Is Mindbender worth the dip without Mindsight?

[Werephilosopher]

As the title says, really.

Mindbender does advance spellcasting at first level, and telepathy with 100 feet of range is a pretty fine thing to have even without Mindsight. But is it worth putting off levels in other prcs?

[the humanity]

Flavorfully I'd say yes. Telepathy is cool.

It also allows a smart, intelligent wizard to tell the sneaking rogue and the tank his strategy without the big bad dragon overhearing and planning around it. Or threatening a hobgoblin without the paladin protecting the helpless on you.

It's not as effective as Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil or Incantatrix, but it's certainly worth it if being telepathic is on your cool idea list.

[weckar]

It's still worth it, but why WOULDN'T you want mindsight? It's pretty hard to shield against, and effectively allows you to never be ambushed or trapped by invisible creatures. Also, being the "I know you're there" guy, without even needing to talk to them? Totally badass.

[Nettlekid]

As a single level dip with very little investment if you can swing the skill ranks, it's hard to find reason NOT to slot it in somewhere. Mindsight is strong but as has been said, don't underestimate the potential of a wide reach of nonverbal communication. Especially if you're doing anything with an espionage flair to it, Telepathy is very powerful. Also, a level in Mindbender might stagger some other PrC class features until they're more beneficial, like any kind of Expanded Spellbook feature.

[Werephilosopher]

It's still worth it, but why WOULDN'T you want mindsight? It's pretty hard to shield against, and effectively allows you to never be ambushed or trapped by invisible creatures. Also, being the "I know you're there" guy, without even needing to talk to them? Totally badass.

My group has ruled that immunity to mind-affecting effects, as well as nondetection (and thus rings of mind shielding) block it. A fair rule, in my opinion- but it does make it less useful at higher levels.

[Nettlekid]

My group has ruled that immunity to mind-affecting effects, as well as nondetection (and thus rings of mind shielding) block it. A fair rule, in my opinion- but it does make it less useful at higher levels.

In a way that's still handy; if you see something and it doesn't *ping* on your radar then you know not to waste time with anything mind-affecting or the like. Similarly, although at high-level play most players steer clear of any kind of Enchantments because they assume any and all foes will be shielded, if anything DOES come up on Mindsight then you know you're free to use those Enchantments. Maybe a little too much of a niche for a feat slot, but it would still have it's uses. If your DM rules that other, cheaper effects (like a Permanencied Arcane Sight) would also register or not for Mind Blanked targets, then this trick becomes less handy in favor of alternatives.

[Werephilosopher]

In a way that's still handy; if you see something and it doesn't *ping* on your radar then you know not to waste time with anything mind-affecting or the like. Similarly, although at high-level play most players steer clear of any kind of Enchantments because they assume any and all foes will be shielded, if anything DOES come up on Mindsight then you know you're free to use those Enchantments. Maybe a little too much of a niche for a feat slot, but it would still have it's uses. If your DM rules that other, cheaper effects (like a Permanencied Arcane Sight) would also register or not for Mind Blanked targets, then this trick becomes less handy in favor of alternatives.

That... is a very good idea. All the time I spent pondering this, how did I not think of it? :smallannoyed:

Thanks!

[John Longarrow]

IIRC, MindBender is also the odd duck pClass that gives an arcane casters a strong FORT. That's from a note I've got about quick entry into Ur-Priest.

[Thiyr]

Is it mindsight that's blocked, or telepathy?

Because I admit, I've always wanted to try messing with people's heads over a long period of time. Talk to them with telepathy while hidden, but use bluff/disguise/detect surface thoughts to convince them that you are them. That is, the voice in their head ISN'T an outside entity, but just them thinking things through. Slow, subtle manipulation. Because that'd be awesome. But still, telepathy is one of those things that tends to be useful. I'd say its worth the dip if the prereqs don't take you too far out of your way.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Since the only investment the class requires is some skill ranks that you might have already if you're playing a classic social enchanter, the answer is definetly yes, unless your delaying a level of something much stronger like Incantrix.