How does nature grant divine magic?

[RoboEmperor]

"most (druids) get their spells from the power of nature rather than from deities" <- this.
"She gains her magical power either from the force of nature itself" <- and this.

Can someone elaborate? How does nature grant spells? Does the druid sap some kind of magic force from nearby trees? Can a druid forgo worshiping a deity? Why do they lose their spellcasting when they become no longer neutral?

[Azoth]

While not RAW in any sense, so take it with a grain of salt, I have my views on it.

I have seen it as the Druid is uniquely able to tap into the magic of nature and the world around them. Pulling on its threads just right to produce the spells they prepare. They can only affect the magic around them to call forth the effects of the natural world, but on a much more intense
scale.

This is how they do magic. Wizards learn incantations and gestures to force the world to its knees. Clerics beg their god for divine power to bend the world to their whim. Druids learn how to speak to the world directly and ask it to kneel down for them.

Druids are not required to worship any diety whatsoever to gain their magic. You could for all intents and purposes have an Athiest druid. The gods and religion play no direct part on their magic and manipulation of it.

I am going to assume that the Neutral alignment requirement is to show a detachment from the more restrictive thoughts associated with them. It is also a reflection of the neutral nature of nature. Nature is not good, evil, chaotic, or lawful by definition. Nature has no real alignment as plants, animals, and the weatherer all either lack an intelligence score or have one below sentience and can't make moral judgements as we see them. This is further reinforced by the monster manual stating that animals' alignments aren't a reflection of the creature's actual intentions or behavior, but how they are percieved by civilized cultures.

[Werephilosopher]

"most (druids) get their spells from the power of nature rather than from deities" <- this.
"She gains her magical power either from the force of nature itself" <- and this.

Can someone elaborate? How does nature grant spells? Does the druid sap some kind of magic force from nearby trees? Can a druid forgo worshiping a deity? Why do they lose their spellcasting when they become no longer neutral?

Nature grants spells pretty much how faith does- in D&D, both concepts are powerful enough to fuel magic. In that vein, druid casting doesn't drain energy from nearby life any more than cleric casting makes people nearby lose faith- it's not sucking energy out of stuff to use in magic so much as channeling energy in a new way. Yes, a druid can forgo worshiping a deity, and many do. The enforced neutrality is generally seen as keeping in line with nature, in that nature is in many ways impartial.

[RoboEmperor]

Nature grants spells pretty much how faith does- in D&D, both concepts are powerful enough to fuel magic. In that vein, druid casting doesn't drain energy from nearby life any more than cleric casting makes people nearby lose faith- it's not sucking energy out of stuff to use in magic so much as channeling energy in a new way. Yes, a druid can forgo worshiping a deity, and many do. The enforced neutrality is generally seen as keeping in line with nature, in that nature is in many ways impartial.

I thought clerics pray to their deity and the deity give the spells. So no absorbing faith, just begging the god to give em spells.

[MrNobody]

"most (druids) get their spells from the power of nature rather than from deities" <- this.
"She gains her magical power either from the force of nature itself" <- and this.

Can someone elaborate? How does nature grant spells? Does the druid sap some kind of magic force from nearby trees? Can a druid forgo worshiping a deity? Why do they lose their spellcasting when they become no longer neutral?

Yes, a druid can forgo worshipping a deity just like every other character can, even a cleric!

If your cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, you still select two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

I think that, just like those clerics that have no patron god, druids draw their power from a mix of pure faith in what they believe in, willpower and a substrate of divine magic lingering in the world. It's my personal idea that when a druid prays for his spells he draws power form the "natural magic" (i mean a portion of "free magic" existing in the world, resting in every living creature) but also from other sources of powers, like the outer planes linked with nature. He then blends them through his willpower and gets spells.
The difference from god-less clerics is that druids are "all-around power-gatherer", since they pick up power from literally everything, while clerics have a special bond with particular planes and aspects of the world, as their chosen domains show.

The question of neutrality, as I see it, is a way to "stay tuned" with the power surge of the world. Nature is (considered) by itself neutral and balanced, so the druid has to share a part of this balance to receive power. Just like a godless Cleric has to be Chaotic to choose the Chaos domain, a Druid must be neutral to have access to the power lingering in the world.

[Muggins]

The other posters in this thread have hit about the same marks as I would. I'm not sure if it's RAW (or even written down anywhere, for that matter), but here's how I rationalise the different kinds of magic in DnD*:

Arcane Magic: Magic which stems from the world. Some are born with the innate gift to wield this magic (Sorcerers), while others learn incantations in order to achieve similar heights (Wizards). They draw from the magic of life and existence, requiring precise speech and gestures in order to do so.
Divine Magic: Magic which stems from the spirits. Either at the hands of deities/ideals (Clerics) or at the behest of nature (Druids). "Power from another," which require less restrictive incantations than those of mages but which require devotion to another force or being.
Psionics: Magic which stems from the individual. Whether by force of will (Wilders), understanding of the multiverse (Psychic Warriors) or knowledge of its workings (Psions). "Power from within," which uses a personal reservoir rather than actively drawing from the outside world.

*Not that this is really any help. I could've sworn that I've seen something like this in an official book, though. :smallconfused:

[Svata]

"most (druids) get their spells from the power of nature rather than from deities" <- this.
"She gains her magical power either from the force of nature itself" <- and this.

Can someone elaborate? How does nature grant spells? Does the druid sap some kind of magic force from nearby trees? Can a druid forgo worshiping a deity? Why do they lose their spellcasting when they become no longer neutral?

I view it as the same way Clerics of a cause, idea, or ideal get their spells. Don't know why its different than a clerc who worships the idea of nature, but it is.

[Kazudo]

Naturally, of course. How ELSE would nature do something?

[Phelix-Mu]

The concept of nature worship is as obvious and straightforward as it is in the real life historical context; people look at the world around them, realize they are totally screwed if nature goes all sideways on them (cosmic forces that make our puny lives seem meek and insignificant, etc), and try to cope with this fact/appease nature/have faith that things happen for a reason/have faith that things will get better/etc.

In D&D, the natural world is inherently magical. So, for someone who has faith and devotion to nature as a concept, they can reap special magical benefits through faith alone, irrespective of the other arcane methods of tapping into what is essentially the same source of power.

Keep in mind, that, although 3e moved away from the established pattern of druidic hierarchy in earlier editions, most druids do learn how to worship from other druids of one order or another. Both Aber-Toril and Eberron are full of examples of such orders and their techniques (and the feats related to such), while on Athas druids represent the only recognizable vestige of core divine magic in the world (as element clerics are kind of different to the core concept, and templars are quite different).

That doesn't mean druids can't be self-taught. Just like some mystics come to spiritual realizations without a hierarchy to instruct them, just so can a person who naturally venerates nature tap into this source of power. Many shamanic types aren't really part of an organization, and if they aren't simple adepts, may find themselves in the shoes of a druid.

As to the other points:

- The default druid has no deity, or if they do, it's not the deity that is connected to the divine spellcasting (rather that would be a personal devotion unconnected to druid levels...like a dwarf druid that says prayers to Moradin out of personal devotion and as a personal choice...that worship has nothing to do with the spells). In some settings, there are specific deities or nature-embodiments that sponsor druidic sects. I would consider these to be setting-specific options, but the books may say otherwise.

- Nature is seen as an impartial force in the world, favoring none and enabling all things with one hand, while smiting randomly with the other. Forces of natural destruction don't ask your name or ask you to recount your sins before laying you low; before earthquakes, forest fires, and tornadoes, all mortal forces are uniformly impotent and helpless. Only the mightiest of magics can render one truly impervious to natural forces, and even then things like time and space can at least inconvenience wizards and clerics (hehe, the true measure of high tiers). Even the druid isn't immune; nature may enable the druid to have special powers and to protect themselves and others, but such protections can only go so far (a NG druid can protect all they want, but a NG druid can't stop nature from also empowering an NE druid to go around spreading disease and suffering). A druid must seek a measure of the balance that nature demonstrates, even if the druid is allowed a limited amount of personal spin on those principles.

[squiggit]

I thought clerics pray to their deity and the deity give the spells. So no absorbing faith, just begging the god to give em spells.

Cept a cleric doesn't need to worship a deity to gain spells. A cleric can worship a mountain. Or an ideal. Or themselves.

[Coidzor]

"most (druids) get their spells from the power of nature rather than from deities" <- this.
"She gains her magical power either from the force of nature itself" <- and this.

Can someone elaborate? How does nature grant spells? Does the druid sap some kind of magic force from nearby trees? Can a druid forgo worshiping a deity? Why do they lose their spellcasting when they become no longer neutral?

How does a deity grant spells and how is this changed by having it be an impersonal force instead?

Druids can forgo worshipping a deity as long as they are not in Forgotten Realms or another setting that requires a deity to receive spells.

[SiuiS]

"most (druids) get their spells from the power of nature rather than from deities" <- this.
"She gains her magical power either from the force of nature itself" <- and this.

Can someone elaborate? How does nature grant spells? Does the druid sap some kind of magic force from nearby trees? Can a druid forgo worshiping a deity? Why do they lose their spellcasting when they become no longer neutral?

Druids gain power from nature in the same way a cleric gains power from concepts. Nature is, in fact, a concept a cleric can draw power from.

Druids maintain their class by virtue of a code of conduct. Neutrality is part of that code. They lose their power for changing alignment for the same reason a paladin will temporarily lose their own for lying; because that is part of the agreement they made to get their powers in the first place.

[Werephilosopher]

I thought clerics pray to their deity and the deity give the spells. So no absorbing faith, just begging the god to give em spells.

Right- I meant a druid DOESN'T absorb life from stuff, just as a cleric DOESN'T absorb faith from stuff.

[Coidzor]

If you want sucking life from plants and creatures around one's self, you're looking for/at Dark Sun's Preserving/Defiling arcane magic system.

[Pinkie Pyro]

My campain world, arcane magic comes from dragons, divine magic comes from gods (duh), and druid magic is fey magic.

Keeps things simple.

[PersonMan]

One way to do it is to simply say "It isn't known".

Worshipers of deities wield magical power they say comes from their deity, sometimes others wielding similar powers emerge suddenly from the layfolk and often claim either be divinely inspired or otherwise chosen by fate. Druids worship nature in hundreds of different ways and gain different powers (represented by ACFs as well as different builds for "Druids"). Depending on the source of your information, druids get their power from pacts with evil forces, or from nature itself, similarly to how some claim that the magic-wielding priests of the great churches are truly drawing their power from something other than their deity, but simply claim that that is the true soruce of their magic to prop up the church.

Not everything about the world needs to be known, and if the PCs want to find out, well, they've just made campaign planning that much easier by giving you something you know they're interested in.

[Psyren]

The same way a belief does :smalltongue:

[Talya]

"most (druids) get their spells from the power of nature rather than from deities" <- this.
"She gains her magical power either from the force of nature itself" <- and this.

Can someone elaborate? How does nature grant spells? Does the druid sap some kind of magic force from nearby trees? Can a druid forgo worshiping a deity? Why do they lose their spellcasting when they become no longer neutral?

A couple more possibilities (which are very similar.).

(1) Pantheism. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism) Nature herself is divine.
(2) In settings like The Forgotten Realms, Nature is synonymous with the deities that represent it as well. Sylvanus and Chauntea are nature. You cannot separate nature from the gods.

[Red Fel]

(2) In settings like The Forgotten Realms, Nature is synonymous with the deities that represent it as well. Sylvanus and Chauntea are nature. You cannot separate nature from the gods.

The problem I have with this formulation (as well as the one comparing Druids to Clerics-of-a-concept) is that Druids are not Clerics. Some may not even "worship" nature, though they generally revere it. It's more than just mechanical differences; a Cleric is a devout believer, follower, student of her deity; a Druid seeks to preserve, live among, and/or emulate nature. The two are very different persons. A Cleric of a nature-deity may have certain similarities to a Druid, but even then they will see each other as different beings, scholars of different philosophies.

And Clerics and Druids are hardly the only divine casters. There are Favored Souls, who don't so much pray for their spells as channel the energies innately; there are Paladins, whose magic is theoretically fueled by conviction; an Ur-Priest casts divine spells by stealing power from the gods; a Spirit Shaman receives her spells through a "spirit guide" from "the spirits"; a Shugenja draws divine magic from "primal energies."

I think it's more a question of pulling from a procedural power source rather than an a conceptual one. Arcane casters draw their power from details - rituals, magic words, gestures, lore. Divine casters (and I think that's a horribly misleading name) draw them from more abstract concepts - deities, nature, conviction, spirits. Arcane processes are personal - you wave your hand, you command the force - whereas divine processes are external - you draw on the land, you beseech the gods, you channel the energies of the other.

I think it's also worth noting that the concept of spell failure applies to arcane, but not divine spells. That requires some reasoning. I'd argue that arcane spells involve the process, the nitty gritty mathematical details of the spell, and as a result anything that interferes with the process interferes with the spell. By contrast, divine spells involve the idea, the construct behind the spell, which exists whether you wiggle your fingers perfectly or not; as a result, wearing armor won't stop you from tapping into the concept and drawing out the power.

But yeah. "Divine" no longer explicitly means "from the gods," at least in 3.5.

[Talya]

Red Fel: You are aware that Forgotten Realms disallows "clerics of an ideal", and likewise, Druids, Paladins and Rangers all require deities to receive their divine magic. A druid in Faerun directly worships a god or gods in order to receive their spells. That's why I differentiated Faerun in point 2 from Pantheism in point 1.

[Red Fel]

Red Fel: You are aware that Forgotten Realms disallows "clerics of an ideal", and likewise, Druids, Paladins and Rangers all require deities to receive their divine magic. A druid in Faerun directly worships a god or gods in order to receive their spells. That's why I differentiated Faerun in point 2 from Pantheism in point 1.

Point; once again, I may have been a bit hasty in my reply.

Yes, in settings like Faerun where divine magic comes explicitly from divine worship, that's understandable, and my entire post pretty much doesn't apply. (*sob*)

On the other hand, in settings where divine magic doesn't explicitly require divine worship, or settings where the presence of deities isn't felt, I think my argument is a valid one.

It seems I'm not disagreeing with you at all, really. Yay, team?

[atemu1234]

The same way clerics can have domains without having a deity? It's their belief that powers it, more so than any god or force.

[Kazudo]

I had actually toyed with the notion of creating some form of Druid Schools of Magic, which takes any of whatever I deemed to be "non-standard druid spells", maybe even pulling some more over from the cleric list, and making "types" of druid. For example, your rock druids, tree druids, etc. Why would a dwarven druid who's lived his entire life underground worshiping the stone and gems around him have access to things like "goodberry"?

Each type of Druid would also have its own method of retaining spells which, granted, would pretty much amount to "sit and meditate and commune with nature" but the environment could be different. The Rock Druid would need to sit around a specially hand-crafted cairn of small stones he keeps in a pouch on his person for the allotted time which will strengthen his ties to the Stone from which we all come and to which we all return. Meanwhile, the Fire druid would need to burn a kind of incense (that he keeps on him in huge supply at all times, probably in a component pouch or something) and breathe in the fumes for the duration, the Tree druid would have to find a place suitable, plant a tree seed, and meditate on the wonders of the seedling's growth, etc.

Granted, aside from spell availability, it wouldn't really affect much. Depending on how it's done, it would sort of detract from the Druid's spellcasting which probably ultimately wouldn't matter. Oh, that and enforcing the "animals you have contact with" portion of Wild Shape, which with good enough explanation would probably not matter much. "Yes, I am a dwarven druid from the deep tunnels and no, I didn't grow up with bears, but the forest surrounding our mountain keep was absolutely rotten with bears (it's why it's called Bear Forest), and when I emerged from the tunnels as a lowly 1st level Druid, I was attacked by bears frequently while meditating in my cairn. I learned to commune with them, and found that a bear really isn't that different from a dwarf. When I made this connection, I found it easy to assume the form of a bear at 5th level when I was able to emerge successfully (and alive) from the Bear Forest when I ended up in the town everyone else is in."