My Warforged Juggernaut - Frenzied Berserker?

[Chester]

Hello People!

I have two possible paths for my Warforged Juggernaut build, and I'm just looking for feedback to see what you all think.

The first idea is an old, simple one: 6 levels of dungeon crasher fighter, then Warforged Juggernaut tempered with two levels of reforged, etc. (Not really an IDEA--more of the standard, I guess).

The second, which I'm kind of leaning toward, is going for Frenzied Berserker. I'd take first level in lion totem Barbarian, then a few levels of fighter, then, after a few levels of Warforged Juggernaut, I'd go to Frenzied Berserker. I'm just not sure if it's worth it to go Juggernaut first, or what a decent build order would be. Would I still take two levels of Reforged to get rid of some of the setbacks? Would this even work?

I appreciate any feedback!

[Chester]

Ok....so let me be more specific:

If I wanted to build a warforged melee character that would PrC to both Juggernaut and Frenzied Berserker, I'd like to consider

1. How many levels of Barbarian vs. Fighter, and in what order?
2. When is the best point to PrC?
3. Juggernaut or Berserker first?

[HammeredWharf]

Why Reforged? The ability to heal normally isn't particularly great IMO, because you can always use Repair spells instead of Cures.


Construct Perfection II—At 3rd level, a warforged juggernaut gains immunity to all mind-affecting spells and abilities (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

While Frenzy isn't specifically mind-affecting, I'd make sure your DM is ok with you using it. I'm usually in the "fluff is mutable" club, but both PRCs are very fluffy, so I'd be slightly against frenzying juggernauts.

Why do you want FB, anyway? It's a good class, but I'd pick War Hulk over it for this build. You can qualify for WH by using an item of constant Expansion. It's a custom item, but I figure most DMs would be ok with it. Snatch Knockback while you're at it for extra bull rushing fun.

[Chester]

Why Reforged? The ability to heal normally isn't particularly great IMO, because you can always use Repair spells instead of Cures.

Well, the idea is that with Reforged, it trumps Healing Immunity, so cure spells work.


While Frenzy isn't specifically mind-affecting, I'd make sure your DM is ok with you using it. I'm usually in the "fluff is mutable" club, but both PRCs are very fluffy, so I'd be slightly against frenzying juggernauts.

It's up for discussion with the group (we rotate DM duties), but I love the idea of a "frenzied robot" charging into everything with a greataxe.


Why do you want FB, anyway? It's a good class, but I'd pick War Hulk over it for this build. You can qualify for WH by using an item of constant Expansion. It's a custom item, but I figure most DMs would be ok with it. Snatch Knockback while you're at it for extra bull rushing fun.

I like the ability, I like what Barbarian can get you. I hadn't thought of War Hulk due to size, but it's a possibility . . . frankly, the group is likelier to go along with a frenzying juggernaut that a magic item that qualifies me for something meant for giants!

Really, it's a matter of flavor . . . I could do the Dungeoncrasher 6 / Juggernaut trick, but I like the flavor of the other build better.

[prufock]

While Frenzy isn't specifically mind-affecting, I'd make sure your DM is ok with you using it. I'm usually in the "fluff is mutable" club, but both PRCs are very fluffy, so I'd be slightly against frenzying juggernauts.
Clay and Flesh Golems have the Berserk special ability (which is thematically similar to frenzy) despite being immune to mind effects.

[Chester]

Ultimately, I think I'll cut out Reforged--if I want to pay a Warforged, I need to deal with the consequences. :smallamused:

I'll probably start with Barbarian for the extra skill points, focus mostly on Craft and Jump.

As for other PrC, War Hulk just isn't in the cards at the moment, but are there others out there worth considering besides the Juggernaut and Berserker?

[HammeredWharf]

Warblade is always a good "PRC".


It's up for discussion with the group (we rotate DM duties), but I love the idea of a "frenzied robot" charging into everything with a greataxe.

SAFETY TURNED OFF. INITIATING SLAUGHTER MODE.

Could work.

[Chester]

Warblade is always a good "PRC".

Don't ask why, but the group already decided that Warblade is "overpowered." :smallannoyed:

Sticking with the eventual Juggernaut / Berserker idea . . . how would one allot low-level Fighter / Barbarian?

Two levels of Barbarian, three Fighter? Or something else? EDIT: Leaning towards Barbarian for first level to get the extra skill points.

[RedMage125]

Barbarian for 1st level is a good idea, skill points are a crippling point of the Fighter.

Edit: So much of my advice went out the window when I noticed you said Lion Totem Barbarian. Which takes care of issues like losing Fast Movement.

Have you considered Ape Totem? You get a climb speed equal to 1/2 your Base Land Speed, which is decent (especially because unlike a Human in Heavy Armor, you cannot remove your armor to climb), but at 2nd, you get a +2 to Intimidate, and at 3rd, you get Power Attack as a bonus feat. This removes some of the burden of needing levels of Fighter. So Ape Totem Barbarian 3, followed by 2 levels of Dungeoncrasher Fighter.
Feats would be:
1-Adamantine Body
3-Bonus: Power Attack
3- Improved Bull Rush
4-Fighter Bonus: Cleave
6-Intimidating Rage
9-Destructive Rage

After you finish WF Juggernaut, you can go straight into FB.

However, that's 10 levels in which you can only rage once per day. Unless you're particularly invested in getting some of the Barbarian's other class features. FB is a pretty feat-intensive PrC, but WFJ has a lower BAB requirement, so you should enter that first.

I was going to suggest a build of only 1 level of Barbarian, and try and get Extra Rage in there somewhere, but because Dungeoncrasher gives up the 2nd level bonus feat, I can't manage a feat array that gets you Extra Rage, all of the prereqs for WFJ, and all of the prereqs for FB by level 10. I suppose my first suggestion is still a good one, but you still only get Rage once per day.

[Chester]

Barbarian for 1st level is a good idea, skill points are a crippling point of the Fighter.

Edit: So much of my advice went out the window when I noticed you said Lion Totem Barbarian. Which takes care of issues like losing Fast Movement.

Have you considered Ape Totem? You get a climb speed equal to 1/2 your Base Land Speed, which is decent (especially because unlike a Human in Heavy Armor, you cannot remove your armor to climb), but at 2nd, you get a +2 to Intimidate, and at 3rd, you get Power Attack as a bonus feat. This removes some of the burden of needing levels of Fighter. So Ape Totem Barbarian 3, followed by 2 levels of Dungeoncrasher Fighter.
Feats would be:
1-Adamantine Body
3-Bonus: Power Attack
3- Improved Bull Rush
4-Fighter Bonus: Cleave
6-Intimidating Rage
9-Destructive Rage

After you finish WF Juggernaut, you can go straight into FB.

However, that's 10 levels in which you can only rage once per day. Unless you're particularly invested in getting some of the Barbarian's other class features. FB is a pretty feat-intensive PrC, but WFJ has a lower BAB requirement, so you should enter that first.

I was going to suggest a build of only 1 level of Barbarian, and try and get Extra Rage in there somewhere, but because Dungeoncrasher gives up the 2nd level bonus feat, I can't manage a feat array that gets you Extra Rage, all of the prereqs for WFJ, and all of the prereqs for FB by level 10. I suppose my first suggestion is still a good one, but you still only get Rage once per day.

Rage once per day doesn't bother me--it's the Frenzy I want!

Ultimately, I've moved away from Dungeoncrasher because of the loss of second level bonus feats.

[Regissoma]

If not warblade how about crusader for that nice healing and tankiness. I also think the dungeon crasher is nice compared to the frenzied berserker, because you never know when your going to fail that will save.

[Chester]

If not warblade how about crusader for that nice healing and tankiness. I also think the dungeon crasher is nice compared to the frenzied berserker, because you never know when your going to fail that will save.

There's always Steadfast Determination. :smallbiggrin:

[RedMage125]

Rage once per day doesn't bother me--it's the Frenzy I want!

Ultimately, I've moved away from Dungeoncrasher because of the loss of second level bonus feats.

In that case, you could go:
Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/WFJ 5/ FB
Feat compilation:
1- Adamantine Body
2- F: Power Attack
3- Extra Rage
3- F: Improved Bull Rush
5- F: Cleave
6- Intimidating Rage
9- Destructive Rage

However, if Rage 1/day doesn't bother you, then I recommend Dungeoncrasher. Given the benefits of WFJ, combining Dungeoncrasher would be overall better. And as you can see from the feat layout, the only change is getting Extra Rage.

I still maintain that Ape Totem Barbarian 3/Dungeoncrasher 2/WFJ 5/FB is the better way to go.

[Chester]

In that case, you could go:
Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/WFJ 5/ FB
Feat compilation:
1- Adamantine Body
2- F: Power Attack
3- Extra Rage
3- F: Improved Bull Rush
5- F: Cleave
6- Intimidating Rage
9- Destructive Rage

However, if Rage 1/day doesn't bother you, then I recommend Dungeoncrasher. Given the benefits of WFJ, combining Dungeoncrasher would be overall better. And as you can see from the feat layout, the only change is getting Extra Rage.

I still maintain that Ape Totem Barbarian 3/Dungeoncrasher 2/WFJ 5/FB is the better way to go.

Yeah, I guess I don't need 6 levels of Dungeoncrasher. I thought that the level 6 ability was necessary.

I just don't see why Ape is better than Lion, since Pounce is better for a charger.

[RedMage125]

Yeah, I guess I don't need 6 levels of Dungeoncrasher. I thought that the level 6 ability was necessary.

I just don't see why Ape is better than Lion, since Pounce is better for a charger.

...

This was my bad, I was looking at Lion totem Barbarian from Unearthed Arcana, not Complete Champion.

So...yeah...pounce.

[Chester]

...

This was my bad, I was looking at Lion totem Barbarian from Unearthed Arcana, not Complete Champion.

So...yeah...pounce.

No worries . . . you've actually been quite helpful, thank you!

That being said . . . one level barbarian, 4 dungeoncrasher? 2 / 3 split?

[RedMage125]

No worries . . . you've actually been quite helpful, thank you!

That being said . . . one level barbarian, 4 dungeoncrasher? 2 / 3 split?

I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by a 2/3 split.

Due to the extensive Feat requirements of Frenzied Berserker, you will be unable to take level one of that class until level 10 at the earliest (9 if your DM allows you to take a PrC at the level you acquire the feat), which puts you at 3 or 4 out of 5 levels into WFJ.

If you go non-Dungeoncrasher, and substitute out Extra rage for either Intimidating or Destructive Rage at level 3, you will be able to qualify after only one level of WFJ.

But seriously, given how invested a WFJ is into Bull-rushing, I'd stick with Dungeoncrasher.

[Chester]

I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by a 2/3 split.

Due to the extensive Feat requirements of Frenzied Berserker, you will be unable to take level one of that class until level 10 at the earliest (9 if your DM allows you to take a PrC at the level you acquire the feat), which puts you at 3 or 4 out of 5 levels into WFJ.

If you go non-Dungeoncrasher, and substitute out Extra rage for either Intimidating or Destructive Rage at level 3, you will be able to qualify after only one level of WFJ.

But seriously, given how invested a WFJ is into Bull-rushing, I'd stick with Dungeoncrasher.

I meant 2 / 3 split as in 2 barbarian, 3 fighter--but that's kind of a moot point now.

Yeah, 1 level of Barbarian to get the pounce mechanic and a rage, then Dungeoncrasher to start working towards Juggernaut.

Since I won't really be working towards Frenzied Berserker until later . . . it leaves the door open for other pursuits. If I like the who charging thing even better than the idea of frenzying, I can always stick to one path and be a charger who gets a rage ability once a day. (One level of Barbarian opens up a lot more skill options anyway).

I'm excited about this--I've never played a straight-up melee character (I always focus on magic or stealth), and a tank with 41 point buy is sweet!