade is melee battling with Cleric spell support, something the SM isn't designed for (though it could summon mooks to help out, but that's what they'd do, help.) And you're a Cleric so you can heal, blast, and engage in battlefield control. I would have thought that your issue would be with the Ur-Priest, with the overlapping lists. In the case of the SM, he's best at battlefield control (Wall of X, Summon Monster) and outright blasting, which anyone will tell you is inefficient. Sure he's got a great deal of versatility, but ANY Wizard could be powering through solo with a nonspecialized spell selection.

Perhaps encourage him to actually use Illusion magic more than Conjuration and Evocation? Find things that you can do as a Cleric that he (and the rest of the party) outright can't, and capitalize on those? Even if you point him at everything and fire, he's only got so many spell slots. What is he actually doing to trivialize all encounters and render you all obsolete?

[torrasque666]

I guess I understand your frustration, but trying to find some halfhearted way to nerf Shadowcraft Mage isn't the answer. At least the Shadowcraft Mage doesn't seem to be stepping on other party members' toes? The Unseen Seer is more of a skillmonkey and information gatherer, something the SM can't do. The Duskblade is melee battling with Cleric spell support, something the SM isn't designed for (though it could summon mooks to help out, but that's what they'd do, help.) And you're a Cleric so you can heal, blast, and engage in battlefield control. I would have thought that your issue would be with the Ur-Priest, with the overlapping lists. In the case of the SM, he's best at battlefield control (Wall of X, Summon Monster) and outright blasting, which anyone will tell you is inefficient. Sure he's got a great deal of versatility, but ANY Wizard could be powering through solo with a nonspecialized spell selection.

Perhaps encourage him to actually use Illusion magic more than Conjuration and Evocation? Find things that you can do as a Cleric that he (and the rest of the party) outright can't, and capitalize on those? Even if you point him at everything and fire, he's only got so many spell slots. What is he actually doing to trivialize all encounters and render you all obsolete?

Mostly its because of how high his spell DCs are that nothing the DM can throw at him has a chance or surviving, unless he's using epic level creatures/NPCs. He pretty much followed the Shadowcraft Mage handbook to the letter. And its not so much that he renders us obsolete but that due to his absurdly high DCs, he can just chuck out a freezing for(or something along those lines) and completely remove all opposition meaning all we have to do is walk up and say "I kill it" which no one else really enjoys.

Also, Evil Cleric can't heal, at least not spontaneously. You may have seen earlier that I had been building a Cleric of the Lord of Blades. And its more of a combat cleric. I honestly was happier just being my Juggernaut who was focused on getting larger. Less book work, less decisions about what to prep, more "SMASH!". I'm going to see if there's anyway I can switch back. Then again, high level play might just not be for me. I just feel overshadowed no matter what I do by this guy due to the fact that he can pretty much Miracle his way into anything he needs.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I've played ScM, I really don't think it's that bad, actually. It blasts...which is sucky (and thanks to the feat costs...much worse than a dedicated blaster). It summons...inferior to actual summon spells. It can use nondamaging evocations, but they'll have no effect at all on a will save to disbelieve no matter what % real they are.... The money is in the conj. (creation) stuff, obviously. But allowing SR means you're losing out on the biggest selling point of that subschool.

Ban "Shadow Miracles" and the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (unless you rule that shadow spells don't work outside of the material, shadow, ethereal and possibly astral planes due to others not being coterminous...then you really should allow some way for ScM to not be useless on the other planes at high levels) and it should be fine. You could cap "realness" at 100% as well if you want, but I don't think some extra damage or whatever is game breaking.

Are there specific spells to be mimicked that worry you? Create Magical Tattoo is really nice for the level to cast for free, but not overpowered. Forcecage becomes a 7th level save or die (thanks to the nondamaging evocation clause) which...is several spell levels higher than when save or dies first come on the scene anyway. Contingency just has a focus cost, so you're not saving much of anything there...
What are these xp spells you worry about?

[Nettlekid]

Yeah, this sounds like a matter of your DM just not sending the *right* monsters against you. Monsters with high SR will block him out, while your Unseen Seer and Duskblade can still chop it up. Monsters with Freedom of Movement ignore his main BC, and if you're in the sun then just have one bruiser charge him. The spell DCs are actually not really an issue-If he was tossing out Save or Dies all over the place, then yeah, but the broken part of Shadowcraft Mage is the >100% reality, and that only happens on a failed save. But that's still just damage, he could be doing much worse.

Why can't you Miracle right back? You're a high level Cleric. His strong qualities are versatility, but you can choose from your entire spell list every day. Are you using a Prestige Class? He's got direct damage in the form of Orb of X, you have Flame Strike. Wall of Stone is great for BC. Sure you can't spontaneously heal, but you can prepare Heal and Harm as good as the rest of them. I don't see what he's doing that you can't also do. He can switch us his style spontaneously, but that's a benefit you get for good class planning.

[torrasque666]

Mostly the fact that most of his stuff can become over 100% real if they are disbelieved (because he can use Earth Spell to boost Silent Image from 0 to 11 with both Easy Metamagic and Practical Metamagic drops it back to 9, meaning that its already 110% real, becoming 130% due to the capstone), thus doing MORE effects. It might just be a poor reading on my part though.

As for saves, most enemies don't have a snowballs chance due to the fact that he already has +8 to his DCs making even a Level 0 have a DC of 30, so everything takes extra damage.

[torrasque666]

Yeah, this sounds like a matter of your DM just not sending the *right* monsters against you. Monsters with high SR will block him out, while your Unseen Seer and Duskblade can still chop it up. Monsters with Freedom of Movement ignore his main BC, and if you're in the sun then just have one bruiser charge him. The spell DCs are actually not really an issue-If he was tossing out Save or Dies all over the place, then yeah, but the broken part of Shadowcraft Mage is the >100% reality, and that only happens on a failed save. But that's still just damage, he could be doing much worse.

Why can't you Miracle right back? You're a high level Cleric. His strong qualities are versatility, but you can choose from your entire spell list every day. Are you using a Prestige Class? He's got direct damage in the form of Orb of X, you have Flame Strike. Wall of Stone is great for BC. Sure you can't spontaneously heal, but you can prepare Heal and Harm as good as the rest of them. I don't see what he's doing that you can't also do. He can switch us his style spontaneously, but that's a benefit you get for good class planning.

As for me Miracleing back, I lost two levels of casting due to Ordained champion(we waived some requirements) also, as I mentioned in the above post, I suffer from paralysis of choice. Having such a LARGE list of spells to choose from is just too much for me.

[Nettlekid]

Mostly the fact that most of his stuff can become over 100% real if they are disbelieved (because he can use Earth Spell to boost Silent Image from 0 to 11 with both Easy Metamagic and Practical Metamagic drops it back to 9, meaning that its already 110% real, becoming 130% due to the capstone), thus doing MORE effects. It might just be a poor reading on my part though.

As for saves, most enemies don't have a snowballs chance due to the fact that he already has +8 to his DCs making even a Level 0 have a DC of 30, so everything takes extra damage.

As for me Miracleing back, I lost two levels of casting due to Ordained champion(we waived some requirements) also, as I mentioned in the above post, I suffer from paralysis of choice. Having such a LARGE list of spells to choose from is just too much for me.

Yes, that's the strange technically-RAW reading of it, but I'm saying that if his DCs are really high, then that DOESN'T happen. You take 100% of the effect if they don't make the save, and X*10% reality (which is higher than 100% in this case) if they DO make the save. If they can't beat the Will save then they're taking 100% of the effect, not 130% or whatever.

And okay, there you go! I was going to suggest Ordained Champion. That gives you something to do. You can Swift action cast spells from the War domain, which gives you a better use of action economy than he has. You have Blade Barrier for BC, Flame Strike for blasting, and the Power Word spells for a variety of control. You can fill up your slots with powerful defensive magic like Energy Immunity, Delay Death, and Freedom of Movement, healing magic like Heal to help your allies, Surge of Fortune to get those Nat 20 crits (buy a Vorpal weapon) (remember that you can channel your spells, so getting a crit with your weapon ought to crit with the spell too, right?), Guidance of the Avatar and Divine Insight to get +35 on any skill check to be a better skillmonkey than anyone. You can whip out DMM Persist shenanigans! Persist Greater Consumptive Field and kill baby animals all morning in the name of the Lord of Blades to get an obscenely high CL.

You needn't be paralyzed with choice because you're not a Wizard. A Wizard has to carefully choose what threats they want to cover for the day, and getting around that is what makes the Shadowcraft Mage so strong. You're planning on reducing your Cleric to a BSF, so just...do that. Make a list of spells that you want to have, and hold onto that list every day, changing it only a little when you need to. Look at the Cleric's handbook, and you'll see plenty of handy spells. You won't get better by trying to nerf your ally. Just up your game yourself.

[torrasque666]

So given a Wis of 22 and the following sources:
Complete Adventurer
Complete Arcane
Complete Divine
Complete Psionic
Complete Warrior
Complete Mage
Complete Scoundrel
Complete Champion
Races of Destiny
Races of the Dragon
Races of Stone
Races of the Wild
Frostburn
Sandstorm
Stormwrack
Dungeonscape
Heroes of Battle
Heroes of Horror
Tome of Battle
Book of Exalted Deeds
Book of Vile Darkness
Spell Compendium
Miniatures Handbook
Player's Handbook II
Expanded Psionics Handbook
Planar Handbook
Magic of Incarnum
Dragon Magic
Cityscape
Drow of the Underdark
Players Guide to Faerun
Magic of Faerun
Races of Faerun
Underdark
Champions of Ruin
Champions of Valor
City of Splendors: Waterdeep
Eberron Campaign Setting
Five Nations
Races of Eberron
Sharn: City of Towers
Explorer's Handbook
Secrets of Xen'drik
Player's Guide To Eberron
Magic of Eberron
Faiths of Eberron


What spells for each level would you suggest for a cleric casting as level 13?
Feats: Extend, DMM Persist, Persist, Adamantine Body, Maximize, DMM Maximize

Without Nightstick abuse I only have 8 turn attempts, maybe 12 if I get the ScM to DCS out Diehard for more Extra Turning.

Alternatively, what would be another good BFS type prestige class for a cleric that would still get me 9ths? I got two levels I haven't decided on yet.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Shadow Miracles doesn't work. Shadow illusions can only mimic spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, not the character's Sorcerer or Wizard spell list. It doesn't matter whether or not the spell is on his list, that doesn't miraculously make it a Sorcerer/Wizard spell for anyone else, nor does it make it a Sorcerer/Wizard spell for purposes of any other game mechanics except which spells he's able to prepare in his own spell slots and use spell trigger/completion items of. Adding spells to your own class spell list, regardless of what class that is, does not modify the spells you or anyone else can cast via Shadow Evocation/Conjuration or other shadow illusions such as from Shadowcraft Mage. If this were not the case, then you can point to that guy over there who has Arcane Disciple for the Luck domain and has turned Miracle into a Sorcerer or Wizard spell, making it so you don't even have to invest in that feat to use it.

Furthermore, Miracle itself has a built-in "if you use it for one of these functions, it costs 5,000 xp" that is part of the spell's effect and carries over at 110% or more just like all the rest of the spell's effect, so chances are he'll end up paying even more than the normal XP cost for that when he emulates it.


As for your evil combat cleric, let this be a lesson that if BoED is available, you should always be good aligned when playing a prepared spellcaster. Greater Luminous Armor alone is enough to make that worthwhile, and you can even cast Magic Vestment on that spell effect. Also, you should never ever lose caster levels on a combat cleric. Go Cloistered Cleric 6 (5)/ Divine Oracle 4/ (Seeker of the Misty Isle 1)/ Contemplative 10 with Persistent Divine Power, and use the Frog God's Fane in CS to get your Skill Focus prerequisite without spending a feat on it. For now, just hire an NPC Psion for a Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) to get Fell Drain, Extra Turning, and Craft Rod so you can make your own Night Sticks and have dozens of Persistent Fell Drain Cloud of Knives all day in addition to Stormrage, three Holy Stars, Divine Power, etc. If you got a domain with Fire Shield, have one in each mode with Persistent and Fell Drain. Get the Spell domain with Pearls of Power to use (Greater) Anyspell multiple times, for persistent Wraithstrike, Shield (with Magic Vestment), Draconic Polymorph into a War Troll, etc. If you can DCS then use an Elf race (Snow Elf is +2 Dex, -2 Cha) and shuffle out all four martial weapon proficiencies for four more feats, get Selective Spell and use it with Persistent AMF. Type dndtools into google if any of this is from a book you don't have.

[Gabrosin]

The ideal way to gain uses of DMM: Persist is to obtain multiple turning pools, but you may be past the ability to achieve that. By RAW, you can have a separate pool for turning undead, rebuking undead, destroying undead (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft adventure), and rebuking dragons (Dragon Magic, I think). Extra Turning applies to each of them, as does your charisma bonus. Those all 100% apply to DMM unless your DM overrules RAW; you could make a case for other turning pools offered by various domains applying for DMM as well.

Your DM probably should not allow shadow miracles, or greater than 100% reality. But if he does, that's his call. Your best option is probably to speak to the ScM and see if he'll tone it down a bit, and not go straight for kill spells that will end encounters.

[Andion Isurand]

I think if you cap the 'realness' of a given shadow spell to 100%, and then use a 100% shadow effect to duplicate a conjuration (creation) effect to which spell resistance normally doesn't apply, then spell resistance shouldn't apply to the duplication, and there shouldn't even be a save to believe or disbelieve the effect. At 100%, it should just be an actual duplication of the effect.

I also don't think duplicating an effect should let get you out of having to pay its exp cost.

Although, I don't think the the Dark Chaos spells should cost exp... as long as its not leading to limitless feats through the use of magical locations or similar means of gaining extra feats. However, instead of an exp cost, they should alter the Dark Chaos spells so there's some kind of factor that limits how often you can use them. Perhaps they could add a "sacrifice" component to each of the Dark Chaos spells, that causes 2d4 ability burn to the ability score required to cast the spell, which must heal naturally over time. Since it takes a spellcasting score of at least 18 to cast either spell, you know the caster can sustain up to 8 points of ability burn.

You could also increase their spell level to 9 for the cleric, so they can't be duplicated by miracle.

Something like this: Revised Dark Chaos Spells (http://magerune.blogspot.com/2014/06/revised-dark-chaos-spells.html)

[torrasque666]

As for your evil combat cleric, let this be a lesson that if BoED is available, you should always be good aligned when playing a prepared spellcaster. Greater Luminous Armor alone is enough to make that worthwhile, and you can even cast Magic Vestment on that spell effect. Also, you should never ever lose caster levels on a combat cleric. Go Cloistered Cleric 6 (5)/ Divine Oracle 4/ (Seeker of the Misty Isle 1)/ Contemplative 10 with Persistent Divine Power, and use the Frog God's Fane in CS to get your Skill Focus prerequisite without spending a feat on it. For now, just hire an NPC Psion for a Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) to get Fell Drain, Extra Turning, and Craft Rod so you can make your own Night Sticks and have dozens of Persistent Fell Drain Cloud of Knives all day in addition to Stormrage, three Holy Stars, Divine Power, etc. If you got a domain with Fire Shield, have one in each mode with Persistent and Fell Drain. Get the Spell domain with Pearls of Power to use (Greater) Anyspell multiple times, for persistent Wraithstrike, Shield (with Magic Vestment), Draconic Polymorph into a War Troll, etc. If you can DCS then use an Elf race (Snow Elf is +2 Dex, -2 Cha) and shuffle out all four martial weapon proficiencies for four more feats, get Selective Spell and use it with Persistent AMF. Type dndtools into google if any of this is from a book you don't have.

Hell all of this is from books I don't have, I rely entirely on the internet for my stuff(hence my aversion to Dragon). But holy sacks of Bahamut that's a lot of stuff to consider. That just seems like overkill.


Shadow Miracles doesn't work. Shadow illusions can only mimic spells from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, not the character's Sorcerer or Wizard spell list. It doesn't matter whether or not the spell is on his list, that doesn't miraculously make it a Sorcerer/Wizard spell for anyone else, nor does it make it a Sorcerer/Wizard spell for purposes of any other game mechanics except which spells he's able to prepare in his own spell slots and use spell trigger/completion items of. Adding spells to your own class spell list, regardless of what class that is, does not modify the spells you or anyone else can cast via Shadow Evocation/Conjuration or other shadow illusions such as from Shadowcraft Mage. If this were not the case, then you can point to that guy over there who has Arcane Disciple for the Luck domain and has turned Miracle into a Sorcerer or Wizard spell, making it so you don't even have to invest in that feat to use it.

This is his logic on why he is able to cast Miracle:
(i) A spell is a sorcerer or wizard spell if and only if it is on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.
(ii) Arcane Disciple adds the spells on the selected domain list to "your class spell list."
(iii) For a Sorcerer or Wizard character, "your class spell list" refers to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.
(iv) By (ii) and (iii), Arcane Disciple (luck) adds, for you, miracle to the Sorcerer/Wizard list (for a Wizard or Sorcerer).
(v) By (i) and (iv) miracle becomes a sorcerer or wizard spell, for you.

I'm telling him it needs to specifically be on the Sorcerer/Wizard list to be a Sorcerer/Wizard spell and that Arcane Disciple doesn't add the Sorc/Wiz tag to a spell, only adding those spells to ones you personally can learn. So he has Sorc/Wiz and Luck on his list, but that doesn't make Luck spells Sorc/Wiz ones or viceversa.

[Andion Isurand]

If for some reason, there is a hang up on the language of what spells one can duplicate using SCM... but he still wants to work with the miracle spell...

Two levels in Wyrm Wizard after 16 levels worth of wizardly spellcasting progression, can get miracle added to his wizard class list, but in such a manner that it is not limited in how often he can prepare it per spell level. Sure, he will lose one level of wizardly spell progression at the level he gets miracle added to his spell list, but he can still max his wizard slots by level 21 and get a feat like Practiced Spellcaster.

This method also doesn't require him to be of a certain alignment or worship a certain deity, like the Arcane Disciple feat does... nor does he need to be a Shadowcraft Mage at all.

[HammeredWharf]

Balancing SCM is a futile endeavor in my opinion. I just ban it in all of my games, because it's an OP wizard PRC that uses a whole bunch of ridiculous, poorly written rules and slows the game down when the players insist to dig through the books every round to find the perfect spell for the SCM to cast. Unfortunately for you, even DMM: Persist cheese can't really come close to it, as it requires actual effort on the player's part and can be dispelled rather easily. Especially with Ordained Champion, which is a very nice class, but pretty low on the cheese-o-meter.

People often complain about Schrödinger's wizards in optimization topics, but SCM is a Schrödinger's wizard by RAW. It's as broken as it sounds. When you add Earth Spell shenanigans, it gets much, much worse.

[torrasque666]

The more and more I hear about how unbalanceable this PrC is, the more I'm tempted to just leave the group. I honestly don't care if the guy plays as broken as he can, I don't think I want to play with a guy who CAN be as broken as he wants. A self-imposed limit is just that, self imposed, and if he decides he doesn't want to just be a willynilly support, what's to stop him?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This is his logic on why he is able to cast Miracle:
(i) A spell is a sorcerer or wizard spell if and only if it is on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.
(ii) Arcane Disciple adds the spells on the selected domain list to "your class spell list."
(iii) For a Sorcerer or Wizard character, "your class spell list" refers to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.
(iv) By (ii) and (iii), Arcane Disciple (luck) adds, for you, miracle to the Sorcerer/Wizard list (for a Wizard or Sorcerer).
(v) By (i) and (iv) miracle becomes a sorcerer or wizard spell, for you.

I'm telling him it needs to specifically be on the Sorcerer/Wizard list to be a Sorcerer/Wizard spell and that Arcane Disciple doesn't add the Sorc/Wiz tag to a spell, only adding those spells to ones you personally can learn. So he has Sorc/Wiz and Luck on his list, but that doesn't make Luck spells Sorc/Wiz ones or viceversa.

Wings of Cover, Wings of Flurry, and many other spells in Races of the Dragon and Dragon Magic are only on the Sorcerer spell list, as well as Mnemonic Enhancer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mnemonicEnhancer.htm) and similar which only appear on the Wizard list, making them ineligible for Shadow Evocation/Conjuration or similar because being on just one list is not the same thing as being on the Sorcerer/Wizard list. If he wants to use that reasoning, then he'll have to take levels in both Sorcerer and Wizard, and take Arcane Disciple twice to add it to each list. Luckily, while you can take Arcane Disciple more than once, you cannot take it twice for the same domain, so he'll have to find two different domains which each have Miracle on their list, and find a deity who offers both domains, in order to make that work by the above reasoning.

Or you can just call him out as a cheater in front of the whole group.

[Old Man]

^ What you said would make sense if it applied to any spells that showed up on both lists... But since it states.. any sorcerer or wizard spell it is not dependent on being available in both lists.


Beginning at 3rd level, a shadowcraft mage is able to infuse some of her figments (see the list below) with material from the Plane of Shadow, making them partially real. The subschool of these spells changes from figment to shadow. A shadowcraft mage can use the altered spell to mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spell

[torrasque666]

Wings of Cover, Wings of Flurry, and many other spells in Races of the Dragon and Dragon Magic are only on the Sorcerer spell list, as well as Mnemonic Enhancer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mnemonicEnhancer.htm) and similar which only appear on the Wizard list, making them ineligible for Shadow Evocation/Conjuration or similar because being on just one list is not the same thing as being on the Sorcerer/Wizard list. If he wants to use that reasoning, then he'll have to take levels in both Sorcerer and Wizard, and take Arcane Disciple twice to add it to each list. Luckily, while you can take Arcane Disciple more than once, you cannot take it twice for the same domain, so he'll have to find two different domains which each have Miracle on their list, and find a deity who offers both domains, in order to make that work by the above reasoning.

Or you can just call him out as a cheater in front of the whole group.

I was using Sorc/Wiz rather than typing out Sorcerer or Wizard because I've been playing a lot of pathfinder and thats how its specified there. Also I'm lazy.

EDIT: And I see he has joined the discussion.

[jiriku]

A wise course would be to leave rules interpretations to the DM.

Your job is to pimp your cleric. Cleric is one of the most powerful classes in the game, and you've made some great choices and have a lot of options on the table, so that shouldn't be hard to do. Since Old Man is probably at least passingly familiar with the cleric list after trawling it for good shadow miracle candidates, maybe he can work with you on this as well.

Here are some spells I favor from the cleric list (you can't cast all of these yet, but I'll list what I know/use)
choose destiny RoD 164
greater consumptive field SC 51
mass death ward PH 217
righteous wrath of the faithful SC 177
sheltered vitality SC 188
mass spell resistance SC 199
surge of fortune CC 128


Hope that helps. High-level d&d is markedly different from lower-level play, and if you're not yet comfortable with it and you're playing with people who are, it's easy to feel like a guy on a sailboat accompanying a carrier task force. Stick with it; it's a blast once you get your sea legs.

[torrasque666]

Heh, I don't think the Perverted Old Man is going to be helping me much, considering that we can be set at each other's throats over something as simple as "Oh, interesting thing I found out. Just because you have access to the Luck domain doesn't give you the ability to cast things from them using Shadow Illusions. Only spells with the Sorc/Wiz tag. So while thats a moot point now, you actually couldn't do the DCS earlier."

And then we get into hours long argument over words. I don't like that we can be set off that easy, especially considering I don't feel any sort of animosity towards him or his character really, just the way he talks himself up to be practically untouchable. I certainly don't hold this frustration towards the other guy(4th member just quit due to the schedule fluctuating too much) and not towards any member of my group. The Ur-Priest just left so that was why I had been trying to build one earlier. The unseen seer is built around invisible sneak attacks and thus gets boned with true seeing. I freeze up at preparing my spells. Last char of mine could roll reflex to save his life. Highest tier before we had such a massive group switch was 3. I guess that just comes with the territory of being the old guard.

[jiriku]

I suppose it's easy to feel attacked when a player suggests that a key part of your build is invalid. Still, I think you've got the foundations for a great character. I actually had a similar problem the first time I played cleric; I'm a wizard guy since 1st edition and when I rolled a cleric I couldn't tell what I was supposed to do. Divine Metamagic was a wake-up call that really expanded my thinking. Now I sometimes don't even bother with DMM on a cleric because there's just so many options I want to play with.

What domains have you got? They might offer some interesting options.

[torrasque666]

Its a Cleric of the Lord of Blades so I went with Warforged and Artifice for the first two, while Ordained Champion tosses in War. And I recently came into over 130k in gold so I am open to ideas for gear. Currently got a Peripat of Wisdom +6, Priestly Belt, Gauntlets of War and a Cloak of Charisma +2. Thinking of upgrading that to a +6, or getting an inherent +5 Wis.

[Old Man]

In reply to


"Oh, interesting thing I found out. Just because you have access to the Luck domain doesn't give you the ability to cast things from them using Shadow Illusions. Only spells with the Sorc/Wiz tag. So while thats a moot point now, you actually couldn't do the DCS earlier."

I said


We went over this before... It is not only spells with the Sorc/Wiz tag its any sorcerer or wizard spell... So DCS is okay... Since

(i) A spell is a sorcerer or wizard spell if and only if it is on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.
(ii) Arcane Disciple adds the spells on the selected domain list to "your class spell list."
(iii) For a Sorcerer or Wizard character, "your class spell list" refers to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.
(iv) By (ii) and (iii), Arcane Disciple (luck) adds, for you, miracle to the Sorcerer/Wizard list (for a Wizard or Sorcerer).
(v) By (i) and (iv) miracle becomes a sorcerer or wizard spell, for you.

and

Beginning at 3rd level, a shadowcraft mage is able to infuse some of her figments (see the list below) with material from the Plane of Shadow, making them partially real. The subschool of these spells changes from figment to shadow. A shadowcraft mage can use the altered spell to mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spell at least one level lower than the illusion spell.

Now lets put this in perspective. On multiple occasions I have told him that I like him as a player and I respect him and his choices. On multiple occasions he has told me to my face over chat that he doesn't feel the same way. And that he has lost all respect for me just because I don't agree with him with everything he says. He is constantly trying to tell me how to play my character and this all started because I use my only phantasimal killer spell to kill a dragon that he wanted to kill with no interfering. What does that mean for the party, we have to sit back and watch as they duke it out doing nothing for the entire time the grapple fight goes on. In another fight I was able to lock down a mass of the enemy minions (they were basically 1 hp) and the 3 real enemies a caster a cleric and a monk I think using Freezing Fog... Making it easier for the team to take them down. If I play battlefield control I am making it too easy for them he claims and doesn't like it, if I kill stuff he says I take away his purpose as DPS since that all his character was optimized to do... I have stated multiple times I am willing to work with the group on what they want me to do so they game is enjoyable for everyone. But instead all he does is try to find any fault he can and then claims that I am being unreasonable. I don't know what do with him? Is their anything I can do to please him and yet still play a character I want to play? I am not a glory hog if I can save a player by using celerity and benign transposition I would do even if it means it leaves me vulnerable to attack and missing a turn, so long as it allows the character to come into play and do his stuff. I am not trying to grandstand and solo everything, I am just trying to my best to assist. The GM broke character wealth we are rolling in about a million plat. I do not try to break the game. I am just frustrated at what more there is to do :smalleek:

Also I am always willing to help him, any time all he has to do is ask. I am even willing to work around his self gimping himself due to his own ideals on what he should or shouldn't want to take. All the power to him if he wants to play a certain way and limited himself. But choosing to limit yourself does not mean that others must limit themselves also.

[jiriku]

Oh wow. Artifice is a really sweet domain; that's a great pick.

With the party you've got, I think there's really a potential to take advantage of some group synergies. For example, you've got symbol of pain, symbol of weakness, and symbol of insanityon your class list. Scribe them on your shield, or chest, or battle standard. The SCM could cast shadow miracle permanency for you and make them permanent. Keep them covered out of combat, and then as a move action or a free action, reveal them in combat -- instant chaos and disruption. You could DCS for the Sudden Maximize feat and cast symbol of weakness maximized for extra crunchy goodness too. Nothing says "tell your god the lord of blades sends his regards" like 18 points of Strength damage followed by an axe to the head. I'd also think about blasphemy, and its cousins. Depending on party makeup and your opponents, greater consumptive field + blasphemy can be Game Over for the bad guys. The weakness effect could combine excellently with symbol of weakness; -5d6 points of Strength should render most opponents helpless or severely weakened.

In general, if you're using a morale buff, a deflection buff, a resistance buff, and a profane buff, you should have the party's attacks, damage, saves, and skill checks boosted by +4 or more; combine that with appropriate debuffs and most level-appropriate foes will fold up like origami. Really, I think the big problem is that your DM may not be comfortable enough with high-level games to create anything that will really challenge you. :smallcool:

[StreamOfTheSky]

Balancing SCM is a futile endeavor in my opinion. I just ban it in all of my games, because it's an OP wizard PRC that uses a whole bunch of ridiculous, poorly written rules and slows the game down when the players insist to dig through the books every round to find the perfect spell for the SCM to cast. Unfortunately for you, even DMM: Persist cheese can't really come close to it, as it requires actual effort on the player's part and can be dispelled rather easily. Especially with Ordained Champion, which is a very nice class, but pretty low on the cheese-o-meter.

People often complain about Schrödinger's wizards in optimization topics, but SCM is a Schrödinger's wizard by RAW. It's as broken as it sounds. When you add Earth Spell shenanigans, it gets much, much worse.

Seriously...WTF?

DMM Persist Cleric is way more broken than ScM. Finding strong, short duration buffs to exploit persistent spell's broken-on-base-priniciples "I don't care what the original duration was" is not hard, and a one time effort. ScM is the one that requires actual effort, as you are basically running spontaneous use of gimped versions of 1.5 schools of magic (one of which sucks even at full strength) and it's up to you to find the right tool (spell) for the task at hand each time. In what world is that easier than casting the same overpowered buffs every single day? You say it takes no effort right after complaining about how much it slows the game down while the player engages in lots of effort to figure out how to use it.

You think both are OP and ban both, fine. I think DMM: Persist is far worse, but maybe your threshold for "broken" is lower than mine. But to go on a tirade against ScM and then lament how the poor DMM: Persist cleric can't keep up? Seriously, WTF?

And sorry to single you out, it's been several people now and it's starting to bug me.

ScM can do 4 things spontaneously:
Cast direct damage spells.
Cast nondamaging evocations that do absolutely nothing on a will save, before even getting into the save the spell itself grants.
Cast summoning spells.
Cast creation spells that allow SR.

It sounds to me people's problems are mainly shadow miracles (a combo that might not even be RAW-legal and is a specific exploit that *should* be banned), and...some sort of synergy with the Dark Chaos Shuffle, which itself is the problem and should always be banned. Because I know ScM is not the only way to get that working.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're using a shadow illusions to emulate Miracle, then using those shadow miracles to emulate Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos, you need to follow all of the wording of the effect section (not the xp cost/component section) of Miracle:
"When a miracle duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm)"

Shadow Miracles for the DCS still carry at least the same XP cost as just casting the DCS normally. Each of those DCS feats cost him 500 xp, end of story. If his 10th level shadow illusions are greater than 100% reality (probably 140% or 160%), then he pays that much more xp for each of those since that cost is part of the effect of the shadow miracle. Since he's already used that, then these costs need to be deducted from the character's current xp total. As I said, either way you look at it he needs to be called out as a cheater.


As for what you should do with your Cleric, if he's ruining the game for everyone else then get Selective Spell and use that with a persistent (sudden) widened AMF. Get Moment of Prescience from a domain with spontaneous domain casting in PH2 to cast it more than once/day, and use that along with Sign to boost your initiative. Get a higher initiative than him, charge in, and put the opponents inside your AMF so you can fight them without his interference. Or just split the party so he's by himself or kill his character in his sleep, you are evil after all.

[torrasque666]

If I felt he was ruining the game for everyone, I probably would have already killed him. Warforged don't sleep after all. Though thank you for that clarification on using shadow miracles for DCS.


If you're using a shadow illusions to emulate Miracle, then using those shadow miracles to emulate Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos, you need to follow all of the wording of the effect section (not the xp cost/component section) of Miracle:
"When a miracle duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm)"


Does this also hold true for a spell such as Dragon Ally? Or rather, any spell which has a cost listed in the effects, not the components?

[HammeredWharf]

Seriously...WTF?

DMM Persist Cleric is way more broken than ScM. Finding strong, short duration buffs to exploit persistent spell's broken-on-base-priniciples "I don't care what the original duration was" is not hard, and a one time effort. ScM is the one that requires actual effort, as you are basically running spontaneous use of gimped versions of 1.5 schools of magic (one of which sucks even at full strength) and it's up to you to find the right tool (spell) for the task at hand each time. In what world is that easier than casting the same overpowered buffs every single day? You say it takes no effort right after complaining about how much it slows the game down while the player engages in lots of effort to figure out how to use it.

You think both are OP and ban both, fine. I think DMM: Persist is far worse, but maybe your threshold for "broken" is lower than mine. But to go on a tirade against ScM and then lament how the poor DMM: Persist cleric can't keep up? Seriously, WTF?

And sorry to single you out, it's been several people now and it's starting to bug me.

ScM can do 4 things spontaneously:
Cast direct damage spells.
Cast nondamaging evocations that do absolutely nothing on a will save, before even getting into the save the spell itself grants.
Cast summoning spells.
Cast creation spells that allow SR.

It sounds to me people's problems are mainly shadow miracles (a combo that might not even be RAW-legal and is a specific exploit that *should* be banned), and...some sort of synergy with the Dark Chaos Shuffle, which itself is the problem and should always be banned. Because I know ScM is not the only way to get that working.

I used "effort" in an in-character sense, but that probably wasn't a good idea. I meant resources. People generally dump a lot of feats into turning attempts.

DMM: Persist has a few key weaknesses:
1) It's extremely predictable. One of the most predictable caster builds out there, really.
2) Dispel. You can avoid dispels in some ways like rings of counterspelling, but if someone is DMing for a borderline TO group, they should be able to deal with those ways.
3) It uses archery and melee attacks, both of which can be shut down rather easily.

Schrödinger spells, on the other hand, are almost impossible to counter without passive-aggressive behavior like using only enemies with magic immunity. In other cases SR isn't much of a problem with the right tricks, such as Assay Spell Resistance. Conjuration [Creation] is the best subschool of magic in the game and you get all of it, spontaneously. That's nasty.

[Necroticplague]

Does this also hold true for a spell such as Dragon Ally? Or rather, any spell which has a cost listed in the effects, not the components?

Um, dragon ally does have its XP cost listed as a component. So you can use Silent Image (dragon ally) without paying the XP cost. Oddly enough, you would still have to pay the dragon, and even pay it more than normal, since its payment is part of its effect. Assuming you don't willingly fail your save to disbeleive, and thus only get a 100% real one.

Permancy would be a bit of an odd one, though. Paying xp is listed as part of its effect, but also as a component.

[torrasque666]

Um, dragon ally does have its XP cost listed as a component. So you can use Silent Image (dragon ally) without paying the XP cost. Oddly enough, you would still have to pay the dragon, and even pay it more than normal, since its payment is part of its effect. Assuming you don't willingly fail your save to disbeleive, and thus only get a 100% real one.

Permancy would be a bit of an odd one, though. Paying xp is listed as part of its effect, but also as a component.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was Permenancy ever errata'd to increase the applicable spells? And I was referring to the gold cost.

Also, side note: What are some good ways to increase my save DCs? I'm currently at +10 from stats(30 wis[18 start -2 racial +3 levels +6 Peripat +5 tome]) but what are some more items I can use?

[Old Man]

If you're using a shadow illusions to emulate Miracle, then using those shadow miracles to emulate Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos, you need to follow all of the wording of the effect section (not the xp cost/component section) of Miracle:
"When a miracle duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm)"

Shadow Miracles for the DCS still carry at least the same XP cost as just casting the DCS normally. Each of those DCS feats cost him 500 xp, end of story. If his 10th level shadow illusions are greater than 100% reality (probably 140% or 160%), then he pays that much more xp for each of those since that cost is part of the effect of the shadow miracle. Since he's already used that, then these costs need to be deducted from the character's current xp total. As I said, either way you look at it he needs to be called out as a cheater.

Hmm.. The above statement is incorrect. Since the spell is made of quasi-real material and you are not casting shadow miracle itself but a mimicking it so all costs from the spell are null and void since you are not casting the spell itself. We are not requesting a miracle but creating the effects given by the spell. Using a weird analogy it would be like saying that someone creating a fake gucci bag would have to pay the same cost in materials and effort as it would to create a real gucci bag.

As for dragon ally... Paying the dragon that doesn't really exist? Sure if you want I can negotiate payment *wink wink* then hit it with a dispel magic and it would be gone when it came time to pay. Can this be done with a real dragon? No... This is because a real dragon is real while a shadow mimicked dragon is not. Shadow mimic spells are just fake copies, they emulate spells from a certain list and therefore do not require the spells costs, can be disbelieved and have SR against them.

Funny thing about miracle it states.. "Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 5,000 XP because of the powerful divine energies involved.?" If I am mimicking a miracle that is fueled with quasi-real stuff not divine energies then there is no xp cost right?

​Allow me to clarify "When a miracle duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component." When a miracle spell duplicates a spell that has an xp cost it must pay the cost right? Well the focus here is when a miracle duplicates a spell... Am I using miracle to duplicate a spell? No I am using silent image to duplicate a spell that duplicates a spell... No actual miracle is being cast...

[torrasque666]

Hmm.. The above statement is incorrect. Since the spell is made of quasi-real material and you are not casting shadow miracle itself but a mimicking it so all costs from the spell are null and void since you are not casting the spell itself. We are not requesting a miracle but creating the effects given by the spell. Using a weird analogy it would be like saying that someone creating a fake gucci bag would have to pay the same cost in materials and effort as it would to create a real gucci bag.

As for dragon ally... Paying the dragon that doesn't really exist? Sure if you want I can negotiate payment *wink wink* then hit it with a dispel magic and it would be gone when it came time to pay. Can this be done with a real dragon? No... This is because a real dragon is real while a shadow mimicked dragon is not. Shadow mimic spells are just fake copies, they emulate spells from a certain list and therefore do not require the spells costs, can be disbelieved and have SR against them.

Funny thing about miracle it states.. "Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 5,000 XP because of the powerful divine energies involved.?" If I am mimicking a miracle that is fueled with quasi-real stuff not divine energies then there is no xp cost right?

Sadly POM, you still have to follow the effects of the spell. It doesn't matter if its quasi-real shadowstuff or not. The spell effect is what you mimic, and that is the entirety of the effect. You don't get to pick and choose which parts of the effect you follow. The cost for duplicating is part of Miracle's effect, thus you have to pay it. Why are you so intent on keeping your broken interpretation of Miracle anyway?

As it is, Shadow Illusions is just an expanded Shadow Conjuration/Evocation spell, as outlined in the ability "The altered spell functions identically to the shadow conjuration or shadow evocation spell, except that the spell's strength equals 10% per level of the figment spell used." As Miracle is Evocation, I will refer to the Shadow Evocation spell.

"Nondamaging effects, such as gust of wind (http://dndtools.eu/spells/players-handbook-v35--6/gust-of-wind--2618/), have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they have no effect." As Miracle is a nonndamagine effect, it behaves normally. If you are the target of the spell, and you disbelieve, it does nothing. If you are the target of the spell and you don't disbelieve it behaves normally, as the spell text.

[Old Man]

^ That's right I have to follow the effects of the spell not the cost... The spell causes something to happen... The cost is not a spell effect it is a price of the spell. The shadow mimicked spell is a copy of a spell that mimics its effects not its cost. I am casting a fake miracle made out of quasi-real material I am emulating its effects. The whole reason behind the shadow illusion is to copy the effect and not the cost.

Some things to note about shadow illusions...
- Mimicked spells use only the components for the image spell altered.
- Mimicked spells use the casting time of the image spell altered.
- Mimicked spells all allow SR, regardless of whether the actual spell would.

Also "Extending this to a mimicked miracle, we note that we are not actually calling for deific intercession - or, indeed, any divine intercession - we are simply creating a quasi-real illusion of the spell's effect from shadow stuff. So here's the thing: there is nothing preventing us from creating an illusion of miracle's greater effects through Shadow Illusion. The spell is capable of greater things than mimicking spells of lower than 9th level, and since what we are casting is not actually the spell, just an illusion of it, we are not limited by deity or alignment review."

In the end the one true fact holds sway over all things said that keeps getting ignored... I am not casting Miracle... I am mimicking a miracle... And it specifically states... When a miracle duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost. Since I am not casting an actual miracle I do not have to pay the xp cost. And since mimicked spells only use the component for the image spell altered I don't have to pay the xp cost.

[torrasque666]

The cost of a spell duplicated by Miracle is part of the effect of Miracle. By duplicating Miracle you incur all of its effects. The effects say that when using miracle, which you technically are, to duplicate a spell you must pay THAT spell's XP cost. The cost is not for miracle, but the duplicated spell and thus is not mitigated by Shadow Illusions as the XP cost for the Miracled spell kicks in as an EFFECT. Which you cannot ignore.

[Old Man]

As you stated when you use a miracle... I am not technically using a miracle... I am mimicking a miracle... There is no actual miracle involved... If I was actually casting the spell itself I would be required to pay its cost... But since I am only making a quasi-real copy there is no xp cost since Mimicked spells use only the components for the image spell altered.

[Necroticplague]

Hmm.. The above statement is incorrect. Since the spell is made of quasi-real material and you are not casting shadow miracle itself but a mimicking it so all costs from the spell are null and void since you are not casting the spell itself. We are not requesting a miracle but creating the effects given by the spell. Using a weird analogy it would be like saying that someone creating a fake gucci bag would have to pay the same cost in materials and effort as it would to create a real gucci bag.
Normally, that would be true, and it is, in part. Normally, you would just use the components of whatever illusion you are using, not the components of the spell being emulated. And heck, we aren't talking about the 5,000 for some greater uses of the spell, which is arguable whether you have to pay or not (it is listed as an XP component, but it is part of the effect of the spell, like Permanency, so it could go either way), we're talking about the part related to emulating spells, which very clearly states "When a miracle duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost". Its not a component of the miracle, its just a cost you have to pay.


As for dragon ally... Paying the dragon that doesn't really exist? Sure if you want I can negotiate payment *wink wink* then hit it with a dispel magic and it would be gone when it came time to pay. Can this be done with a real dragon? No... This is because a real dragon is real while a shadow mimicked dragon is not. Shadow mimic spells are just fake copies, they emulate spells from a certain list and therefore do not require the spells costs, can be disbelieved and have SR against them.
Dispel what part of the spell? Dragon Ally is instantaneous, so their's no magic left to dispel. The spell brings the dragon to you, not creates the dragon. You're faking the process to bring it to you, not the entire existence of the dragon. Regardless of logical dictate, you have to follow the rules, which state the results of instantaneous spells can't be dispelled unless otherwise stated.


Funny thing about miracle it states.. "Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 5,000 XP because of the powerful divine energies involved.?" If I am mimicking a miracle that is fueled with quasi-real stuff not divine energies then there is no xp cost right?
Regardless of the reason given, it still states you have to pay up. Yes, it's dumb and arbitrary, but magic is so in the first place anyway. That's why its magic.

[torrasque666]

Miracle is being duplicated then. Same effects are still called for. And the effect that kicks in when using, or in this case duplicating ,Miracle is providing the XP, it is an effect that still hits you.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As you stated when you use a miracle... I am not technically using a miracle... I am mimicking a miracle... There is no actual miracle involved... If I was actually casting the spell itself I would be required to pay its cost... But since I am only making a quasi-real copy there is no xp cost since Mimicked spells use only the components for the image spell altered.

You're mimicking a Miracle, and then using that mimicked Miracle to mimic another spell, and when Miracle is used to mimic a spell with an XP cost, it specifically states that you must pay that cost. "When a miracle duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost." You are using a Miracle to duplicate a spell with an XP cost, it doesn't matter if that Miracle is being duplicated by a shadow illusion or being cast normally. You're not paying the cost of the Miracle, you're paying the cost of the spell that the Miracle duplicates.

It's a DM's job to mediate the rules, and this should be brought to his attention, not argued about here between two players. If the DM doesn't do anything about this, then he's not doing his job. Being able to bully a DM into letting you cheat does not make you any less of a cheater.

[Old Man]

Sigh personal attacks... Kinda sad... Being called a cheater when you are arbitrarily classifying the spell use as a cheat.

As for dragon ally it is not a calling spell but a summoning spell... Shadow conjuration states that the creature summoned is made out of quasi-real stuff... The spell effect for the spell specifically states Effect: One summoned dragon of up to X HD... Since the spell and the creature created is an illusion made of quasi-real stuff it is not real... Therefore the dragon can be dispelled or resisted. Also all summon spells are instantaneous, that's why you can summon a creature into a AMF from outside of the AMF.

Also everyone keeps stating the same thing over and over again... When you use miracle to mimic a spell... Point has always been I am not using miracle, I am using shadow illusion to mimic the effects of miracle... No miracle is being cast at all not ever... That is the entire premise behind shadow illusion spells you are not casting the spell but mimicking the effects. An xp cost is not an effect of a spell but the cost/component of a spell and shadow illusion spells only pay the cost/component of the shadow illusion.

If we are going by RAW then a shadow illusion of a miracle would not cost any xp... But as always all things are up to the DM to decide.

[torrasque666]

The XP cost of the duplicated spell, the effect of miracle, is also an effect of miracle. You still have to pay it.

[Old Man]

Sigh you are classifying the xp cost as an effect... Allow me to direct you to the SRD for Spell Descriptions... http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm Go down to components... XP costs are components of a spell... Shadow Illusion mimicked spells use only the components for the image spell altered. I am not using silent image to cast miracle... I am using silent image to mimic the effects of miracle... It is not Silent illusion ---> Miracle---> effect... It is Silent Illusion--->effect.

[torrasque666]

POM, the spell you are mimicking, Miracle, requires certain things. The XP cost, while yes, it is a component, is triggered by the effect of the spell. Yes, Miracle itself does not have an XP cost, but it demands you pay one if you duplicate another spell with one. The cost is triggered by the effect of the spell you are duplicating with Shadow Illusion. The trigger is the effect, and you must still pay it. Otherwise you are the most broken class in the game. One that should never see actual play.

If you are upset that this is trying to remove a part of your build, understandably so. But when you are upset that it is trying to bring you to the level of the rest of the party that flies out the window. With the ability to cast Miracles for free you are T0. You are not a party member, you ARE a party at that point.

[Necroticplague]

As for dragon ally it is not a calling spell but a summoning spell... Shadow conjuration states that the creature summoned is made out of quasi-real stuff... The spell effect for the spell specifically states Effect: One summoned dragon of up to X HD... Since the spell and the creature created is an illusion made of quasi-real stuff it is not real... Therefore the dragon can be dispelled or resisted. Also all summon spells are instantaneous, that's why you can summon a creature into a AMF from outside of the AMF.All summon spells are instantaneous? Really? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterI.htm). Also, how does being unreal make it intrinsically dispellable? dispel magic: "Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect." Since The effect of Shadow Dragon Ally (an instantaneous spell) is the dragon, then, as per dispel magic, you can't dispel it. Your stuck until its service is up.


Also everyone keeps stating the same thing over and over again... When you use miracle to mimic a spell... Point has always been I am not using miracle, I am using shadow illusion to mimic the effects of miracle... No miracle is being cast at all not ever... That is the entire premise behind shadow illusion spells you are not casting the spell but mimicking the effects. An xp cost is not an effect of a spell but the cost/component of a spell and shadow illusion spells only pay the cost/component of the shadow illusion.


In most cases, you would be right. Like you wouldn't have to pony up the XP for Dragon Ally. However, the cost to emulate a spell using Miracle (which you are emulating), states you must pay the cost. This is not listed under "XP cost:", it is an effect of the spell. We keep repeating this point because you fail to be able to grasp it. If it said the part about paying the cost of emulated spells under "XP cost" at the bottom, you would be right. However, it instead is in the body describing the effect.

[Old Man]

Miracle demands it... Since I am not casting miracle I am not required to pay it... I am not casting miracle... I am casting silent image. I am mimicking the effects and not casting the spell that causes the effect itself. Shadow Illusion does not allow me to cast real spells since the spell I am mimicking is not real I do not need to pay its requirements. I cannot use a mimicked miracle to cast a real DCS which would then require me to pay an actual cost... But I am using shadow illusion to mimic the effects that DCS gives. A real miracle actually casts a real DCS while a shadow illusion of a miracle gives an illusory DCS. The problem is that you still think silent image casts miracle... Which is false, silent image creates a quasi-real fake version of the effects.

And I would like it if you stop spreading false information. My use of shadow illusion miracle has never ever been used to break the game. We are rolling in plat, I can pay to have DCS cast on me and have a bucket load of money to spare... I have not used shadow miracle to replicate permanency, and even if the GM would go against RAW and go with your house ruled interpretation of miracle costing xp... It would in no way shape or form break my build. Why? Cause I can still use it to cast any spell without an xp cost of 7th level and below and any cleric spell of 8th level and below with it... Does having me be charged for xp for 1 or 2 spells that use xp cost break anything nope? I can just pay to have them cast. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill... The fact still stands that you have not addressed the simple fact that no actual miracle is being cast that the spell component for a shadow illusion is only that of the silent image being cast, and that since I am not in fact casting DCS since shadow illusion cannot actually cast a real spell but mimicking the effect and only the effect that the xp cost you claim I have to pay is null and void.

I am tempted to abuse the fact that I don't have to pay the xp cost, just so that your continued statements that I am attempting to break the game would hold truth... But luckily I am not that kind person tempted thou I may be... But I will not abuse my ability to use shadow miracle.

@ Necroticplague: Opps my bad seems like I misread it the conjuration spells. Lol I thought they were all instantaneous, but heres the thing a real dragon wouldn't allow spell resistance against it. If one were to resist the dragon it would be unable to effect them. Also shadow conjuration states.. A creature that succeeds on its save sees the shadow conjurations as transparent images superimposed on vague, shadowy forms. Which further proves the fact that the summoned creature is not real. Although it would be funny if the dragon was real...

[torrasque666]

POM, when you cast Silent Image to mimic Miracle, for all intents and purposes you cast Miracle and thus incur all of its effects. One of those effects is the trigger to pay any component costs for a spell that is then duplicated by the Miracle that you are mimicking. No matter how may times you say otherwise, it DOES go Silent Image -> Miracle -> spell. Otherwise you are not mimicking miracle at all. You are just mimicking the chosen spell. You use Silent Image to mimic ALL the effects of Miracle, including that trigger. No matter how you try and get around it, that is what you are doing.

[Old Man]

Shadow Illusion states that I am mimicking a spell not casting so for all intents and purposes I am not casting miracle. You are spot on just think about what you said... Since shadow illusion mimics a spells effects and does not cast the spell itself it goes Silent Image--> effect if the end effect of miracle is to cast a spell then I am mimicking the effect of the miracle... Hmm how to better explain this... Okay now you have delayed blast fireball... There are 2 forms of delayed blast fireball a glowing bead and the fireball effect itself. If I were to shadow mimic the bead form does the resulting explosion become a real fireball or is still a quasi real illusion? Its still a quasi-real illusion and is not a real fireball. Because the entirety of the spell is fake. I am not casting miracle, and I am not actually casting DCS, in no shape or form can I use an illusion to cast a real spell. Therefore there is no component cost, it is all an illusion. You are incorrect in your assumption that an actual miracle or the effect it has is real... Any effect produced by a shadow illusion is quasi-real and is fake, so I am not casting a real DCS but a quasi-real illusion and therefore since it is still an illusion it has no cost.

[torrasque666]

The effect of Miracle that you are mimicking is to duplicate a spell. In addition to that, part of the effect of miracle is to pay components if that spell requires them. You hit BOTH of these effects. So yes, your spell that is mimicked is "fake" but as it is being duplicated through the effect of miracle it still requires the component costs.

[Old Man]

duplicated through the effect of miracle
Since no miracle is being cast it is not being duplicated by a miracle... So by your own words it would not require a component cost. There is no miracle here to see *waves hand*...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Your shadow illusion duplicates the effects of Miracle. The effects of Miracle allow you to duplicate another spell, in this case Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos. Whenever the effects of Miracle duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay that cost. It's not a Miracle, but it still follows the effects of Miracle in full.

[jiriku]

Silly people. It's even not your decision to make, and bickering back and forth about it only makes you both look petty. The DM arbitrates the rules, and the players live by the DM's decisions. At this point, however, I think you might both be wise to consider whether you want to continue gaming together. You need to like the people you play games with, or you're not going to have fun gaming with them.

[torrasque666]

The DM doesn't want to take a stance. Probably because given how people have been dropping from the game I think he's afraid of alienating any of us further.

[Old Man]

Oh I know and this is all a moot point really... We are rolling in enough dough that I can get DCS cast on me multiple times... Considering just last session we earned enough from 1 fight to buy +5 ability tomes... First he didn't want me to cast miracle at all... then he realized that I can and the xp cost was limited to only a few things, then argued the point.

They are stuck in there interpretation that a mimicked miracle actual casts a real spell and that a mimicked miracle is actually a miracle spell.. Which if we followed there logic then a silent illusion mimicking a solar is real in which case I would gladly agree to there interpretation if not or the fact it was false...

While I am stating that the spell cast is fake and is not a miracle and thus its effect although mimicking a miracles ability is not real since the miracle itself is not real and any effect created by a shadow illusion is made of shadow stuff and is quasi-real.. Which is in line with what illusions and shadow illusion is about.

Simplest solution would of been to ask me to not use the spell to mimic spells with an xp cost... I would of gladly agreed since out character wealth is so far out of proportion that it matters not, I can always scroll things or hire someone to cast it on me... But constantly trying to argue with me and start fights and trying to do anything in his power to control what I do with my character and how I play it is a big NO. I can't battlefield control cause it makes things too easy for him... So bring on the 2 hour argument on how I should be nerfed to hell... I kill a dragon with my only save or die spell phantasmal killer which I only had 1 memorized that he wanted to grapple and fight solo leaving the rest of the party doing nothing while the combat got resolved and what happened after that another 2-3 hours of argument at how I am defeating his sole purpose in game as dps... So to please him... I am not allowed to dps, I am not allowed to battlefield control... What can I do? Buff? What if I buff them so efficiently that the enemy can't hit/damage him and make it so he can hit them nearly all the time? Wait that's making the game too easy... Can't buff them either...

He has made it clear that he dislikes me... He has made it clear he hates casters cause they are versatile and he has made it clear that anyone that is better than him in anything is his enemy. The only way I can think of pleasing him is probably playing an unoptimized peasant...

[jiriku]

The DM doesn't want to take a stance. Probably because given how people have been dropping from the game I think he's afraid of alienating any of us further.

Permitting the character in the game is taking a stance. It may not be the stance you prefer, but in order to play in the game you have to be willing to gracefully abide by your DM's decisions.

However, I'm noticing that, as upset as you are with Old Man's d&d, he seems to be just as unhappy with how you handled the situation. Over my past 22 years refereeing RPGs, I've often seen this kind of problem between players. It usually gets resolved most happily if each player is willing to set aside his own self for a few minutes and ask "how can I make sure the other guy has a good time at the table?" Perhaps if you took a brief few minutes to think things through from his perspective, consider his goals and why he plays the game, you could come up with some ideas for how you could help him enjoy the game more. If he's an even slightly reasonable person, he's likely to respond to such an act of goodwill by returning the favor and trying to find ways for you to have a good time too. I have a suspicion, since you're both pretty clever people, that once you're working together on the same goal of producing team enjoyment, that you'll be able to accomplish a lot together. Why not give it a try?

[Necroticplague]

They are stuck in there interpretation that a mimicked miracle actual casts a real spell and that a mimicked miracle is actually a miracle spell.. Which if we followed there logic then a silent illusion mimicking a solar is real in which case I would gladly agree to there interpretation if not or the fact it was false...

While I am stating that the spell cast is fake and is not a miracle and thus its effect although mimicking a miracles ability is not real since the miracle itself is not real and any effect created by a shadow illusion is made of shadow stuff and is quasi-real.. Which is in line with what illusions and shadow illusion is about.

No, I agree, every single thing about if it fake. A silent image infused with phony divine energy from the Plane of Shadow creates a false miracle that makes a fake spell. However, You still have to pay for that fake spell, because the fake miracle does the things a miracle does, which includes paying for spells it emulates.

Of course, all this endless bickering is doing is starting to get petty between parties and repeating ourselves. What say we move this over to the RAW thread stickied to the top of this board? I'd post, but I can't think of how to word it so it isn't leading.

[Donny_Green]

Mostly the fact that most of his stuff can become over 100% real if they are disbelieved (because he can use Earth Spell to boost Silent Image from 0 to 11 with both Easy Metamagic and Practical Metamagic drops it back to 9, meaning that its already 110% real, becoming 130% due to the capstone), thus doing MORE effects. It might just be a poor reading on my part though.

As for saves, most enemies don't have a snowballs chance due to the fact that he already has +8 to his DCs making even a Level 0 have a DC of 30, so everything takes extra damage.

Your GM should put an end to that real quick. Cap it at 100. In this way more spell levels will reach 100% reality, but none can be more real than 100% real.

And that's the tag line right there... There is no such thing as 130% real.

[Old Man]

We enlisted the aid of a druid and with his hippy powers and a few bongs we were able to come to a compromise... He left the counseling session with a hefty sum of reefer and I left with an afro which is epic on a gnome and some baggy disco blazers...

Edit:
@above what he stated was incorrect... If they fail their will save for the spell they take normal damage as per the spells description... If they make the will save they take damage depending on how real the spell is. By pumping up my DC I am ensuring that they always take the normal damage the spell provides... If they fail their will save which is very rare is it only then that they take extra damage. Some would term this unfair.. Others with an open mind and the proper knowledge know that the feat investment I had to take to accomplish this can easily on different wizard with the right prestige classes be used for feats that reduce the level adjustment of metmagics to the point that you could cast spells with maximize empower and bunch of other metamagics for only a +1 slot adjustment or even +0 if you build it correctly. Is this unfair? No... Why is this fair? Because it uses the feats available in the game, just because one knows how to build a strong character due to knowledge of game mechanics and feat/class synergies does not make it cheating, otherwise a greater portion of the player base for DnD would be cheaters.

As for how a spell can be more than a 100% real? It is simple when you empower a spell it does +50% more damage is that not so? The spell is powered by extra material from the shadow realm to the point that the spell is more stronger and empowered...