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PirateMonk
2007-02-24, 01:44 PM
'Best' meaning the most powerful and useful, with equally experienced and intelligent design, in an adventure with a reasonable mix of foes, at, say, level 10.

Morty
2007-02-24, 01:48 PM
I have no other choice than to vote for wizard. In fact, I'd vote for wizard even if he was the most horribly underpowered caster in existence, but he is the best caster class.

reorith
2007-02-24, 01:49 PM
i second wizard. it looks like you've listed them in the order from best to worst.

Emperor Tippy
2007-02-24, 02:00 PM
Power wise it's the druid for personal power at level 10. If you went to level 20 the wizard would pull ahead.

Krellen
2007-02-24, 02:06 PM
People overestimate spells.

Cleric; who is, by far, the most powerful D&D class period.

It's a shame most people play them as heal-bots.

Quietus
2007-02-24, 02:08 PM
Bard, just 'cause the poor guys get no lovin'. Or maybe too much, those cha-monkeys.

Leush
2007-02-24, 02:19 PM
By definition they are all equal in a reasonably designed adventure. I'm really torn between sorcerer and bard, Sorcerer can have a higher bluff score by then, but I think that the bard will get marginally more chicks... (In other words I second Quietus).

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-02-24, 02:50 PM
Leush: What a surprise to see that coming from you :-p

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-24, 03:26 PM
By definition they are all equal in a reasonably designed adventure.

"LOL", as is said on The Internet.

Funny how published adventures don't bear that out.

Morty
2007-02-24, 03:29 PM
"LOL", as is said on The Internet.

Funny how published adventures don't bear that out.

By definition they are. It's just the fact that this definition very often doesn't work.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-24, 03:31 PM
I don't see anywhere that the classes are defined as being equally powerful.

TheOOB
2007-02-24, 03:34 PM
In my opinion wizard is the most powerful class in the game (except maybe artifacer), though cleric and druid come in for a close second.

Clerics/Druids do have some perks, not the least of which are combat ability, full spell list access, and healing, but overall sorcerer/wizard spells are just more powerful and can do more things. A wizard with well prepared spells can take on almost any challenge.

However, I'd have to say that I'd much rather have a wizard and a cleric in a party then two wizards.

Morty
2007-02-24, 03:37 PM
I don't see anywhere that the classes are defined as being equally powerful.

Hmm... the fact that you can be 20 level wizard as easily as 20 level fighter or druid? In all three cases you have to gather ceratin amount of XP, the same for all classes. I just think it's natural that in theory(and only in theory) all classes are equal and can contribute in party equally.

Matthew
2007-02-24, 03:42 PM
I don't know about the 3.5 DMG, but it is strongly implied in the 3.0 DMG that the Base Classes are balanced.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-24, 03:47 PM
For perspective:
A 10th level cleric has Divine Power and Quickened Divine Favor for fights; maybe Righteous Might if it's really critical. Other useful spells include Freedom of Movement, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, Air Walk...

A 10th level druid can have a polar bear companion (or a brown bear, with bigger bonuses), can cast Animal Growth on it (brown bear STR 27, +1 STR/DEX, +2 NA from Druid levels, and +8 STR/+4 CON/+2 NA from Animal Growth, total STR 36, CON 23, +4 NA... it can eat your face).
He can also spend all day as a Megaraptor or Dire Lion.
He can cast Control Winds, Freedom of Movement, Wall of Thorns, Wind Wall, Greater Magic Fang...

The 10th level wizard can fly all day long via Overland Flight, keeping him safe from half his enemies or more. Choice spells include Confusion, Solid Fog, Wall of Stone, Greater Invisibility (protects him from tough flyers), Teleport, Black Tentacles, Haste, Slow, Glitterdust, Alter Self, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion.

Morty
2007-02-24, 03:51 PM
And again, that how it looks in practice. But I don't really think it was intended that Wizards, Clerics ans Druids rule above everyone else.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-24, 03:53 PM
Who cares what was intended? What matters is how it *is*.

It WAS, however, definitely intended for clerics and druids to be stronger--basically, because people didn't like playing them.

Morty
2007-02-24, 03:55 PM
Who cares what was intended? What matters is how it *is*.

It WAS, however, definitely intended for clerics and druids to be stronger--basically, because people didn't like playing them.

Well, it started when Leush said "by definition they're all equal...". By definition they are. It's just it doesn't work.
I don't know about Clerics and Druids being intended to be stronger, I started in 3,5ed. Only thing I know about 2ed is BG series, and back then Cleric and Druid were ok.

Saithis Bladewing
2007-02-24, 03:58 PM
At level 10? Druid, no doubts in my mind. Cleric starts to pull ahead with CoDzilla tactics in the next few levels, then eventually wizard pulls up to take first in the higher levels.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-24, 03:58 PM
Well, it started when Leush said "by definition they're all equal...". By definition they are. It's just it doesn't work.
I don't know about Clerics and Druids being intended to be stronger, I started in 3,5ed. Only thing I know about 2ed is BG series, and back then Cleric and Druid were ok.

Except that nowhere is there a definition of how strong they should be. There are some implications, sure, but it is NOT said, and since they DID intentionally make the 3.0/3.5 cleric/druid stronger than other classes (I'm guessing the ridiculousness of wizards was unintentional; maybe their playtesters play blaster casters), they're clearly NOT defining the classes to be equally powerful.

Morty
2007-02-24, 04:05 PM
Except that nowhere is there a definition of how strong they should be. There are some implications, sure, but it is NOT said, and since they DID intentionally make the 3.0/3.5 cleric/druid stronger than other classes (I'm guessing the ridiculousness of wizards was unintentional; maybe their playtesters play blaster casters), they're clearly NOT defining the classes to be equally powerful.

Well, if WoTC DID make Clerics and Druids stronger than other classes intentionally(even if I don't know why should they do that) then I guess you're right. I'm basically assuming that theoretical equality of classes is obvious and natural, it's a game after all.
BTW, I'm personally starting to think that wizards are broken because they were adding spells on the fly, whichever was cooler, without stopping to think how will it look in practice.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-24, 04:08 PM
They made clerics and druids stronger because in previous editions, most people didn't like playing them (due to relegation to the role of "heal bitch"). Between spontaneous healing for clerics and melee efficiency, they wanted to make them more attractive to play.

tarbrush
2007-02-24, 04:50 PM
(I'm guessing the ridiculousness of wizards was unintentional; maybe their playtesters play blaster casters),
They have playtesters?!?!?

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-24, 04:53 PM
When I say "playtesters", I mean "gnomes on LSD".

Leush
2007-02-24, 05:06 PM
Don't let the gnomes reach the magic forest!



Funny how published adventures don't bear that out.

I take no responsibility for the quality of published material :smalltongue:.

When I said by definition I meant that "if you tweak every detail of the adventure to bias every class in such a way as to make them balanced". So basically I said, if they're balanced, then they're balanced. So I made a joke at the expense of people who worry about these things.

But seriously, if you don't take the bard (or rogue, or monk or anything else with diplomacy as a class skill even cleric I assume- which now that I think about might allow him to win, even though tis unlikely since he won't be whoring in synergy so much due to his low skill points) then they can make a quickened diplomacy check and win any encounter with an intelligent creature (don't worry Silvanos, I won't be doing this! I'll be using raw bard power... yeah.. bardpower! Be afraid mortals!). However, this is so broken that no one in their right mind uses it. Besides, he did say level ten and not twenty, at which point wizards aren't almighty yet.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-02-24, 05:07 PM
Eh, whine about WotC's playtesters, they're still better balanced than most of the 3rd-party d20 products on the market.

Anyway, I'm going to have to vote Wizard, on basis of versatility, which translates to overall usefulness. Clerics and Druids are ahead in melee combat at this level, and they've got healing if needed, but the Wizard can do utility, battlefield control, and/or ranged combat almost as well as CoDzilla can do those.

EDIT: Also, I'm not accounting for Diplomacy idiocy.

onasuma
2007-02-24, 05:08 PM
Cleric hands down. Healing, damaging, heavy armour and a mace. Its just pure awesomenessificatedified

Desaril
2007-02-24, 05:14 PM
I'm amazed that BWL was invited to the discussion at Wizards and the designers told him exactly why they made the game they did. I'm surprised he hasn't written a book on the subject "Under the Wizard's Robe" sounds like a nice title.

I'm convinced, by nothing other than years of watching the game develop, that the character classes are supposed to be fairly balanced. However, the balance that is acheived in the core books is going to be upset by the addition of new spells & abilities from new books.

I don't know if the designers/playtesters tried to "break" the system and design the most efficient characters possible before publishing the system. Ite seems to me that if they did, many of the less useful feats and abilities would have been screened out. On the other hand, they may have realized that an optimized character build is only optomized for certain situations and is therefore "balanced" by being less effective in other situations.

Matthew
2007-02-24, 05:22 PM
I don't think they intentionally made Spell Casters more powerful than other Classes. They made Clerics and Druids more powerful than previously and Wizards as well, but that doesn't equate to intentionally making them the more powerful classes. It's just a consequence of the transition of editions.

cupkeyk
2007-02-24, 07:27 PM
The only way a bard can be competitive with the rest of them as a caster is through Sublime chord, which is not available til 11. But Sorcs are not better than bards. Sorcs are just as as lousy with spells but Bards have SU's and Spell like's and more skills and a wider skill list.

I vote for UA Enchanter with Social Proficiency for the skill array and maxed spell power.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-24, 07:29 PM
Umm... sorcerers are vastly more capable spellcasters than bards. Vastly more spells/day, higher-level spells, more spells known, better spells... they're much better in every way.

Khantalas
2007-02-24, 07:32 PM
Bard.

"I'm here to spite you with excessive use of Knowledge skills! Bow down before my idiot savant abilities!"

That happened to me. Sort of. The wizard was too hurt with laughing to cast any spells.

Tobrian
2007-02-24, 07:35 PM
Druid. Most overpowered of the PHB core classes, even more powerful than the monk IMO.

Unless you mean "most powerful core caster class in regard to SPELLCASTING only"? Then I'd probably say Cleric: full spellcasting plus domains plus swapping spells.

Khantalas
2007-02-24, 07:37 PM
Monk... overpowered... against... all... beliefs... DR... overcome... how?..

*brain explodes*

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-24, 07:38 PM
Druid. Most overpowered of the PHB core classes, even more powerful than the monk IMO.

You. Um.
You *do* know the monk is among the *worst* classes in the game, right? ...right?

Ramza00
2007-02-24, 07:39 PM
Lets talk about mister druid compared to the fighters.
Starting at lvl 5 he is pure power.

I am a druid
I can change my shape and thus boost my strength. I can change my size giving me more bonuses in disarm, bullrush, trip, grapple checks. I am probally the best grappler due to my strength, size changing ability, and the forms I can assume. I have hps that are comparable to the fighter due to how I can put more points into Con. I have a lot of natural attacks, choose it right and I can make a number of attacks per round that is comparable to a full fighter or twf rogue. I can fly with ease.

I have a nice little animal companion which can be as useful as a tank as the main fighter. Especially if I buff him. Or I can choose an animal companion that is useful at scouting (especially if you get a wizard to cast invisibility on him, but since we are just talking about druids lets forget I said this). Unlike wizards when I loose my furry little friend I don't weap about my beloved xp loss. No I quickly move on and bond a new animal with the next 24 hours.

Additionally I am a full spellcaster. My spells are powerful they can heal, do damage, save or lose/suck, and they can control the enviorment better than any other class's spells.

Sure Wizard or Cleric may be able to do certain things better, but the Druid is a jack of all trades, and he does all his trades pretty damn well

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just think of it like this. A 10th lvl Fighter/Barbarian/Whatever against a 10th lvl Druid. Well the druid will be wildshape and have better strength than the warrior and comparable hps. With one 5th lvl spell stoneskin it gets dr 10/adamintine thus severly limiting the amount of damage the Fighter can do for the first 10 damage of every attack "disapears." If the druid is near death in this gruesome match he just spends a round to heal while the fighter can't do anything besides try to attack and hope for the druid's death.

This is before you even factor in the animal companion.

I think I know who wins a head on head match. And the reasons listed above show why the druid is also a better person to have on your team as a support/team player.

PirateMonk
2007-02-25, 12:35 PM
Nice input...


When I say "playtesters", I mean "gnomes on LSD".

I'd sig this, if I had the room... :smallannoyed:

its_all_ogre
2007-02-25, 03:03 PM
at level 10 i would go with druid. cleric falls slightly behind but its a tough call really.
wizard i do not vote for here, he has very low hps comparably, a rubbish fort save and low ac.
the other two generally have v good on both of those.
bard? you have to be joking? and monk? even more hilarious!
might as well just saw how overpowered the soulknife is.....

Varmus
2007-02-25, 03:33 PM
Definetely cleric.

Ability to wear the toughest armor, good hp and BAB, added to versality and quantity-per-day of spells (both damaging, buffing and healing), domain powers nad undead turning (that can be also used to buff yourself even more through specific feats) gives you the most versatile, powerful spellcaster in the game.

And the Druid is second in charge.

Tricycle_Knight
2007-02-25, 03:53 PM
Cleric. Here's why:


No problems wearing heavy armour
Can heal themselves and others
Can outfight fighters
Can cast several of the most powerful spells in the game
Domains allow access to some very powerful Wiz/Sor spells; few do the revese
Only has one poor save
Decent BAB
Go through undead, one of the most common enemies, like a hot knife through nothing


That, and clerics are just awesome.

Kantolin
2007-02-25, 04:11 PM
Hm.

You know, I voted for wizard as I think, if all three are played well, wizard wins out.

But I believe that the druid at least is in the running for the top due to ease of play. It's not hard to play a bad wizard (fireball!). It's a bit harder to play a 'bad' cleric but possibly - simply do not notice divine favor, divine power, or righteous might.

But druids pretty much auto-break themselves. I mean, everyone gets it into their heads to wild shape into a bear, and everyone realizes that the natural spell feat is pretty much the only feat in the PHB that's nifty for a druid. Maybe if you include a zillion noncore books the druid may end up not taking it, but druids auto-break without much effort.

Matthew
2007-02-25, 04:52 PM
Shouldn't this be titled "Which Core Primary Spell Caster is most over powered?"

tarbrush
2007-02-25, 04:53 PM
The answer obviously being

"D: All of the above"

Matthew
2007-02-25, 05:02 PM
Nah, that would be the answer to the question: "Which Core Primary Spell Caster is over powered?", not: "Which Core Primary Spell Caster is most over powered?"

okpokalypse
2007-02-25, 05:29 PM
At level 10 - it's a tough call. I'd probably go Druid at that point with Cleric and Wizard being a close 2nd and 3rd respectively.

As for the high-end, Cleric all the way. Anything a Wiz can do, a Cleric can do better. No he can't? Yes he can! :)

That is, if you allow Divine Meta-Magic... With the right item, at L20, a Cleric is virtually Undispellable. Yes, that's right. CL20 + 4 (Bead of Karma) + 4 (Divine SpellPower) + 1 Ioun Stone = CL 29. And it can be boosted further - I just don't have the books in front of me. I've seen Persists with CL 32, meaning it would take an Abjurer with non-Spell Level Dispel Bonuses via PrCs to even have a miniscule chance to Dispel the persistent effects.

While under such persistent effects, the Cleric has the following (usually):

Persisted Greater Visage of the Deity (SR, DR, Fly, Stat Bonuses)
Persisted Divine Power (Fighter BAB, +HP)

Not to mention no Arcane Spell Failure, d8 HD and better Will Saves. If you dip the right PrC, you can get Divine Grace as well - which is awesome for a Cleric as it's not uncommonly their secondary stat.

And the final two things that just sets them apart for me:

1. They don't need to learn spells. Wizards jump through a lot of hoops buying spells, scrolls and such - at least they're supposed to. Some DMs avoid that...

2. Their respective "game breaker" spells at the high end, Wish & Miracle, favor the Cleric as they have a load of non-xp uses for it, where Wish does not.

But here's my real question... Psion's are Core. Do they count? If so, I think a Psion is more powerful at all stages :)

Gralamin
2007-02-25, 05:32 PM
But here's my real question... Psion's are Core. Do they count? If so, I think a Psion is more powerful at all stages :)

Psions are weaker then Wizards if you follow the rules (eg. Maximum PP spent = your psion level)

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-25, 05:35 PM
Yeeeeeah, no. Psionics is very significantly weaker than arcane magic.

okpokalypse
2007-02-25, 06:53 PM
Psions are weaker then Wizards if you follow the rules (eg. Maximum PP spent = your psion level)

With over-channeling feats and effects that boost ML, at L20 I've seen a Psion capable of pumping in 26 PsP into a Power. And keep in mind, that's not per Round, but per Power.

First, Manifest a Quickened Schism. Now you've got two minds, one at -6 ML. With the rest of your round you can now go nuts!

With Meta-Power (Max), Priveledged Energy and Meta-Psionics on specific Energy-type (Sonic) spells, you're looking at an (Higher Mind) Empowered & Maxxed 24d6 (216 Sonic Damage) + an Empowered, Maxxed 18d6 (108 + 54 = 162 Sonic Damage). And that can be single target, multi target, spread area or cone depending on the spell. If the priveledge'd energy is Electricity, add +1 Damage per die. If it's Fire or Cold, add +2 Damage per die because of how the Psion Energy Powers work.

Then you've also got the fact that Psion's have their own version of Celerity which essentially allows the to act immediately, as an interrupt.

And it's not just the energy types of damage they can do. Losing the Priveledged Energy bonus, they could still utilize Force Powers, Mind-Affecting Damage (Recall Agony, Mind Thrust) and others. They've also got a pretty decent repotoire of "Save or Dies" just like a Wizard or Cleric - and more ability to up their spell DC than either. And last (but certainly not least) they've got the best repotoire of movement powers - specifically an effective swift-action Dim Door - and "second chance" powers - allowing them after-the-fact bonuses, and rerolls.

Their big drawback is that you enpty out your PSPs FAST. They're even more Int dependant than Wizard's because they need the bonus PSPs to be fully functional beyond 4 rounds of full-tilt combat :smallsmile:.

My own Psion at L20 has a 40 Int (Just over 500 PSP w/ Items), and I can empty him in 6 Rounds. Yes, 6 Rounds. Of course, he's also doing 600+ Area Damage a round during that span. Heh.

okpokalypse
2007-02-25, 07:07 PM
Yeeeeeah, no. Psionics is very significantly weaker than arcane magic.

I completely disagree. In 3.5 they're somewhat closer than they were in 3.0 - but they're by no means weaker. In fact, they have most of the same spell effects, and I find that because of over-channel and some of the more powerful psionic feats, that they're decidedly more efficient.

Check out some of the feats I've mentioned in the previous post - not to mention powers like Schism - which are exceedingly powerful.

They just empty out a lot faster.

Bears With Lasers
2007-02-25, 07:14 PM
Schism specifically says it doesn't do anything because of your next turn. Overchanneling requires focus expenditure, as do metapsionic feats (making stacking metapsionic feats difficult).

Psionics are better at damage (which, one should *hope*; damage is the arcanist's worst option), but they just plain have either no equivalents or significantly less good ones for most of the things that make wizards so powerful. Many of the things they do have equivalents for are personal-only when they're buffs.

Sure, you can build a highly optimized psion with a huge damage output--but you just plain have fewer effective options than the wizard, and your most effective options are less effective than his.

Rabiesbunny
2007-02-25, 07:23 PM
Clerics FTW! They can be tanks, healers, and blow crap up in the same fight!

Armads
2007-02-26, 06:10 AM
Druids. At level 10, i get a brown bear who chews through most enemies and can singlehandedly kill our party meat shield or the cleric (due to mage slayer and pierce magical protection), wall of thorns, animal growth, and dire lion goodness.

ravenkith
2007-02-26, 05:42 PM
I voted for Druid, assuming natural spell.

Wizard, in core, doesn't really get the full effect of his spells until 12th level, when he starts getting some of the more dangerous 6th level spells.

Cleric doesn't have enough offensive oomph, because most of his super-buffs are 6th level or higher, as well.

Druid, on the other hand, at 10th level, has gotten hold of the ability to morph into large animals, has a number of useful buff spells at his disposal, and is the only character who can tank, cast offensively and heal effectively at the given level.

All of these come in one package.

Yes, while the wizard can cast offensively, and, with polymorph, tank, he cannot heal in core.

Sure, the Cleric can heal and tank, but his offensive capability is severely limited (again, in core).

Without splatbooks, the most versatile (and therefore most likely to overcome any given situation read: powerful) caster, has to be the Druid.

PirateMonk
2007-02-28, 07:56 PM
So, any idea why bards are beating sorcerers? :smallamused:

Zincorium
2007-02-28, 08:05 PM
So, any idea why bards are beating sorcerers? :smallamused:

Former or current bard defense league, my arch-nemesis's.

AmoDman
2007-02-28, 08:09 PM
Beguiler. What? Actually, they're not all that super-powerful, and only "core" in campaign settings where that means all "core" splats.

Anywho, for the actual list, I CAN'T DECIDE! *headsplosion*

- No vote cast.

MeklorIlavator
2007-02-28, 08:28 PM
Actually, there was a article on wizards of the coast where the game designers said that the cleric was the most powerful. It was some sort of contest where they had people send in there opinions on questions to see how many came close to what designers had to say. One question was "What is the most powerful class", and Cleric was the answer.

cupkeyk
2007-02-28, 08:43 PM
So, any idea why bards are beating sorcerers? :smallamused:

Because Sorcerer is just not worth it. It's for people who are too lazy/stupid to be wizard. With the onset of the warmage, the dread necro and the beguiler, it is all the more obvious that it is never worth it to go sorceror. Bards fill a better niche in the party than the sorcs. Sorcs are just gimped wizards. Bards are almost gishes. Considering the Bard 6/ Lyric Thaumaturge 4 /Sublime Chord 10, it is now simply stupid to sorc when a bard will get better AC, better HP, and better array of class features and the nearly same number of spells per day from two caster lists. Bards even get better fluff.

But it's still wizzie that wins for me.

Missing Shoe
2007-02-28, 08:51 PM
http://www.cs.iastate.edu/%7Eanima/casters.jpg

What I took into account:
In battle usefulness
Out of battle usefulness
Team player
Solo strength

Overall Wizards win in my opinion. They start off really weak. They have a couple of nice spells which if the enemy makes their save they are pretty much done for the day. Eventually though, they have more spells and can do incredible things. They may be weak physically but they have enough arcane power to help them out.

Sorcerers are in the same boat as Wizards for the most part. Initially they start off better because the ability to cast anything they know whenever makes for a better use of their daily limit. However their spell limitation screws them in the end. Through scrolls and other magic devices though they can make up not knowing the most obscure, only useful in situation x spells.

Druids and Clerics have the nice advantage of not completely sucking in melee. The CoDzilla can be extremely powerful indeed, but overall their spells arent as good as the Wizards. The cleric especially plays a vital role to the party which makes them popular for any party to have. Druids are less useful to the party but they still can hold their own against almost anything.

In battle is where the bard fails hard. Out of battle they redeem themselves big time. Soloing as a bard could be troublesome in battle. Since they are situational and their lack of spells is kind of sucky, thats why they get last place. Don't get me wrong, Bards have their place, but compared to the others, they cant keep up.

cupkeyk
2007-02-28, 09:01 PM
But look, sorcs are still losing. LOLz. Because they are the SUCK.

AtomicKitKat
2007-03-01, 07:56 AM
Wizards. People often forget that Clerics and Druids can be "cut off" by their higher powers(even if you're a Cleric of an "Ideal", you may not have acted in the interests of the "Ideal" in recent times, so cut off till you've repented). Sorcerers wish they could be as powerful as Wizards. Bards cry themselves to sleep at night(in the arms of a paramour, naturally).

ravenkith
2007-03-01, 10:13 AM
In core, Sorcerors, rightfully, get no love.

They get a slowed version of spellcasting, crappy hit die, crappy bab, crappy fort and ref, and next to know class abilities to make up for all the losses.

Throw some splats in, though, and take the right classes, and they become more of a threat.

First off, the PHBII allows for a sorc variant that scrubs his familiar in favor of being able to use metamagic without increasing casting time.

Second, with the Arcane Preperation feat, A sorceror can qualify for the Mage of the Arcane order Prestige class, four levels of which go a long way to reducing the level of suckitude that the sorceror base class has reached.

Add to that some levels of Incantatrix, probably dropping evocation along the way, to add in some beef.

Throw on the Arcane Thesis feat, and pick a spell that you like that will affect as wide a range of opponents as possible.

Be sure to grab quicken spell.

Don't forget to pick up spellcasting items such as scrolls and wands, to use with your metamagic feats.

Still, even with all the jiggery-pokery, they are far from the best, and seriously need some PRC-lovin' from WOTC to make them competitive again.
But they're at least viable.

Indon
2007-03-01, 10:21 AM
Wizards. People often forget that Clerics and Druids can be "cut off" by their higher powers(even if you're a Cleric of an "Ideal", you may not have acted in the interests of the "Ideal" in recent times, so cut off till you've repented). Sorcerers wish they could be as powerful as Wizards. Bards cry themselves to sleep at night(in the arms of a paramour, naturally).

By the same token, one rogue with a sufficiently high move silently and sleight of hand in the middle of the night can strip away almost all of a wizards' spells, leaving him with less than a sorceror until he spends tens of thousands of gold reaquiring them ("Hey, the handwriting in this pre-prepared spellbook looks a whole lot like mine does...").

AtomicKitKat
2007-03-01, 11:25 AM
By the same token, one rogue with a sufficiently high move silently and sleight of hand in the middle of the night can strip away almost all of a wizards' spells, leaving him with less than a sorceror until he spends tens of thousands of gold reaquiring them ("Hey, the handwriting in this pre-prepared spellbook looks a whole lot like mine does...").

This is where Batman wins. Again. He divines "Are there any threats to my spellbook/bedroom within the next week?". And has a couple of sham spellbooks. As well as Signature Spell. Preferrably Explosive Runes, which he puts on each page of his sham spellbooks. "Your Honour, I have here the head *jaw falls off the skull*, or what's left of it of the infamous Burglar Borin Ohod." "I see, Mogdar the Magnificent. *Court Cleric casts Speak With Dead, confirms the skull is legit* I hereby award you with 50 thousand gold pieces, the bounty for the capture or death of Borin Hood." "Thank you, your Honour.*Goes off to buy a few new sham spellbooks.*"

Wizards are a lot less susceptible to "spell loss" than any divine caster(DM can just say "Your God hates you.", vs
"In the middle of the night, a burg..."
"Wait a minute, I divined for this week, there wasn't supposed to be any burglary, you cheater!"
"I...uhh...you sleep peacefully?"
"Damn right I do!"

Sorcerors would win in the no-prep department, but the Wizard already foresaw this last year and pimp-slaps the Sorc for his presumptuousness.:smallbiggrin:

cupkeyk
2007-03-01, 11:32 AM
By the same token, one rogue with a sufficiently high move silently and sleight of hand in the middle of the night can strip away almost all of a wizards' spells, leaving him with less than a sorceror until he spends tens of thousands of gold reaquiring them ("Hey, the handwriting in this pre-prepared spellbook looks a whole lot like mine does...").

There are entire chapters on how to prevent this. Particularly constructing a sort of magical trap that triggers a teleport spell, wisking your spellbook to safety.

Only a stupid wizard will be caught without a spellbook. Since int is their prime requisite score, it will never happen. NEVER.

As for Sorcs vs. Bard, for me Bard, assuming 3.5 splatbooks are available for use, wins. A 19 CHA Bard5 Mind Bender1 Lyric Thaumaturge4 Sublime Chord gets a BAB of 11, 7/11/17 saves, and the following spells per day / spells known(spell level): 3/6(0) 5/5(1) 5/5(2) 4/4(3) 7/6(4) 4/4(5) 4/4(6) 4/4(7) 3/3(8) 2/2(9), spell casting in light armor, better array of class skills access to UMD which gives him access to Metamagic Spell Trigger, making him an Incantatar all by himself, better hitpoints and supernatural and spell like abilities via his bard song that boost allies and his own spellcasting abilities alike.

A 19 CHA Sorc gets spells :6/9(0) 7/5(1) 7/5(2) 7/4(3) 7/4(4) 6/4(5) 6/3(6) 6/3(7) 6/3(8) 6/3(9) and a pretty small niche in a the party given his lack of flexibilty. Accessing mage of the Arcane Order requires the crappy Cooperative Spell, plus the Item creation feat and the metamagic feat and Iron Will for Incantatrix and Arcane Thesis and Arcane Preparation takes up six of the seven feats they get in their career(though they get five bonus metamagic feats from the MotAO and Incantatrix). The means for Sorcs to redeem themselves seem like a pretty bleak path to thread when it would have been easier to just go wizard.

Druid
2007-03-01, 11:36 AM
I voted for me. For cleric's to be the best relies on nightstick chease which is stupid and the wizards reliance on spell books, planning ahead, and actualy finding the right spells leaves too much room for DM fiat.

Leush
2007-03-01, 11:38 AM
Yes, yes he would. Because there is no way at all to guard against divination. It never ever requires saves, and you know, rogues who specialise in spellbook theft know nothing about any possible ways to defend it and will immediately read any runes on it, as soon as he sees it, might I add. In addition he possesses no magic devices to protect and help him, because, you know, he's a rogue and rogues don't get UMD as a class skill... *Huffs*

Hmm... I wish I had something consturctive to add to that, oo I know! A wizard usually does win, if he's particularly high level, however, that applies only to non-adventuring wizard who has a lot of time and wealth on his hands... An adventuring wizard doesn't have the time. He really really doesn't. Especially if the DM crits an intimidate check.

Cupkeyk: A wizard is only as smart as his player.

cupkeyk
2007-03-01, 11:44 AM
I keep my trapped spellbook inside my secret chest which is inside my familiar pocket which can only be opened by me or my familiar... wait I don't have a familiar.

That rogue can travel to the astral plane and get my actual chest from there...

And I have a copy of it at home, guarded by my mom I guess LOLz.

Titanium Dragon
2007-03-01, 11:45 AM
I’d say Druid, then Cleric. I feel them both to be stronger than Wizards due to their various abilities, higher hit dice, ability to wear armor, and various other nifty little things which make them a bit stronger and more versatile. The ability to heal others certainly helps as well.


Except that nowhere is there a definition of how strong they should be. There are some implications, sure, but it is NOT said, and since they DID intentionally make the 3.0/3.5 cleric/druid stronger than other classes (I'm guessing the ridiculousness of wizards was unintentional; maybe their playtesters play blaster casters), they're clearly NOT defining the classes to be equally powerful.

I would agree; most of the spells which cause problems are not ones which do direct damage but do other things which, in the hands of a lot of players, can cause issues. The power of spells like Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, Forcecage, and numerous other battlefield control spells is extremely large.

The other issue, though, is conditions in which they were tested. A lot of spells become massively better or worse in wilderness encounters, and flying abilities can make enemies like dragons far, far nastier foes.


But seriously, if you don't take the bard (or rogue, or monk or anything else with diplomacy as a class skill even cleric I assume- which now that I think about might allow him to win, even though tis unlikely since he won't be whoring in synergy so much due to his low skill points) then they can make a quickened diplomacy check and win any encounter with an intelligent creature (don't worry Silvanos, I won't be doing this! I'll be using raw bard power... yeah.. bardpower! Be afraid mortals!). However, this is so broken that no one in their right mind uses it. Besides, he did say level ten and not twenty, at which point wizards aren't almighty yet.

Well yes, there is always the argument that a bard with a successful Diplomacy check can instantly and invariably make every foe he ever encounters apathetic at worst, and often friendly. I rather suspect, however, that the Diplomacy skill was never really intended to be used against monsters, and rather to be used against “people”. Even so, per the standard rules Diplomacy is broken.


You *do* know the monk is among the *worst* classes in the game, right? ...right?

The monk is very twinkable, though I would agree that outside of twink builds, they’re pretty weak.


bard? you have to be joking? and monk? even more hilarious!

Bards are actually very good if you have a large party; a party of 8 is better off with a single bard in it than it would be with something else pretty much invariably IMO due to its mass buffing powers. However, a party of 4 has more important things to do, so they’re a bit underpowered in that situation.

iop
2007-03-01, 11:50 AM
Which primary core caster class is best?
'Best' meaning the most powerful and useful, with equally experienced and intelligent design, in an adventure with a reasonable mix of foes, at, say, level 10.
What for exactly? There are many kinds of adventures

Arena combat?
Melee combat?
Naked fighting?
RP encounters?
Party support?
Potential to make interesting characters?

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-01, 11:56 AM
By the same token, one rogue with a sufficiently high move silently and sleight of hand in the middle of the night can strip away almost all of a wizards' spells, leaving him with less than a sorceror until he spends tens of thousands of gold reaquiring them ("Hey, the handwriting in this pre-prepared spellbook looks a whole lot like mine does...").

Sorry, that doesn't work. The Rogue can't get past the Alarm or into the Rope Trick. What's more, a mid-to-high level can trap his spellbook.

Orzel
2007-03-01, 11:59 AM
The only way to steal a wizard's spellbook is to charm him and make him hand it to you when his last anti-mind affect spell wears off... which is never.

Telonius
2007-03-01, 12:54 PM
At that level, wizards, very closely followed by druids, then clerics. The thing that pushed it over for me was 5th-level spell selection; wizards have an edge there.

Woot Spitum
2007-03-01, 01:23 PM
Clerics. All the classes are powerful, but the cleric is the best at making everyone else better. The cleric is also the hardest to kill, whereas the wizard and sorcerer die the moment they have to make a fortitude save. The great avoidance spells the wiz/sor get become less effective later in the game as countermeasures become more common. As for stealing a wizard's spellbook, you don't have to take the book itself, just the bag of holding it's in. If the wizard is carrying it uses an ordinary pack, just set it on fire.

AtomicKitKat
2007-03-01, 02:33 PM
The only Rogue who even gets to sniff the Wizard's spellbook would be in his own party(Wizard always keeps it within reach, and you can't enter his Magnificent Mansion/Tiny Hut/Lodge/Rope Trick unless you're his "pal"). Trying to "bump" it from him en passant is likely to trigger an Alarm.

PirateMonk
2007-03-03, 11:23 AM
What for exactly? There are many kinds of adventures

Arena combat?
Melee combat?
Naked fighting?
RP encounters?
Party support?
Potential to make interesting characters?

Okay, let's call it a mixed campaign that starts at 10 and for some reason, no matter how much XP they get, they can never go up to 11.