Martial Study

[Dr. Cliché]

Let's say I have a Lv10 warblade, can I use the Martial Study feat to gain a Manaeuver that would normally only be available to another class?

e.g. Can I take Shadow Stride (which would be within my level-range), even though I'm not a Swordsage?

I guess I'm just a little confused in general about the whole 'perquisite' part. I mean, the feat specifies that you need to meet the perquisites in order to take the manaeuver, and Shadow Stride has none. But then, by this logic, I'd be able to take this as a Lv1 fighter. On the other hand, if the class level if part of the perquisites, then there would be no point in the feat making allowances for non-martial characters - since no such character would ever be able to access manaeuvers. :smallconfused:

Have I missed something?

[eggynack]

Your level only counts for half for the purposes of picking up swordsage maneuvers with martial study, as would be the case for any class which doesn't get those maneuvers. Thus, you cannot use martial study to get shadow stride at level 10. You would have to wait till level 18, when your effective swordsage level for this purpose would be 9, thus granting access to 5th level maneuvers. You can, however, pick up 3rd level swordsage maneuvers with martial study.

[Dr. Cliché]

Your level only counts for half for the purposes of picking up swordsage maneuvers with martial study, as would be the case for any class which doesn't get those maneuvers. Thus, you cannot use martial study to get shadow stride at level 10. You would have to wait till level 18, when your effective swordsage level for this purpose would be 9, thus granting access to 5th level maneuvers. You can, however, pick up 3rd level swordsage maneuvers with martial study.

Out of interest, where's that in the rules?

[Fouredged Sword]

Yes, that is expressly what the feat does when you have an initiator level and method of preparing maneuvers. It adds a single maneuver from any school to your maneuvers known.

[DeltaEmil]

Out of interest, where's that in the rules?On page 39 of Tome of Battle.

[jiriku]

This is a legitimately gray area of the rules. Martial Study specifies that you must meet prerequisites. Possessing an appropriate number of class levels in specific martial adept classes is definitely a prererequisite of every maneuver. However, the feat is clearly intended to be taken by characters with no levels in any such classes, so it contains an implied ability to ignore class and level requirements. However, if all class and level requirements were ignored, a 1st level character could gain inappropriately powerful maneuvers.

A reasonable call is that you ignore class requirements, but you still need to meet an appropriate initiator level requirement. I'd say that since the maneuver is going to be added to your warblade maneuvers list, it's entirely reasonable to use your full warblade initiator level to meet the requirement. That's how it's always been played at my table, both for PCs and monsters. Thus, you'd qualify for the maneuver since it requires a martial initiator level of 9th and your initiator level is 10th.

[eggynack]

This is a legitimately gray area of the rules. Martial Study specifies that you must meet prerequisites. Possessing an appropriate number of class levels in specific martial adept classes is definitely a prererequisite of every maneuver. However, the feat is clearly intended to be taken by characters with no levels in any such classes, so it contains an implied ability to ignore class and level requirements. However, if all class and level requirements were ignored, a 1st level character could gain inappropriately powerful maneuvers.

There doesn't seem to be much ambiguity at all. Characters with no levels in martial adept classes have a clearly existent method of using martial study, and so do classes with levels in the wrong martial adept class. There is no clear intention in the opposite direction.

[Auramis]

A reasonable call is that you ignore class requirements, but you still need to meet an appropriate initiator level requirement. I'd say that since the maneuver is going to be added to your warblade maneuvers list, it's entirely reasonable to use your full warblade initiator level to meet the requirement. That's how it's always been played at my table, both for PCs and monsters. Thus, you'd qualify for the maneuver since it requires a martial initiator level of 9th and your initiator level is 10th.

This is what we've done at our table before. Applies for initiator multi-classing too. Like, if you're a level 3 Crusader and a level 2 Cleric for example (we'll say he's going for prestige paladin or something), we count the initiator level as the initiator class's level (3) plus half of everything else (1), so it'd be 4 in this case. You'd have whatever maneuvers are available to a level 4 initiator if you took Martial Study.

[Dr. Cliché]

On page 39 of Tome of Battle.

I can find no such rule.

The only thing I see is a reference to characters with no initiator levels. Considering that the aforementioned character has 10 initiator levels, that cannot possibly apply.


This is a legitimately gray area of the rules. Martial Study specifies that you must meet prerequisites. Possessing an appropriate number of class levels in specific martial adept classes is definitely a prererequisite of every maneuver. However, the feat is clearly intended to be taken by characters with no levels in any such classes, so it contains an implied ability to ignore class and level requirements. However, if all class and level requirements were ignored, a 1st level character could gain inappropriately powerful maneuvers.

A reasonable call is that you ignore class requirements, but you still need to meet an appropriate initiator level requirement. I'd say that since the maneuver is going to be added to your warblade maneuvers list, it's entirely reasonable to use your full warblade initiator level to meet the requirement. That's how it's always been played at my table, both for PCs and monsters. Thus, you'd qualify for the maneuver since it requires a martial initiator level of 9th and your initiator level is 10th.

Ok, that seems reasonable, thanks. :smallsmile:

[eggynack]

I can find no such rule.

The only thing I see is a reference to characters with no initiator levels. Considering that the aforementioned character has 10 initiator levels, that cannot possibly apply.

Check the section for multiclass characters. The rule there states that the 1/2 initiator level explicitly applies to characters with initiator levels that are of the wrong type. In fact, the main example given is of a crusader 7/swordsage 5.

[Dr. Cliché]

Check the section for multiclass characters. The rule there states that the 1/2 initiator level explicitly applies to characters with initiator levels that are of the wrong type. In fact, the main example given is of a crusader 7/swordsage 5.

But, surely that only applies to multiclass characters?

There is no allowance for single-class characters to use those rules.

[eggynack]

But, surely that only applies to multiclass characters?

There is no allowance for single-class characters to use those rules.
There's no real indication of such a division. The process just applies to all of a character's levels, multiclassed or not. The reason it's in a section called "multiclass characters" is because the fact that you count as having half your IL for incompatible maneuvers is usually irrelevant unless you multiclass. This is how you meet the prerequisite of IL. Otherwise, you cannot meet it.

[Dr. Cliché]

There's no real indication of such a division.

"If you are a multiclass martial adept..."

[eggynack]

"If you are a multiclass martial adept..."
Well, it also says, "and you learn a new maneuver by attaining a new level..." and that's not happening either. It's somewhat irrelevant though. This is just the established way in which you calculate initiator level. This is really the best case scenario for you here. Otherwise, you just don't get the maneuver at all, cause you don't meet the prerequisite.

[Dr. Cliché]

Well, it also says, "and you learn a new maneuver by attaining a new level..." and that's not happening either.

Which makes it less relevant - not more. :smalltongue:

[prufock]

There's no real indication of such a division. The process just applies to all of a character's levels, multiclassed or not. The reason it's in a section called "multiclass characters" is because the fact that you count as having half your IL for incompatible maneuvers is usually irrelevant unless you multiclass. This is how you meet the prerequisite of IL. Otherwise, you cannot meet it.

It does, however, only apply to maneuvers you take as a specific class - see the example crusader/swordsage and the wording "maneuvers he takes as a crusader."

Martial Study has no such restriction, though. You only check 1) what is my initiator level (in this case, 10) and 2) does the maneuver have prerequisites (in this case, no). You are not required to have initiator level from a particular class to select a maneuver with this feat.

[Fouredged Sword]

Actually, while there is a division between maneuvers readied using one method of refreshing maneuvers or another, there is no division within each method of preparing maneuvers.

Take a warblade / swordsage / crusader multiclass.

He has mountain hammer known on all his class maneuvers known. It is on ALL his class lists. When he uses it from his warblade readied maneuvers it's initiator level is his warblade initiator level (War + (Swo+Cru)/2). When used from his swordsage readied maneuvers, it's his swordsage initiator level. When used form his crusader granted maneuvers, he gets his crusader initiator level.

You are restricted in what schools maneuvers you can select as you gain levels in each class, and you must track your maneuvers known separately for each class. Martial study gets around this restriction by adding a single maneuver from ANY list to ANY classes maneuvers known.

The items that grant a maneuver known work on the same mechanic. You can use a pair of shadow hand gloves to get a shadow hand strike on your warblade maneuvers known list.