So good has 7 virtues, evil has 7 vices... what about choas and law?

[Azraile]

Lets see now.....



Virtues of good Vices of evil ???? of Order ???? of Chaos
1 Chastity 1 Lust 1 Detachment? 1 ??
2 Tempoerance 2 Gluttony 2 ??? 2 ??
3 Charity 3 Greed 3 ?Law ? 3 ?freedom?
4 Diligence 4 Sloth 4 ?Monotony? 4 ??
5 Patience 5 Wrath 5 ?? 5 ??
6 Kindness 6 Envy 6 ?? 6 ??
7 Humity 7 Pride 7 ?? 7 ??



Not sure at all..... but maybe we can figure something out, could make artifcts based on them too but for now just setting them out would be a good thing to do.... and heck don't even know what to call them dought you could get all 4 to start with V though..... but maybe have the order and chaos terms as similar to eachother as the good and evil ones

[Coventry]

Pathfinder's Alignment List seems appropriate (Good, then Neutral, then Evil listed):

Chaos
Benevolence, charity, freedom, joy, kindness, mercy, warmth
Capriciousness, fate, freedom, individuality, liberty, self-possession, unpredictability
Anarchy, anger, amorality, brutality, chaos, degeneracy, freedom, profaneness, violence

Law
Duty, fairness, honor, property, responsibility, right, truth, virtue, worthiness
Harmony, loyalty, order, organization, rank, rule, system, tradition, word
Calculation, discipline, malevolence, might, punishment, rationality, subjugation, terror

[DeltaEmil]

Dictates of Order.

Randomness of Chaos.

[Azraile]

Pathfinder's Alignment List seems appropriate (Good, then Neutral, then Evil listed):

Chaos
Benevolence, charity, freedom, joy, kindness, mercy, warmth
Capriciousness, fate, freedom, individuality, liberty, self-possession, unpredictability
Anarchy, anger, amorality, brutality, chaos, degeneracy, freedom, profaneness, violence

Law
Duty, fairness, honor, property, responsibility, right, truth, virtue, worthiness
Harmony, loyalty, order, organization, rank, rule, system, tradition, word
Calculation, discipline, malevolence, might, punishment, rationality, subjugation, terror

some of those don't fit chaos or law alone but bits and pices.... though there is a lot good there bolded some that stand out to me as ones that might fit in

[ben-zayb]

Law wouldn't have 7 something. It'll probably be 7000+ something, all of which are neatly organized and detailed, footnotes and all, in a stack of tomes somewhere

On the contrary, there are the 7 Giant Frogs of Chaos:
1. Giant Frog
2. Giant Frog
3. Giant Frog
4. Giant Frog
5. Giant Frog
6. Giant Frog
7. Giant Frog

[Azraile]

Virtues of good Vices of evil ???? of Order ???? of Chaos
1 Chastity 1 Lust 1 Detachment 1 Pleasure
2 Tempoerance 2 Gluttony 2 Discipline 2 Capriciousness
3 Charity 3 Greed 3 Property 3 Plunder
4 Diligence 4 Sloth 4 ?Monotony? 4 ??
5 Patience 5 Wrath 5 Consistency 5 Capriciousness
6 Kindness 6 Envy 6 Loyalty? 6 ??
7 Humity 7 Pride 7 Tradition 7 Individuality



hows this stuff looking?

[Chaosvii7]

Virtues of good Vices of evil ???? of Order ???? of Chaos
1 Chastity 1 Lust 1 Detachment 1 Pleasure
2 Tempoerance 2 Gluttony 2 Discipline 2 Capriciousness
3 Charity 3 Greed 3 Property 3 Plunder
4 Diligence 4 Sloth 4 ?Monotony? 4 ??
5 Patience 5 Wrath 5 Consistency 5 Capriciousness
6 Kindness 6 Envy 6 Loyalty? 6 ??
7 Humity 7 Pride 7 Tradition 7 Individuality



hows this stuff looking?

Not sure if this was intentional, but you put Capriciousness on there twice under Chaos.

[Azraile]

Virtues of good Vices of evil ???? of Order ???? of Chaos
1 Chastity 1 Lust 1 Detachment 1 Pleasure
2 Tempoerance 2 Gluttony 2 Discipline 2 Indulgence
3 Charity 3 Greed 3 Property 3 Plunder
4 Diligence 4 Sloth 4 ?Monotony? 4 ??
5 Patience 5 Wrath 5 Consistency 5 Capriciousness
6 Kindness 6 Envy 6 Loyalty? 6 ??
7 Humity 7 Pride 7 Tradition 7 Individuality



nope... fixed that

[PersonMan]

I wouldn't say that things like 'Lust' would fit DnD as a big Evil thing, since it's clearly a thing that can be Good and Evil in DnD, depending on how it's 'done', so to speak. Similarly, Sloth, Envy, Gluttony and Greed aren't Evil unless they motivate one to let others die when one could help them, kill them for their stuff or similar.

[Azraile]

true but there things that drive evil wich I think was the point in them

though I think like half of them all go to avarice

lust, gluttony, greed, envy are all just forms of avarice

[Knaight]

This whole 7 virtues 7 vices thing, and the chosen ones listed are rather ... religion specific. I mean it's not like there aren't other systems involving different numbers. I'll leave it at that, and avoid getting into actually talking about religion here.

[Azraile]

That is true they are religion based not really good evil.... maybe we should make new ones there.... (not nesisarly 7)

ones not religion based... just pure good based or pure evil based....

afterall chasity and lust realy arn't good or evil in and of themselves

Though charity and avarice would be keepers as would kindness and wrath (i know there not oposit)

[PersonMan]

The thing is, going with the 'this can be the driving force of evil' idea, you can list more or less everything as a vice.

Let's see:


Chastity

This is actually an example in Exemplars of Evil; someone who's over-the-top chaste and kills people who would try to pursue their affections.


Temperance

Over-the-top self control can result in someone who looks down at all the 'uncontrolled savages' around them. Seeking to enforce a similar level of moderation upon others, and killing those who resist, can lead to a very Evil life.


Charity

This is a bit more difficult, but murdering the wealthy to distribute their wealth would work out to be net neutral or evil, especially if it's coupled with a sort of 'with me or against me' mentality that leads to more killing than is necessary.


Diligence

Being diligent isn't Good or Evil; what you're being diligent about is what matters. Obvious example: a demon can be diligent in their genocide of Goodistanians.


Patience

Again, entirely Neutral attribute. Drow are notorious for being patient, waiting decades for their plans to bear fruit.


Kindness

Apart from things like compartmentalized villainy (i.e. 'I hate all gnomes, they must be killed to the last, but I will help any human/elf/dwarf I see who needs my assistance'), nothing obvious here. One can be kind (relatively) in one's Evil, though. Killing painlessly, assassinating the close family of the one you need to get rid of to accomplish your goal so that they don't have to mourn would be a kind of Evil kindness.


Humility


"I am merely a faithful servant of [Evil Deity Name Here]. My deeds are all to further their glory, I am unimportant as anything but their hand."

EDIT: Wrath is a Neutral thing, too, I'd say. Righteous anger is a common trope, as much or moreso as Evil Wrath.

[Azraile]

anger and wrath are diffrent things......

wrath is giving into anger and letting it control you and generaly deffently evil.... even if you try and justify it as zeal

I totaly get the idea of super good being evil and super evil being good type stuff lol part of my major game going on

the idea is just to make something to match the vurtues and vices for order and chaos but it wouldn't be a bad idea to redo the vices and vurtes too so they are truely good and evil

[Yanisa]

The thing is, going with the 'this can be the driving force of evil' idea, you can list more or less everything as a vice.

Let's see:



This is actually an example in Exemplars of Evil; someone who's over-the-top chaste and kills people who would try to pursue their affections.



Over-the-top self control can result in someone who looks down at all the 'uncontrolled savages' around them. Seeking to enforce a similar level of moderation upon others, and killing those who resist, can lead to a very Evil life.



This is a bit more difficult, but murdering the wealthy to distribute their wealth would work out to be net neutral or evil, especially if it's coupled with a sort of 'with me or against me' mentality that leads to more killing than is necessary.



Being diligent isn't Good or Evil; what you're being diligent about is what matters. Obvious example: a demon can be diligent in their genocide of Goodistanians.



Again, entirely Neutral attribute. Drow are notorious for being patient, waiting decades for their plans to bear fruit.



Apart from things like compartmentalized villainy (i.e. 'I hate all gnomes, they must be killed to the last, but I will help any human/elf/dwarf I see who needs my assistance'), nothing obvious here. One can be kind (relatively) in one's Evil, though. Killing painlessly, assassinating the close family of the one you need to get rid of to accomplish your goal so that they don't have to mourn would be a kind of Evil kindness.




"I am merely a faithful servant of [Evil Deity Name Here]. My deeds are all to further their glory, I am unimportant as anything but their hand."

EDIT: Wrath is a Neutral thing, too, I'd say. Righteous anger is a common trope, as much or moreso as Evil Wrath.

The problem with some of your examples is that you are not using the trait as evil. Instead you are saying that extremist that force their opinions on others trough violence, intimidating and murdering are evil. By that logic puppy-hugging can be used to drive evil. 'Hug that puppy or die!' 'You have a cat, you harbor the enemy, now burn!'
Although it makes a interesting villain, his driving force to evil is not puppy-hugging. :smalltongue:

But lets not dwell to long on it, many traits are indeed more neutral and it depends on the person whether they are used for good or evil. Doesn't stop making these kinds of theme interesting to build around a dungeon, once per party. A chaotic themed "dungeon" around the 7 whatevers of chaos is a unique challenge to a lawful good group, and especially any paladins. I am going to steal some ideas here and there, including a puppy-hugging evil warlord. :smalltongue:

[Azraile]

lol, yah thats the basic idea there.... to much of anything kinda ruins it

but boiling it down to basics i'll have to think on some

[Mando Knight]

Not sure if this was intentional, but you put Capriciousness on there twice under Chaos.

That's because it's twice as important!

[Elderand]

Chaos has an arbirtary number of purple fishes squared to the power of banana. Or not.

[Azraile]

Lets see some keepers and things to consider

Good
Charity/kindnes seam kinda the same in some senses something to show putting yourself before others is a good start

Evil
avarice defiantly
Wrath or some better word to exspress being consumed with anger/revenge/hate

Lawful/Order
Discipline, Consistency, Tradition
loyalty could be here or in good so?????

chaotic
Capriciousness, Individuality, freedom
pleasure seams a good fit but it's putting your own pleasure before others that works there.... lawfull evil is more conserned with evil than themselfs too so putting your own self and your own pleasures before others is a nutral/chaotic trait

[RedMage125]

Chaos has 7 Absolute Values:

1) Feel no obligation to adhere to any externally imposed restriction, least of all synchronicity.


If you feel compelled to ask about the other 6, please review #1 again.

[Eldan]

I don't think loyalty is lawful, as such. The difference is what you are loyal to. The way I see it:

Lawful characters are loyal to ideas, organisations, hierarchies, titles. "I owe my life and duty to the King, because that is his divine right." Chaotic characters are loyal to friends, personal heroes, personal ideals. "I owe my life and duty to the King, because he is a good man".

Of course, either side can have a bit of both.

[Telonius]

For the titles ...
"Axioms of Law"
"Code of Chaos. (Well, more what you'd call guidelines, really)."

For Chaos:
Experimentation
Humor

For Law:
Honesty