dragon disciple

[Spacehamster]

So this prc is such a oddball, when looking at the bonuses you think melee class and would be real good one too, when you look at requirements to enter you think sorc or bard, and when you look at BaB you think non front melee at least.

So anyone have any idea for requirements skills/feats if you remade this to an actual melee dragon/humanoid freak thing? As in keep the ability bonuses, breath weapons and other things but gave it full BaB? Cause that would actually make it a fun and flavourful prc while still beeing useful aswell.

Spacehamster over and out

[Spacehamster]

Oh and you remove the spells they get and replace with full BaB.

[eggynack]

Just, y'know, keep them the same. The class isn't particularly good, after all, with its odd casting requirements that never pay off, and its underwhelming abilities. You can go a pretty long way towards improving the class without a prerequisite increase being necessary, and granting full BAB is definitely within that boundary.

Edit: Ah, this is instead of the casting requirement? The answer remains pretty much the same. Just pick out a reasonably thematically suiting feat that just about any melee fellow would be happy to take, like power attack. It's on the list of recommended feats for true dragons, so it works out adequately.

[Spacehamster]

Just, y'know, keep them the same. The class isn't particularly good, after all, with its odd casting requirements that never pay off, and its underwhelming abilities. You can go a pretty long way towards improving the class without a prerequisite increase being necessary, and granting full BAB is definitely within that boundary.

Yeah just thought remove casting requirements and replace with some fitting melee combat feat and swich the spells they get with something else maybe with full bab as I said + maybe a bonus feat at levels 2,5 and 8 would make it not broken? :)

[eggynack]

Yeah just thought remove casting requirements and replace with some fitting melee combat feat and swich the spells they get with something else maybe with full bab as I said + maybe a bonus feat at levels 2,5 and 8 would make it not broken? :)
Sounds fine. As I mentioned, you could go a hell of a long way without dragon disciple being broken.

[Spacehamster]

Here goes:

Dragon disciple

Requirements:
Race: any non dragon
Base attack: 5
Languages: draconic
Feats: power attack, improved initiative
Special: choose dragon type

Class skills: same as normal xcpt replace spellcraft and concentration with maybe jump and climb or something Else physical.

Skill points at each level 2 or 4 + int modifier

Hit die: d12

BaB progression as any full BaB class, remove bonus spells replace with bonus feat at levels 2,5 and 8 take these from fighter bonus feat list + improved natural attack, multi attack and improved natural armor. Keep all other bonuses from leveling as they are.

How does this sound?

[eggynack]

It's fine, though depending on optimization level, I'd consider ditching the toughness. Maybe consider replacing it with something else off the suggested dragon feat list, like cleave, improved initiative, or maybe blind-fight. Y'know, something with less than 100% usage on fighter builds, but at the same time, more than 0%.

[Spacehamster]

It's fine, though depending on optimization level, I'd consider ditching the toughness. Maybe consider replacing it with something else off the suggested dragon feat list, like cleave, improved initiative, or maybe blind-fight. Y'know, something with less than 100% usage on fighter builds, but at the same time, more than 0%.

Changed it to imp initiative. For optimization it would prob be best to just keep 1 bonus feat say 3rd lvl, keep all ability bonuses they get and make it 5 lvl prc. Imo they should make all prc's 5 lvl with best bonus at last level to avoid ppl optimizing with like 8 different classes on one char. ^^

[Spacehamster]

It's fine, though depending on optimization level, I'd consider ditching the toughness. Maybe consider replacing it with something else off the suggested dragon feat list, like cleave, improved initiative, or maybe blind-fight. Y'know, something with less than 100% usage on fighter builds, but at the same time, more than 0%.

Oh and reason I put toughness is that we houseruled it to be more useful, basicly a d4 and d6 class gets +1 hp per level, d8 and d10 gets 2 and d12 gets 3.

[ericgrau]

It is in fact a melee class and you dip to meet the requirements. DMG suggests that it's bad for a full caster in fact.

For core it's actually quite a strong PrC for any melee, though especially a tripper. Much better than going barbarian 20 at least. Though you could do barbarian entry into it if you wanted. You already get more than enough melee stats to make up for the medium BAB. Outside of core you might find better options though. The boosts you suggest aren't too huge for higher optimization, so that's fine if you want.

Besides tripping another trick is to use your 1 caster level for easy staff or wand use, without having to figure out how to get UMD. It has a nice set of class skills too.

[Trundlebug]

If you are going to change it, change the prerequisite so it no longer disqualifies itself from the class when you reach the capstone.

[Svata]

Looks alright to me. Go with 4+INT skill points. And definitely put in a line in the capstone to make an exception for it so it no longer disqualifies itself.

[Spacehamster]

Looks alright to me. Go with 4+INT skill points. And definitely put in a line in the capstone to make an exception for it so it no longer disqualifies itself.

The disqualify itself do you mean when it becomes a half dragon? But its already max lvl then so does it matter since cant gain more lvls in it anyways? :)

[ericgrau]

Supposedly it loses all benefits of the PrC once it becomes a half dragon, then that also means it is no longer a half dragon, which means it regains all the benefits of the PrC, continue in endless loop. It's a silly notion and everyone ignores it anyway. But if you want you could put under race requirements "Any nondragon (cannot already be a half-dragon, except via this prestige class)".

[Karnith]

The disqualify itself do you mean when it becomes a half dragon? But its already max lvl then so does it matter since cant gain more lvls in it anyways? :)
They are applying rules for prestige classes found in Complete Arcane (p. 17) and Complete Warrior (p. 16), which state that characters who no longer meet the prerequisites for their PrCs lose all special abilities of said PrCs, to the PrCs in the DMG. There is debate over whether those rules apply to PrCs not found in Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Just spend three levels to gain the Half-Dragon template! (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a)

You don't have to take those levels in uninterrupted succession (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a), and each one counts as a point of level adjustment.

Get the first level of the Half-Dragon template class, gain any three class levels, and buy off that +1 LA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm). Gain the second level of the half-dragon template class, gain any three class levels, and buy that one off as well. Do the same for the third level of the half-dragon template class, and you've got the entire half-dragon template for no level adjustment. Assuming you go [Class] 1/ Half-Dragon 1/ [Class] 3/ Half-Dragon 1/ [Class] 3/ Half-Dragon 1/ [class] 3, you pay a total of 21,000 xp for the template and you've got the whole thing when the rest of your party is 10th level. Since you'll be lower level than the rest of the party you'll get more xp per encounter and should catch back up rather quickly.

[3drinks]

I've found the best class for this is the Duskblade from PHB II. Duskblades are okay with giving up caster levels for these kinds of buffs, and can even take Practiced Spellcaster to recoup four of the lost levels. Gaining a few bonus spells at certain points (notably, their level three and four spell list) is icing on the cake.

[Svata]

They are applying rules for prestige classes found in Complete Arcane (p. 17) and Complete Warrior (p. 16), which state that characters who no longer meet the prerequisites for their PrCs lose all special abilities of said PrCs, to the PrCs in the DMG. There is debate over whether those rules apply to PrCs not found in Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior.

While I personally don't think it applies, it's best to remove any ambiguity. I would tack (this feature does not disqualify you from any or all features of this class, including further levels in this class, if you contiue progression into epic levels.) onto the feature that gives you the half-dragon template.

[Spacehamster]

Feral gargun dragon disciple would be pretty cool, buy off the +2LA and have 2hd of its monster class, 1 lvl barb for rage, 2 lvl fighter for feats and then 10 in the modified dragon disciple. Would equal out at +12 str, +2 dex, +6 sta and all the perks of powerful build and full attack on charge from swiching barbarian speed for tiger totem thingy, how does this sound? :)

[Spacehamster]

So here is the remade Dragon disciple with a focus as a straight out melee class.

Dragon disciple

Hit die: d12

requirements:

BaB: 5
Race: Any nondragon (cannot already be a half-dragon except the half dragon you gain from this prc)
Feats: Power attack, Improved initiative
Languages: Draconic
Special: Choose your dragon variety when you take the first level
in this prc.

Class skills:
Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape artist, Gather information,
Knowledge(all skills taken individually), Listen, Proffesion,
Search, Speak language, Spot.

Skill points at each level: 4 + Int modifier

Class features:

Weapon and armor proficiency: Gain no new proficiency

Bonus feats: gain a bonus feat at 3rd, 6th and 9th level taken
from the fighter bonus feats with the addition of improved natural attack,
improved natural armor, improved breath weapon(came up with myself
thought it to give +2d8 dice to the breath), multiattack and improved flight.

Natural armor increase: At 1st, 4th and 7th level you start to look more
like a dragon. You gain small almost see-through scales that gets more
noticeable at higher levels, which increases your natural armor by 1 at each
of the 1st, 4th and 7th lvl.

Claws and Bite: At 2nd level a dragon disciple gains claw and bite attacks if
she does not already have them. Use the better one if already have them.
Small: Bite 1d4 Claw 1d3
Medium: Bite 1d6 Claw 1d4
Large: Bite 1d8 Claw 1d6
You are considered proficient with these attacks. When making a full atttack
you use your full BaB with bite and take a -5 penalty on the claws, the multi-attack
feat reduces this to -2.

Ability boosts:
As you become more like a dragon as you progress further into the PrC you gain
ability boosts as follows
2nd: +2 str
4th: +2 str
6th: +2 con
8th: +2 int
10th: +4 str, +2 cha

Breath weapon: At 3rd level, a dragon disciple gains a minor breath weapon.
Which type and size depends on what type of dragon you choose at 1st level
of the class. 3rd level damage is 2d8, 7th is 4d8 and 10th level is 6d8.
The DC of the breath weapon is 10 + class level + Con modifier. The line type
breath weapon is 5 ft high, 5 ft wide and 60 ft long. a cone shaped breath weapon is 30 feet long.

Line type: Black(acid), Blue(lightning), Brass(fire), Bronze(lightning) and Copper(acid)
Cone type: Green(corrosive gas acid), Red(fire), White(cold), Gold(fire) and Silver(cold)

Blindsense: At 5th level a Dragon disciple gains blindsense range 30ft, at 10th it increases to 60ft.
This gives ability to sense hidden and concealed creatures within its radius, you still take all penalties
in battle against them such as flat-footed and miss chance.

Wings: At 9th level, a dragon disciple grows a set of draconic wings. He may now fly at a speed equal to
his normal land speed times two, with average maneuverability.

Draconic apotheosis: At 10th level a dragon disciple fully realizes her draconic heritage and gains the
half dragon template(pg146 monster manual). His natural armor increases to +4 and she acquires low-light
vision and 60ft darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon.

level: BaB Fort Ref Will
1 +1 +2 +0 +2
2 +2 +3 +0 +3
3 +3 +3 +1 +3
4 +4 +4 +1 +4
5 +5 +4 +1 +4
6 +6 +5 +2 +5
7 +7 +5 +2 +5
8 +8 +6 +2 +6
9 +9 +6 +3 +6
10 +10 +7 +3 +7