Please talk me out of taking a level of marshall

[Hiro Quester]

I'm playing an 18th level bard/sublime chord/heartfire fanner. CHA bonus of +15.

Spell resistance is totally nerfing our ability to deal with bad guys. Our two tanks died in last night's encounter, because my Otto's Irresistable Dance didn't get through SR of the cloud giant cleric and cloud giant sorcerer bad guys. (Inconvenient, but with two clerics in our party, not permanently fatal.)

As a sublime chord I have the song of arcane might that adds +4 to CL for spell penetration, but an unlucky roll (which happened here) can still make that a wasted standard action, and a wasted spell. Frustrating.

I'm considering taking a level of marshall at 19th level, for the minor aura (determined caster) that adds my +15 CHA bonus to rolls to penetrate spell resistance, for me and all allies in 60 feet of me. I also have the Helm of Tactics (I have all the Regalia of the Hero), that would add +1 to that score.

But it hurts.

That would be the level I finally get 9th level spells. For the first time. Ever. No other character I have played has made it this far. I would still get one 9th level spell at 20th level. But half the number of 9th level spells would be a big trade-off.

So this is a desperate plea. Please talk me out of this.

Is there a better way to penetrate spell resistance or deal with this issue more obliquely? I like all my feats, and the +2 from spell penetration isn't much. So retraining a feat isn't a high priority. But a possibility, if y'all have better ideas.

The GM is very generous with letting us do relatively cheesy stuff. (Our whole group is relatively super-powered; hence the +15 CHA bonus.)

[Zanos]

Arcane Mastery(Complete Arcane) will let you take 10 on CL checks even in combat if you think an average roll is enough to get through spell resistance.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Pick up a Runestaff or something to grab some SR: No spells? Learn Assay Spell Resistance? Learn and quicken/Arcane Fusion True Casting?

[John Longarrow]

Take leadership. Your cohort can do the "Marshall buffing" while you keep your spells.

One feat for a great deal of usefulness. Cheesy like cheddar, but it will work.

[WhamBamSam]

You can bypass SR entirely with the various (Su) abilities Shapechange gets you.

[Jeff the Green]

Have you looked at all the ways to just boost your CL (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1054346) generally?

[Juntao112]

Mind you, taking a level of Marshall for Motivate Dexterity is quite good.

[Callin]

You could try just getting a custom magic item of it. Since you can get evasion you can get an aura. It might cost a bit though

[Hiro Quester]

Thanks, everyone.

I already use Shadow Conjuration to craft a magic Tattoo for +1 CL every evening (for as many party casters as I have 5th level spells left). I would have a +CL ioun stone too, but one of our clerics wanted it, and I wanted the protection from 8th level or less spells ioun stone instead.

But that list of ways to add to CL gives me a couple of other ideas. Thanks.

A rune staff that includes Harmonic Chorus would be useful. But it looks like that's a bonus I can give the party wizard, rather than myself. He would appreciate that, though.
Adding "Suffer the Flesh" to that rune staff would also help. Taking CON damage to boost CL up to +5 is an awesome ability. And I have a paladin Wand of Lesser Restoration, to recover from the CON damage it uses.

And adding to that rune staff some no SR spells would be useful, too. I should look for a few of those. I'll also gain some other 4th, 6th, 8th and 9th rank spells the next two levels.

I won't take leadership. The DM hasn't banned it, but my leadership score is at the max of the charts, and our party is crowded enough already (most nights 7 or 8 players) so I have decided not to take advantage of that cheese, awesome though it would be.

Retraining a feat for Arcane Mastery looks like a reasonable option. That would get CL +4+10 =33 to 35 (depending on tattoos and leveling up) to penetrate SR, which might work on many targets.

I'm thinking about time stop rather than shape change for my first 9th level spell. But shape change would the the other one I take. I don't really know the Monster Manual well enough to know the options for creatures to change into and their SU abilities tat might nerd a caster as well as a spell, though. (Im guessing there is a manual or guide for that somewhere, though.) That's an extra incentive to stick with increasing caster level as i Level up, rather than taking Marshal, though. I should research that.

I'm still open to other suggestions, please and thank you.

[Hiro Quester]

You could try just getting a custom magic item of it. Since you can get evasion you can get an aura. It might cost a bit though

Do you mean a custom magic item that grants a Marshall minor aura? Is that possible?

We just made a ton of gold in our last encounters, but I spent it all on armor enhancements, scrolls, final parts of the Regalia of the Hero, and slippers of battle dancing [Off topic, but I need to brag: those slippers were totally worth it; thanks to their bonuses and other buffs (snowflake wardance, gauntlets of heartfelt blows, dragon fire inspiration, heroics for TWF and ITWF, and a tempo bloodspike for an extra move action) I got to solo melee kill a giant for 540 points of damage in one full round attack in last night's encounter. Thats' why Bards are awesome to play.]

I'd probably have to save up for something like that item. I bet it would be expensive. What do you mean that you can get an item of evasion? How is that related?

I'm getting somewhat Marshall-y already, with the full Regaia of the Hero. Do you have any advice on where to look for rules to use to convince a GM to let me get an item made? (WOTC explicitly state (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20050711a) that looking for items to increase your ability to penetrate SR is probably not going to bear fruit.)

[Eldest]

Perhaps look into getting a magical item that gives the Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration feats.

[XmonkTad]

In Dragon Magic they have a draconic aura that lets you get that aura for a feat (but you must be dragonblood and the bonus will only be +1). Arcane mastery would be a better feat. It will solve most of your CLC problems.
A wand of Assay Spell Resistance should be a pittance of your WBL, as should a wand chamber (or a glove of storing).
Shattermantle is considered a weak WSA, but with enough attacks/round, it can give you the extra edge to just arcane mastery away all your problems.

[Vedhin]

Perhaps look into getting a magical item that gives the Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration feats.

Per the Arms & Equipment Guide, this item is 20,000gp or so.


In Dragon Magic they have a draconic aura that lets you get that aura for a feat (but you must be dragonblood and the bonus will only be +1).

Draconic Aura may not be used to take Marshal Auras. You're likely confusing it with the Marshal's ability to trade a Major Aura for a Draconic Aura.

[Chronos]

Technically, the Draconic Aura feat doesn't require you to be dragonblooded, and if you are dragonblooded, the resulting aura scales with your level (up to +4). Which isn't really relevant here, since draconic auras are roughly equivalent to "major" marshal auras (i.e., the small ones), not to the "minor" auras (the big ones).

[Hiro Quester]

A wand of Assay Spell Resistance should be a pittance of your WBL, as should a wand chamber (or a glove of storing).

Maybe not a wand. Casting from a wand is a standard action, so only swift action spells can accompany it.

But perhaps on a runestaff, so it can be cast as a swift action. I don't know why that didn't occur to me before now. Prob because a cleric in the party usually casts that spell. He wasn't able to play last night.

Edit: fixed typo.

[Karnith]

Maybe not a wand. Casting from a wand is a standard action, so only swift action spells can accompany it.
Rules Compendium fixed that, if you happen to use that book.

[Hiro Quester]

Rules Compendium fixed that, if you happen to use that book.

Oh. That makes it more attractive, then.

Still I think I might make a runestaff anyway. I already have one for morning persistent spell buffs. Another for during encounters might be prudent. I often don't have a spare hand for a wand. I'll have to do the math on the cost and the wand's benefit of saving 4th rank spells for other purposes. (I have a lot of good ones.)

Thanks everyone. I think you have talked me out of it. There are other options here that don't gimp my casting progress so badly as a level of Marshall would.

[Jergmo]

Honestly with a +15 Cha bonus, a level 1 dip in Marshal would benefit you more overall than access to a 9th level spell. That might not be a popular opinion, but Motivate Dexterity is a good example.

Your party has +Yes to Initiative at that point. I don't think there's anything that has an Initiative modifier that high, except maybe some obscure, obscene Epic monster. Or a God, given that they only roll 20's.

[Hiro Quester]

Honestly with a +15 Cha bonus, a level 1 dip in Marshal would benefit you more overall than access to a 9th level spell. That might not be a popular opinion, but Motivate Dexterity is a good example.

Your party has +Yes to Initiative at that point. I don't think there's anything that has an Initiative modifier that high, except maybe some obscure, obscene Epic monster. Or a God, given that they only roll 20's.

Honestly, I hasn't considered motivate dexterity as an option until it was mentioned here. But it is a powerful ability to consider. I'll think on that one, and find out what party members can benefit.

[georgie_leech]

Honestly, I hasn't considered motivate dexterity as an option until it was mentioned here. But it is a powerful ability to consider. I'll think on that one, and find out what party members can benefit.

Is there such a thing as a PC that doesn't benefit from increased odds of going before the enemy? :smallconfused:

[ahenobarbi]

Is there such a thing as a PC that doesn't benefit from increased odds of going before the enemy? :smallconfused:

There is metagame reason not to do it: this may cause arms race with DM and end up not improving initiative order much in practice.

Also as other mentioned there are a few low level spells that grant huge bonuses to CL for overcoming spell resistance (true casting, assay spell resistance, ...). Get them on Wanda and enjoy :)

[jiriku]

There is metagame reason not to do it: this may cause arms race with DM and end up not improving initiative order much in practice.

Also as other mentioned there are a few low level spells that grant huge bonuses to CL for overcoming spell resistance (true casting, assay spell resistance, ...). Get them on Wanda and enjoy :)

QFT. In high-level play against a DM who can optimize, constant all-day buffs don't really help all that much; the DM just buffs his monsters equivalently and the arms race continues. Reactive and short-duration effects are better in that meta-environment because the DM is less likely to neutralize them with brute stat-optimization.

[Hiro Quester]

Is there such a thing as a PC that doesn't benefit from increased odds of going before the enemy? :smallconfused:

What the others said about GM reaction seem prudent considerations.

Plus I already have the bard spell "Shock and Awe", an immediate action cast during surprise round, that decreases EBGs initiative by 10. But they have to be flat footed, and SR applies. Still, it's been quite useful.

I want to keep progressing casting. Thanks again for the suggestions everyone. I will get someone to craft a runestaff (or wands) with some of these spells, esp. assay spell resistance, true casting, as soon as we get back to a civilized place.