How much is a stronghold actually worth?

[WarKitty]

So I want to give my players an (empty) castle. What I'm not sure about is what level I should do this at. I'm familiar with the stronghold builder's guide, but I'm also presuming there's no way for them to sell the castle or otherwise turn it into money very easily. At the same time it's something that would need to be defended.

About what level would you think it would be reasonable for players to have a stronghold of their own? And what should need to come with it?

[Tvtyrant]

I think it depends. At low levels a Stronghold is likely to be attacked by mundane forces like bandits and goblins, and be the center piece of the campaign. At higher levels it becomes more like a home base, where the party returns to while relaxing. Attacking it at that point is slightly meaningless, as the party can always set up alarms and port back to it.

Edit: I think any level is fine honestly. Having a castle at level 1 will not break the game, nor at level 20. Kind of like giving the party an Airship, it just modifies the shape of the game.

[WarKitty]

I want it to be high enough level that the party doesn't feel tied down, but low enough that it's an ongoing part of the campaign and not just something to port back to every now and then.

The one absolute I want is for it to be high enough level that some low-level warriors and mundane items aren't really of interest to the party.

[IslandDog]

I'd go for 6-7th level. Going by E6 logic, that's the pinnacle of human achievement - so they'll still care about their possession.

[hymer]

Unless they sell it, a castle in itself isn't all that valuable to adventurers. They could start with one each from level 1 and it need not unbalance anything.
But castles tend to come with land, which is settled by people, which means taxes and/or mining/farming/gathering of resources. And then it may be able to be unbalancing.

Edit: Castles can also be more expensive than lucrative. You may want some soldiers to guard it, and some smiths to keep their arms repaired, and they need to be fed and keep a store of provisions. And it needs maintenance/repair, and there may not be furniture, and so on.

[John Longarrow]

From past games, as soon as the players start taking Leadership.

Before they have followers, it tends to be a massive drain on resources (defense, upkeep, provisions, keeping the area around cleared) without giving a good reason to have one. Even at 20th level, the party will want a townhouse in a city that someone else pays to protect rather than paying out of pocket for a lump of stone they have to continually keep track of.

As soon as they get followers, this changes... quickly.

Followers means they need someplace for them to stay. Followers need to be kept busy. Follower take care of all of those mundane tasks without forcing the players to keep an eye on them.

[WarKitty]

I was presuming it would come with some sort of followers - people who are willing to farm the local land and take care of the castle in exchange for the PC's protecting them. Probably combined with some way of summoning them back when they need to be there. It would be basically self-sustaining but probably require some work on their part to become more than that. Local farming occurs primarily at the subsistence level, with only a small amount left over to sustain experts. Most of the excess goods are traded with passing caravans (note that these are already linked to a PC) for items that can't be produced locally. There may be some local mines or other resource, but these have fallen into disrepair and are now just a deathtrap. It would require significant investment to return them to working order.

I'd probably just ban leadership and allow the players to gain followers through their actions. The villagers automatically fight to defend their homes against common threats. The locals can make weapons and armor but expect to be reimbursed for their troubles. Taxes are not terribly substantial unless the PC's invest in improving the area, but should be enough to supply a unit of guards and a small handful of servants. Rituals are also available to summon various magical defenses or guards. One of the guards can perhaps serve as a trainer, allowing the peasants to gain weapon and armor proficencies (restricted to simple weapons, light armor, and shields). Overall the castle should run at break-even point unless the PC's put money in.

[BWR]

Back in the day you could found your own stronghold at 9th level, and attract followers at the same time. Considering level adjustments from BECMI/RC to d20, this would be anywhere from 5th to 9th level (levels don't scale exactly from one system to the other). I would say any time after 5th, or whenever narratively appropriate. If the PCs do something big that could see them rewarded with a stronghold, allow them to get it then, no matter which level they are. Heck, you could clear out an old fort at level one, lay claim to it and spend the rest of your career restoring and expanding it.

If you want detailed rules for domain management, I suggest the old Master rules set for BECMI. You might have to adjust the exact values, but it's a nice useful system. Pathfinder has some in Ultimate Campaign, and it's fairly easy to use (and free on the PRD), but I'm not too fond of it.