Need Help with Ranger 1 / Fighter 7 Build

[Jay R]

I'm about to join my first game of 3.5E. I'm told the party needs brawn, so my character is primarily a Fighter. I've started him as a Ranger mostly for the additional skill points and wilderness skills.

So a human Ranger 1 / Fighter 6 gets 8 Feats, and I've never used Feats before. What are your recommendations?

I'm assuming a greatsword as the primary weapon, so my first thought is:
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Weapon Focus - Greatsword
Weapon Specialization - Greatsword
Power Attack
Mobility
Spring Attack
Whirlwind Attack

Many of those are just to get Whirlwind Attack. If I'm the primary meatshield, I should try to hit everything in reach.

What am I missing? What do you suggest?

[Juntao112]

Everything aside from Combat Expertise and Power Attack is not worth the investment.

What is your intended role?

Battlefield control fighter, charger, tank, etc?

Offhand, its good to take Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, grab a Spiked Chain or Guisarme, and keep enemies from reaching the wizard, bard, etc in the back while the party fills the enemy with holes.

You could go for two levels in Ranger to get Two Weapon Fighting, which would let you make attacks with a two handed weapon and Armor Spikes.

Here, this (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=47434) might be a useful example.

[Teapot Salty]

I'm about to join my first game of 3.5E. I'm told the party needs brawn, so my character is primarily a Fighter. I've started him as a Ranger mostly for the additional skill points and wilderness skills.

So a human Ranger 1 / Fighter 6 gets 8 Feats, and I've never used Feats before. What are your recommendations?

I'm assuming a greatsword as the primary weapon, so my first thought is:
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Weapon Focus - Greatsword
Weapon Specialization - Greatsword
Power Attack
Mobility
Spring Attack
Whirlwind Attack

Many of those are just to get Whirlwind Attack. If I'm the primary meatshield, I should try to hit everything in reach.

What am I missing? What do you suggest?

What sourcebooks are aloud? Is the game optimized? Regardless, you should take power attack as soon as possible, as it is pretty much the best choice for every level. A nifty idea is to take improved trip or one of those, giving you the ability to control the battlefield and attack if all goes well. Weapon focus/specialization arn't to to good, but they can be nice.

[Jay R]

Everything aside from Combat Expertise and Power Attack is not worth the investment.

I thought Whirlwind attack would be worth it, since it would get me an attack on everyone in reach. Then the advantage of two weapons and Cleave would be unnecessary. Does that not work?


What is your intended role?

Battlefield control fighter, charger, tank, etc?

Mostly keeping the enemy off the spellcasters and absorbing the physical damage.


Offhand, its good to take Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, grab a Spiked Chain or Guisarme, and keep enemies from reaching the wizard, bard, etc in the back while the party fills the enemy with holes.

I won't take a Spiked Chain. It's an impossible weapon that can't really work in most situations. It works fine within the D&D rules, but if it were as good as the rules say, it would have taken over the European battlefield. Feel free to consider this me being stupid, but I won't take a spike chain.

Why a guisarme? It does 2/3 the damage of a greatsword, and crits less often. It has reach, but so does a glaive, with more damage. (And both are useless as soon as somebody gets close. My DM knows how to defeat a long weapon at least as well as I do.)

I'm not trying to argue; it's a real question - how do you fight with a guisarme against three mooks who all know enough to get inside? You only get a AoO on one, and then you're helpless.

I thought about Improved Trip, Disarm, and Overrun. One reason I didn't choose one is I wasn't sure which one. Why do you prefer Trip?


You could go for two levels in Ranger to get Two Weapon Fighting, which would let you make attacks with a two handed weapon and Armor Spikes.

A second level of Ranger would cost me Fighter level 6, and a Feat. If I wanted Two Weapons Fighting, I could simply choose it as a Fighter, and it wouldn't cost me a d8 instead of a d10 in hit points.


Here, this (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=47434) might be a useful example.

Thanks. I'll study it more tomorrow.


What sourcebooks are aloud?

As far as I know, the PHB and the DMG. Even if he has others, I don't, and can't afford them.


Is the game optimized?

I have no idea. My abilities are 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, and 18, and I can swap out 2 for 1. With a +1 at 4th level, my current plan is:
STR: 20
DEX: 16
CON: 17 (up to 18 at 8th level)
INT: 14
WIS: 14
CHA: 12

I have 57,000 (3x WBL) for equipment, including any magic item in the DMG.


Regardless, you should take power attack as soon as possible, as it is pretty much the best choice for every level. A nifty idea is to take improved trip or one of those, giving you the ability to control the battlefield and attack if all goes well. Weapon focus/specialization arn't to to good, but they can be nice.

OK, thanks. Why aren't weapon focus /specialization good? I assumed they were almost automatic.

You're the second one to recommend Improved Trip. Why is it better than Improved Disarm, and why isn't Whirlwind Attack favored?

Again, I'm not arguing with you; I'm trying to learn the system.

[Juntao112]

I thought Whirlwind attack would be worth it, since it would get me an attack on everyone in reach. Then the advantage of two weapons and Cleave would be unnecessary. Does that not work?
You will seldom be in a position to use Whirlwind attack to its fullest potential; by the time you get it, you can also just perform a full attack and hit multiple people that way. If it was just a feat on its own, it wouldn't be bad, but the pre-requisites are terrible and really drag it down.

Cleave isn't bad, but it is not great either.


I won't take a Spiked Chain. It's an impossible weapon that can't really work in most situations. It works fine within the D&D rules, but if it were as good as the rules say, it would have taken over the European battlefield. Feel free to consider this me being stupid, but I won't take a spike chain.

You do not like them.
So you say.
Try them! Try them!
And you may.
Try them and you may I say. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzrHg5GOvXE)


Why a guisarme? It does 2/3 the damage of a greatsword, and crits less often. It has reach, but so does a glaive, with more damage. (And both are useless as soon as somebody gets close. My DM knows how to defeat a long weapon at least as well as I do.)
A glaive doesn't have this bit of text: "You can also use it to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the guisarme to avoid being tripped."

As your role is to keep people from moving past you and killing the wizard, I think a bit of reach would be very useful.


I'm not trying to argue; it's a real question - how do you fight with a guisarme against three mooks who all know enough to get inside? You only get a AoO on one, and then you're helpless.
More, with Combat Reflexes.

And if they get close, you break out the Armor Spikes.


I thought about Improved Trip, Disarm, and Overrun. One reason I didn't choose one is I wasn't sure which one. Why do you prefer Trip?

Many of the MM creatures do not have weapons and cannot be disarmed. Overrun only works on creatures 1 size category larger than you or smaller; this will end up being quite a lot of the MM later on.


A second level of Ranger would cost me Fighter level 6, and a Feat. If I wanted Two Weapons Fighting, I could simply choose it as a Fighter, and it wouldn't cost me a d8 instead of a d10 in hit points.
You don't need to meet the Dex requirement for TWF if you get it from being a Ranger.

Fighter's best used as a dip most of the time in core. There are few good fighter feats, and the dead levels and lack of skill points means you're getting a poor return on investment.


OK, thanks. Why aren't weapon focus /specialization good? I assumed they were almost automatic.
Minor bonuses to one type of weapon. Want to use the Lance of Longinus you found? No bonus for you! Excalibur? Nope! Mjolnir? Pffft.

[Teapot Salty]

Weapon focus/specialization generally isn't to good because they only offer a +1 to attacks and +2 to damage. Neither of those really matter, particularly the accuracy bonus, since your hitting almost all the time anyway. That said, once you have no better options, by all means take them.

Improved trip is hailed as the best, in my opinion for two reasons: 1: You can do it to almost anything. Against a bear, improved disarm or sunder will not do you much good. Also overrun is just bad.

2: It hurts the most. With bull rush your pushing them, with trip, they are prone and provoking attack of opportunity's to stand up.

Guisarm is hailed as better than a glaive AND greatsword for two reasons: +4 to trip. It's just nice, and is a more than good trade for slightly less damage of a glaive.

It has reach, making it better than a greatsword. If they get in your bubble you can just five foot step away and whack them again. Or alternatively, you could take quick draw and pull out your greatsword as a free action and whack them.

And a combination of these, before you take improved trip, you can trip without provoking an attack of opportunity, which is nice. (Your to far away to hit)

In general, weapon damage is inferior to combat options.

If you are going to be a tank to take hits, you don't really need to have dodge/mobility/spring attack, as you generally should only be moving to a better position to protect the casters. Spring attack/whirlwind attack are nice, but dodge/mobility are horrible, and it generally isn't worth two crappy feats to get a alright feat (spring) and a good one (whirlwind)

My recommendations are:

lv1 Power attack, combat expertise.
lv2 Improved trip
lv3 Quick draw Improved initiative (+4 to initiative, let's you get in position to protect earlier)
lv5 improved bull rush (get them away from the casters, as a bit of a panic button.)
lv6 anything really
lv7 anything really

[Flickerdart]

The Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-%28Core-Melee-Build%29) is a core-only build that's great at doing the thing you want - keeping enemies occupied and out of the casters' faces. As a level 7 character you'd start as a Ranger 3/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Horizon Walker 2. Barbarian is honestly pretty optional, since 1/day Rage and +10ft of movement don't help you all that much, so you can go Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Horizon Walker 2 if you want to. Take Horizon Walker up to level 6 so you get Dimension Door from the Shifting Planar Terrain Mastery, and then do whatever.

The thing to remember about D&D is that fighter levels don't really make you very brawny. The only thing you're getting there (beyond the armour proficiencies gained at 1st level) is a d10 hit die, which is an average of 5.5 hit points per level. A d8 hit die is only 1 hit point lower on average, but a barbarian's d12 is 1 hit point higher on average. So by level 7, the Horizon Tripper build linked above is only 3 HP behind your fighter build, and is a whole lot better at doing the thing you want to do.

[TurtlesAWD]

The thing with cleave and whirlwind attack is that they often require having targets in reach to hit in the first place, so in encounters with lower amounts of enemies - or enemies that are more spread out - they don't see a lot of use. With cleave it requires killing your first target to get the attack on the second, as well. If you're going for a Big Heavy Meatshield build with a greatsword, you could look into improved combat action feats like improved bull rush, sunder, trip, etc. In order to improve your combat abilities and control options.

Asking for build advice on the internet can be of varying usefulness because without knowing much of the campaign or how roleplay heavy it is or your character concept, replies will typically vary from fairly vague statements about general consensus regarding feat usefulness all the way up to "drop your entire character concept and play this more theoretically optimized meta-build instead." Being a meat shield is a job you'll more or less accomplish just by being there so if that's the base requirement for what the group needs... have some fun with it. If you're set on whirlwind attacking, you could take it and look for opportunities to get use out of it. You could also experiment with trying to play a charge build, mounted or unmounted... or just take greatsword specialization feats and chop things to pieces. There's an amount of freedom to be had in not being necessary for much more than your hit points and ranger wilderness skills.

[Bluydee]

If you have trouble picturing the spiked chain, imagine this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-jgvz1g7To), but with spikes.

There is also this much better picture to show it than the stupid PHB one.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cw_ag/75468.jpg

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Use the Wildshape Ranger variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger), go Wildshape Ranger 5/ Master of Many Forms 3, turn into a Bladerager Troll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20070705b&page=3) and later a War Troll (MM3). Master of Many Forms is in Complete Adventurer, and note it was affected by the errata (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) to add to your effective Druid level for max HD and duration of Wild Shape. Obligatory Master of Many Forms Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1060931) link. Your ability scores should be Con > Wis > Int > Str 13 > Dex > Cha. You'll use the physical stats of whatever form you take, so your own physical stats won't matter apart from HP and qualifying for Power Attack.

A Human with that build should get Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Multiattack. Your future feats should be Frozen Wild Shape in Frostburn, Robilar's Gambit from PH2, Leap Attack in CV, and Defensive Sweep in PH2. Future levels should be MoMF until its 7th level, then Warshaper 4 from CW, then either one level of Nature's Warrior in CW or one more WSRanger level, and then finish with the rest of MoMF. Frozen Wild Shape will eventually allow you to take the form of a Cryohydra, which makes all of its bites when it makes an attack of opportunity, Robilar's Gambit makes it so you get to make an attack of opportunity whenever someone attacks you, and MoMF 7 will eve get you its Fast Healing. War Troll is probably the best form you can take, especially since MoMF 7 gets you all of its special qualities since they're all extraordinary.

Your items should include a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp from Magic Item Compendium, that adds your Wis bonus to your AC when you're unarmored, and you'll get an unarmed strike equal to a Monk 5 which can be used in any form and can even make iterative attacks. So in Bladerager Troll form you'll get two unarmed strikes at BAB/BAB-5, two claws at BAB-2, and a bite at BAB-2. The claws and bite will be secondary so they'll only add half your Str bonus to damage, but Power Attack will still apply to those in full. Get Armbands of Might in MIC with a Wilding Clasp, and whenever you Power Attack for -2 to hit you'll get +4 damage, but don't take more than a -2 to hit unless you're sure you'll still hit with all your attacks. You should be able to afford all of that at 8th level, and have enough left over for a Wand of Cure Light Wounds to fix yourself after combat. An item with a Wildling Clasp on it continues to function when you wild shape, this includes both magical and mundane functions. One function of a belt is to hold other items, so any items you store on your belt (wands, rods, pearls of power, etc.) won't need a wilding clasp of their own. Cast Endure Elements (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/endureElements.htm) every day from your one bonus Ranger spell slot.

[Jay R]

OK, You've all sold me on the combination of Improved Trip and Guisarme. I'm starting to re-do my Feats.

But you've left me with more questions.


You do not like them.
So you say.
Try them! Try them!
And you may.
Try them and you may I say. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzrHg5GOvXE)

Oh, I agree that a spiked chain is quite effective in the D&D rules. But it can't really work that well. My unwillingness to use it is based on my desire to simulate combat to some degree. If the rules said that a paper bag over your head counted as +2 armor, I'd refuse to use that as well.


More, with Combat Reflexes.

And if they get close, you break out the Armor Spikes.

I'm not sure about Armored Spikes, either. But I'm definitely going to have a mace or other one-handed bludgeoning weapon. (I never adventure without backups that deal other kinds of damage. Sometimes the slash is useless.)


Many of the MM creatures do not have weapons and cannot be disarmed. Overrun only works on creatures 1 size category larger than you or smaller; this will end up being quite a lot of the MM later on.

Makes sense. Thank you.


You don't need to meet the Dex requirement for TWF if you get it from being a Ranger.

Irrelevant. Ulfric's DEX is 16.


Fighter's best used as a dip most of the time in core. There are few good fighter feats, and the dead levels and lack of skill points means you're getting a poor return on investment.

That makes sense. I'm trying to get used to the Feats - but only if they are both fun and valuable.


Minor bonuses to one type of weapon. Want to use the Lance of Longinus you found? No bonus for you! Excalibur? Nope! Mjolnir? Pffft.


Weapon focus/specialization generally isn't to good because they only offer a +1 to attacks and +2 to damage. Neither of those really matter, particularly the accuracy bonus, since your hitting almost all the time anyway. That said, once you have no better options, by all means take them.

It seems like one of you is arguing that they are bad because they aren't really worth using, and the other because you can't use them often enough. I find it intriguing that you have the same conclusion from opposite premises.

In any event, if the guisarme is that good for tripping, I'll always want to have one available, so why not make it better, given that you are also claiming that there are "few good fighter feats" anyway?



In general, weapon damage is inferior to combat options.

A very good point. My D&D / AD&D background hasn't led me to think that way.


If you are going to be a tank to take hits, you don't really need to have dodge/mobility/spring attack, as you generally should only be moving to a better position to protect the casters. Spring attack/whirlwind attack are nice, but dodge/mobility are horrible, and it generally isn't worth two crappy feats to get a alright feat (spring) and a good one (whirlwind)

I was also planning to buy Boots of Striding and Springing, which I thought would make the Mobility and Spring Attack more valuable. Does this not work?


My recommendations are:

lv1 Power attack, combat expertise.
lv2 Improved trip
lv3 Quick draw Improved initiative (+4 to initiative, let's you get in position to protect earlier)
lv5 improved bull rush (get them away from the casters, as a bit of a panic button.)
lv6 anything really
lv7 anything really

OK, the comment about initiative makes sense. You're the first to mention Bull Rush.

Why Quick Draw with a Guisarme? It's always in the hands.


The Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-%28Core-Melee-Build%29)

What book is Horizon Walker from? I don't know if it's available to me, but I can find out.

Also, I can't add a level of Barbarian if the first level wasn't one. How can you have been brought up away from civilization after you have grown up within it? My DM used this example when talking about the aspects of 3.5E he won't allow. And the Ranger level is first because that's when you get the largest chunk of skill points.


The thing with cleave and whirlwind attack is that they often require having targets in reach to hit in the first place, so in encounters with lower amounts of enemies - or enemies that are more spread out - they don't see a lot of use. With cleave it requires killing your first target to get the attack on the second, as well.

Yeah, Great Cleave is primarily for fighting goblin hordes, and I don't expect to see lots of them. But BBEGs often have minions. I thought I wanted Whirlwind attack because it lets me attack (for instance) all three gryphons in the same round, with my best attack bonus.


If you're going for a Big Heavy Meatshield build with a greatsword, you could look into improved combat action feats like improved bull rush, sunder, trip, etc. In order to improve your combat abilities and control options.

You've joined the hordes recommending this. I'm convinced


Asking for build advice on the internet can be of varying usefulness because without knowing much of the campaign or how roleplay heavy it is or your character concept, replies will typically vary from fairly vague statements about general consensus regarding feat usefulness all the way up to "drop your entire character concept and play this more theoretically optimized meta-build instead." Being a meat shield is a job you'll more or less accomplish just by being there so if that's the base requirement for what the group needs... have some fun with it. If you're set on whirlwind attacking, you could take it and look for opportunities to get use out of it. You could also experiment with trying to play a charge build, mounted or unmounted... or just take greatsword specialization feats and chop things to pieces. There's an amount of freedom to be had in not being necessary for much more than your hit points and ranger wilderness skills.

He will be mounted, at least part of the time, and possibly with Horseshoes of Speed. [He's a Ranger; he likes animals.] I've been wondering about the various mounted feats.

I don't know much about the campaign yet; I'm waiting for his background now. My initial character conception was this:

Ulfric was born in a small village. Being stronger and tougher than anyone else, he became a bully. He intimidated others, kicked puppies, and basically did the Viking equivalent of stealing lunch money. But however much stronger he was than any individual, he wasn’t stronger than the village as a whole. They eventually kicked him out, and he went wandering into the wilderness.

He found an older man he tried to bully. Unfortunately, the older man was a high-level Ranger, who put him in his place, instilling the first level of real discipline Ulfric had ever known. The old man taught him the ways of the wilderness, and Ulfric became a Ranger. But the old man died, and so Ulfric wandered on, more disciplined, but with no real goals or aspirations. He happened onto a mercenary unit, and signed on.

So after one level of Ranger, he was trained as a Fighter. His company fought in a few skirmishes, but was eventually defeated. He escaped death only because he had Move Silently and Hide skills, unlike his comrades.

He is now a 1st level Ranger / 6th level Fighter, looking for something worth doing. He has grown to hate bullies, and will always stand up for the little guy. He also very firmly believes that you do not kill an animal except for cause. (Yes, he does hunt.) He thinks hurting animals is worse than bullying people, because they don’t understand it. He might very easily get into trouble when he sees an abused animal or person.


I note now that tripping bullies instead of killing them would appeal to him.

Keep the comments coming. I'm learning a lot.

[Teapot Salty]

You say you always carry a secondary weapon? Quick draw let's you draw it for free, instead of potentially having to take two turns to attack, you can take one. Quick draw is also nice if you happen to be carrying a greatsword as well, so when your backs against a wall and you can't move away, or hit them because of reach, you just wallop them. Also if your caught on your heals it will let you draw your guisarm. Juntao is right and brings up a valid point, you have weapon focus and specializatio (guisarm) and your dm gives you a +1 keen glaive? You get robbed, but like I said, there not so awful that you should never take them, there's plenty of worse feats out there *cough* Toughness *cough*

[Bluydee]

What book is Horizon Walker from? I don't know if it's available to me, but I can find out.

Also, I can't add a level of Barbarian if the first level wasn't one. How can you have been brought up away from civilization after you have grown up within it? My DM used this example when talking about the aspects of 3.5E he won't allow. And the Ranger level is first because that's when you get the largest chunk of skill points.


Horizon Walker is from Dungeon Master's Guide, which your DM should already have.

That logic is stupid, by the way. Perhaps he was forced to live alone in the forests and grew accustomed to his natural ferocity? There are so many reasons he could've gotten a level of barbarian. Your DM needs more imagination if he's going to limit you like that for absolutely no reason.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Also, I can't add a level of Barbarian if the first level wasn't one. How can you have been brought up away from civilization after you have grown up within it? My DM used this example when talking about the aspects of 3.5E he won't allow. And the Ranger level is first because that's when you get the largest chunk of skill points.

The built-in fluff of any given class or other game mechanic is 100% optional, and can always be replaced with custom fluff that better represents why a given individual has access to a given set of class features or other capabilities. Bruce Banner wasn't brought away from civilization to learn how to hulk out. Sticking to the fluff-as-written only displays a lack of creativity and an inability to innovate or adapt. Take a look at this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?329829-The-Black-Stain-Objection#25) (it jumps down to my post) for some good examples of why sticking to the built-in fluff as though it's additional rules is always a bad thing.

[Flickerdart]

Also, I can't add a level of Barbarian if the first level wasn't one. How can you have been brought up away from civilization after you have grown up within it?
Who says you were brought up in civilization as a ranger or fighter? Do tribes not have sorcerers, born with a natural gift? Druids, to serve as shamans? Rogues, to hunt and scout? Bards, to sing tales of the tribe's history and ancestors? Even if your DM insists that a barbarian must always be a savage, all of the other classes work perfectly fine in a tribal setting.

[Jay R]

You will seldom be in a position to use Whirlwind attack to its fullest potential; by the time you get it, you can also just perform a full attack and hit multiple people that way.

But at ever-decreasing effectiveness. The second hit is 25% more likely to miss; the third one is 50%, etc. Against 3 opponents, that's 3/4 hit lost per round. Against four opponents, it's 1 1/2 hits lost per round. Whgirlwind Attack lets you hit them all at your highest BAB.

But only, as you say, when I get a chance to use it.


If you have trouble picturing the spiked chain, imagine this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-jgvz1g7To), but with spikes.

There is also this much better picture to show it than the stupid PHB one.

I have no trouble picturing it. I just don't believe that the device works that well and that consistently. The guy in your picture will eventually hit his ally in his unprotected face. Even if you have absolute control of that spin when you're alone, you don't when it bounces off shield, weapons, enemies, etc. All momentum would be lost as soon as your opponent whacks the side of the chain with his shield or weapon. The D&D weapon is grossly over-powered, and annoys my understanding of weaponry.

I repeat: If it were as good as the rules allow, then it would have taken over the battlefields of Europe.


Use the Wildshape Ranger variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger), go Wildshape Ranger 5/ Master of Many Forms 3, turn into a Bladerager Troll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20070705b&page=3) and later a War Troll (MM3). Master of Many Forms is in Complete Adventurer, and note it was affected by the errata (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) to add to your effective Druid level for max HD and duration of Wild Shape. Obligatory Master of Many Forms Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/1060931) link. Your ability scores should be Con > Wis > Int > Str 13 > Dex > Cha. You'll use the physical stats of whatever form you take, so your own physical stats won't matter apart from HP and qualifying for Power Attack.

That's an 8th level build, using books I don't own and I don't know if I can use. In any case, my job is to be the muscle right now, at 7th level.

A character can't change into things he hasn't seen, so I suspect he won't be able to be a troll of any sort. He's been roaming around the northern wilderness, so a grizzly or polar bear should be possible.


You say you always carry a secondary weapon? Quick draw let's you draw it for free, instead of potentially having to take two turns to attack, you can take one. Quick draw is also nice if you happen to be carrying a greatsword as well, so when your backs against a wall and you can't move away, or hit them because of reach, you just wallop them. Also if your caught on your heals it will let you draw your guisarm.

Good points. Sold.


Juntao is right and brings up a valid point, you have weapon focus and specializatio (guisarm) and your dm gives you a +1 keen glaive? You get robbed, but like I said, there not so awful that you should never take them, there's plenty of worse feats out there *cough* Toughness *cough*

Actually, I'll start with a magic guisarme, and I'll still want to trip, so it won't be completely displaced, but this is a good point.

Which reminds me: which is better - a +2 guisarme, or a +1 keen guisarme? The +2 gives me an additional hit every 20 attacks, but the +1 Keen gives me a better shot at triple damage. When I was getting a greatsword, it was easier, since the greatsword has a greater threat range (19-20)


Horizon Walker is from Dungeon Master's Guide, which your DM should already have.

My DMG doesn't list it - just Witch, Arcane Archer, Assassin, Blackguard, Dwarven Defender, Loremaster, Shadow Dancer, and the NPC classes.


That logic is stupid, by the way. Perhaps he was forced to live alone in the forests and grew accustomed to his natural ferocity? There are so many reasons he could've gotten a level of barbarian. Your DM needs more imagination if he's going to limit you like that for absolutely no reason.

First of all, you can't complain that the logic is stupid and then claim he's doing it for no reason. He has a reason; you just don't like it.

Secondly, I agree with him completely. The Barbarian should be a savage who is out of place in civilization. I can see one eventually learning civilized ways - a Barbarian becoming a Ranger or Fighter. But the idea of a Ranger or Fighter losing the trappings of civilization while retaining all the plusses that come from them seems inconsistent.

In any event, regardless of the DM's stance, I don't have any interest in playing somebody who did so.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That's an 8th level build, using books I don't own and I don't know if I can use. In any case, my job is to be the muscle right now, at 7th level.

A character can't change into things he hasn't seen, so I suspect he won't be able to be a troll of any sort. He's been roaming around the northern wilderness, so a grizzly or polar bear should be possible.

Even at 7th level that build can turn into a Bladerager Troll. That's Str 28, Dex 16, Con 28, +5 natural armor, pounce, two claws, a bite, and rend, there will be no shortage of muscle in the party with that.

It doesn't say anywhere that you must have seen or interacted with a given creature to take its form, only that you be familiar with it. Proving your character is familiar with a given creature is a DC 10 + HD knowledge check (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm), and you only need to succeed in that check once to take that creature's form.

Type dndtools into google if you're lacking a given book.

[Jay R]

Since the question has been opened, does anybody have any thoughts on how many levels of Ranger my Ranger / Fighter should have?

I'm not talking about making him some other sort of character. He is not a shapechanger, barbarian, bard, cleric, druid, monk, paladin, rogue, sorceror, or wizard. I'll consider a Ranger / Fighter prestige class that keeps him mostly a Ranger / Fighter. I'm seriously considering the suggested Horizon Walker.

And I've just realized that my DMG is 3.0. I may try to find a 3.5 one in a used book store.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm learning a lot, even from the ones I'm not going to take.

[torrasque666]

Don't let them get you down Jay. I agree with your/your DM's stance on fluff and were I to run a game would have a similar stance. Too often have I heard when asking for advice with an idea the "Make a Wizard and pretend" bit. And if you really NEED a book, looking on the internet can help you get one for free(yar har fiddly dee) I can even point you in proper directions. And I agree with your limitation that a character must have seen/interacted with a creature to shift into it. After all, can legends, tales, folklore, or books properly convey how a mystical creature acts and is? Not really. They can give a rough idea but not do it properly in my opinion and certainly not enough to be "familiar with it."

As for how many levels, my opinion is probably even, at least until you want to start prestiging out.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You can find most of the content from the DMG, PHB, MM, XPH, ELH, Deities and Demigods, and UA at the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm), including the 3.5 Horizon Walker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/horizonWalker.htm).

If you can use Dragon magazine content, the Strong-Arm fighting style for Ranger gives Power Attack, Improved Sunder, and Great Cleave at 2nd, 6th, and 11th. Most Ranger prestige classes require Endurance, so three Ranger levels and two Fighter levels is typically preferable. Deepwarden (http://dndtools.eu/classes/deepwarden/) is a great choice if you go with any sort of Dwarf race, especially something like Earth Dwarf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfEarth) from UA.

[juicycaboose]

My DMG doesn't list it - just Witch, Arcane Archer, Assassin, Blackguard, Dwarven Defender, Loremaster, Shadow Dancer, and the NPC classes.



Page 189 of the 3.5 DMG has the Horizon Walker



Since the question has been opened, does anybody have any thoughts on how many levels of Ranger my Ranger / Fighter should have?


If you plan on taking Horizon Walker (which you can take after level 5) and are set on not having a barbarian level I'd say Ranger 3/Fighter 2 would be good. Make sure your first level is as a ranger, the extra 16 skill points is worth more than the 2 hit points.

edit:

Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Horizon Walker 2

Feats:
1: Combat Expertise
3: Improved Trip
Fighter 1: Combat Reflexes
Fighter 2: Power Attack
6: Improved Initiative/whatever you want really


edit2: also if you're stuck with the default ranger fighting styles then remember that you can use Two Weapon Fighting with your guisarme and armor spikes!

[Teapot Salty]

Keen is better. The slight bonus to attack/damage is alright, but criting for lots, a fair bit is really nice.

Ranger 5/fighter 2 is good. It nets you spellcasting, an animal companion and two favored enemy's, as well as not taking any dead levels from fighter. As a general rule of thumb, don't go an odd number of levels in fighter, except for 1. Fighter 2 nets you two bonus feats, a and better fortitude save. You also either get free two weapon fighting/rapid shot from ranger. My two cents would be to use a composite longbow at long range if you taking quick draw, letting you be deadly at any distance. That said, if you don't like the fluff of using a bow or long range weapons, DON'T. I personally love the whole "hit them hard at long range and then smack them at close range" but it's up to you. Although feats for the build (the only feat that you need to be rather effective at long range is free)

lv1 Power attack, combat expertise (human)
lv2 Rapid shot (ranger)
lv3 Improved trip, endurance (ranger)
lv6 Quick draw, improved bull rush (fighter)
lv7 At this point, you have everything you need to be an effective meat shield/switch hitter. This feat is very optional.

It's a nifty little build.

[Svata]

Also, I can't add a level of Barbarian if the first level wasn't one. How can you have been brought up away from civilization after you have grown up within it?

Simple, he grew up within civilization, but learned to give in to the rage he always felt while he battled, learning that it made his enemies cower, and fall all that much easier.

[Juntao112]

It seems like one of you is arguing that they are bad because they aren't really worth using, and the other because you can't use them often enough. I find it intriguing that you have the same conclusion from opposite premises.
I mentioned that they were bad and you can't use them often enough.


In any event, if the guisarme is that good for tripping, I'll always want to have one available, so why not make it better, given that you are also claiming that there are "few good fighter feats" anyway?

Because the weapon shop might be out of guisarmes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0136.html)


Also, I can't add a level of Barbarian if the first level wasn't one. How can you have been brought up away from civilization after you have grown up within it?

Well, how do you feel about the Hao Han (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5448.msg78308#msg78308?)?

[Runeclaw]

Since the question has been opened, does anybody have any thoughts on how many levels of Ranger my Ranger / Fighter should have?

I'd say an Nth level Ranger/Fighter should have at least (N-2) levels of Ranger.

Which is to say, no more than 2 levels of fighter.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html

[Person_Man]

This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?127026-3-X-Person-Man-s-Guide-to-Melee-Combos) might be helpful to you, since it summarizes a lot of melee combat related advice, and links to many similar threads which will help you optimize various combos.

"Keeping the enemy off the spellcasters and absorbing the physical damage." is generally referred to as "battlefield control" and "tanking" on most D&D forums. The most powerful methods of doing so generally involve magic, psionics, or supernatural abilities, and not "mundane" melee oriented builds (Ranger, Fighter, Barbarian, etc). If you're willing to use these, consider Druid, Cleric, Psychic Warrior, Totemist, Incarnate, Binder, Wildshape Ranger, Wizard, or Sorcerer builds. The last two might have you scratching your head, because they have poor BAB, armor, and hit points. But with proper spell selection and a high Constitution score, any full caster with a non-restricted list (Healer, Wu Jen) is going to be more effective at battlefield control and tanking then any non-full caster.

If you prefer a non-magic/psionics/supernatural class for other reasons, then you may wish to consider Crusader, Warblade, Knight, or Something 5/Prestige Class 3 (lots of options here, depending on what books you have available).

If you want a non-psionic (like Psychic Warrior), non-supernatural (like Wildshape Ranger), core or core-ish only option for battlefield and tanking, consider a strait Halfling Paladin. (If you're in the Forgotten Realms, a strongheart halfling gets a Bonus Feat like a human). Ride a medium sized Special Mount, which can go anywhere your medium allies can go without penalty. The Special Mount grants you a huge movement bonus, it's a second bag of hit points for your enemies to target in place of you, and you can "Share Spells" with it, which greatly improves your tanking abilities. Buy wands for Paladin spells you like a lot, like Protection from Evil, Holy Sword, Cure Light Wounds, and Shield Other. (There are a lot of other great Paladin spell options in various supplements as well). You have a couple of mildly useful immunities and your Saving Throws should be very high, which will help with your tanking tremendously. Ask your DM for permission to use the Leadership Feat to get a superior Special Mount (like a medium sized dragon), which is an option that is directly supported in the Dungeon Master's Guide. Use a lance as your primary weapon, which can be used as a two handed weapon while mounted. If an enemy is more then 5 feet away, charge for double damage. If your enemy is 10 feet away and tries to move closer, you can take an attack of opportunity against them. If an enemy is adjacent to you, have your Special Mount attack them, then take a 5 ft step backwards, then make a full attack with your lance. Beyond Leadership, other solid feat options include Mounted Combat->Ride By Attack-> Spirited Charge + Power Attack or Combat Reflexes->Combat Expertise->Improved Trip->Knock-Down. Remember that a lance can still be used two handed while mounted, and you can buy an Animated Shield.

[Demidos]

Alternately, several feats increase your reach with weapons (Though they would likely involve being very tall (deformity feats) or abberant (abberant, elder evils feats)). That and improved reflexes could give you up to 25 foot reach with that glaive with multiple AOOs, which would be quite intimidating.

If you are going with the combat maneuvers, note that Jotunbrud is a lovely feat -- a free +4 to all combat maneuver feats. Other forms of powerful build (half-giant, goliath) also function if you're willing to take some LA.

[Gullintanni]

First of all, you can't complain that the logic is stupid and then claim he's doing it for no reason. He has a reason; you just don't like it.

Secondly, I agree with him completely. The Barbarian should be a savage who is out of place in civilization. I can see one eventually learning civilized ways - a Barbarian becoming a Ranger or Fighter. But the idea of a Ranger or Fighter losing the trappings of civilization while retaining all the plusses that come from them seems inconsistent.

In any event, regardless of the DM's stance, I don't have any interest in playing somebody who did so.

The logic IS stupid. Not because the DM is wrong, but because his take on savagery precludes the presence of savage warriors within civilized society. Take for example the Norse men of the 10th century. They, like many in the world, made cunning use of tactics. They were skilled, and disciplined warriors, traders, craftsman, and their society was one of the most politically progressive of their time. And yet, their warriors are legendary for the berserkergang, described as an "uncontrollable trance like fury".

A berserker growing in Norse society, modelled in 3.5 D&D would almost certainly have levels of Fighter, from their regimented training within their respective armies, and levels in Barbarian, as befits the rage of a berserker.

Similarly, a once fighter who had left his home to take up a life hunting in the woods, could easily take levels of Barbarian...all you need to add to his backstory is a problem controlling his temper.
There's more than one way to throw a little savagery into the mix.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here is a PHB + SRD Horizon Tripper at level 5. You should take a look at this:

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=55074

[Jay R]

Don't let them get you down Jay.

No worries. People can't get me down when they're trying to help me, even when offering help I won't use.

All of you talking about becoming barbaric when already civilized: Feel free to continue doing so. As I already said, I won't do it, but that's no reason for you not to enjoy the discussion. And I am learning from it.


As for how many levels, my opinion is probably even, at least until you want to start prestiging out.

Thank you. If the DM allows it, I'm pretty sure I'll go Ranger 3/Fighter 2/ Horizon Walker 2.

Biffonacius_ Furiou: Do you know which issue of the Dragon had the Strong-Arm Fighting? That sounds useful.

juicycaboose: Nice list of Feats. Thanks!

But I'll probably take Rapid Fire over Two-Weapon Fighting. He was a mercenary; he certainly has a way to damage the enemy from a distance. He also lives in the wilderness, and the bow is the best hunting weapon.

Teapot Salty: Yes, he will certainly have a bow. I can't imagine somebody living alone in the wilderness without a range weapon.

Nice list of Feats. If I wind up just Ranger / Fighter, that's probably what I'll do - with the probably addition of Leadership.


Well, how do you feel about the Hao Han (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5448.msg78308#msg78308?)?

Mostly that it doesn't go well with a northerner named "Ulfric". But thanks for showing it to me.


I'd say an Nth level Ranger/Fighter should have at least (N-2) levels of Ranger.

Which is to say, no more than 2 levels of fighter.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html

Yes, a lot of people seem to being telling me "fighter level 3 is dumb level. Thog not take."

Person_Man: Thank you. That's a lot of solid information, and more for me to go ferret out.


Alternately, several feats increase your reach with weapons (Though they would likely involve being very tall (deformity feats) or abberant (abberant, elder evils feats)). That and improved reflexes could give you up to 25 foot reach with that glaive with multiple AOOs, which would be quite intimidating.

If you are going with the combat maneuvers, note that Jotunbrud is a lovely feat -- a free +4 to all combat maneuver feats. Other forms of powerful build (half-giant, goliath) also function if you're willing to take some LA.

I have no idea if such giant races exist, or if I would be allowed to claim descent. I'll ask. I don't think that there are any Feats that increase reach for a human.

I will certainly have Combat Reflexes.

Gavinfoxx: Thanks for the link, but this is a Whirling Frenzy, not a Horizon Walker. You can't have a Horizon Walker before level 6, because it requires 8 ranks of Knowledge (geography).

I repeat: All of you talking about becoming barbaric when already civilized: Feel free to continue doing so. As I already said, I won't do it, but that's no reason for you not to enjoy the discussion. And I am learning from it.

Please keep the comments coming. I'm learning a lot about the game, totally apart from my interest in developing this character.

[Juntao112]

Mostly that it doesn't go well with a northerner named "Ulfric". But thanks for showing it to me.


The joke is that, despite having nothing to do with Chinese martial arts, a Barbarian does fit many classical wushu heroes even better than the Monk does. Ironic, considering that the Monk was the kung-fu class for 3rd edition.

Naturally, a hao han doesn't fit with a scandanavian named Ulfric. That would be more in line with, say, the Viking archetype? Norse berserkers and all that?

[Gavinfoxx]

What does Barbarian have to do with uncivilized? Sherlock Holmes uses a Whirling Frenzy (along with a host of Barbarian unarmed ACF's) here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGCMfprPJoA

And he's... mostly civilized, though an ass. Really, Barbarian is a collection of useful combat abilities, nothing else.


See this thread where I talk about how to stat up that Sherlock from the movie, using lots of Barbarian, mostly using Gestalt though:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279143-So-I-m-making-a-Sherlock-Holmes-%282009-movie%29-style-unarmed-fighter


And what I did was a horizon tripper, IE, a fan-named, planned build that as of level 5 has no levels in 'Horizon Walker', but will get one at level 6. Make sense?

[torrasque666]

What does Barbarian have to do with uncivilized?

Well primarily the fact that THEY CAN'T READ and are one of the only two who can't. Also, they are pretty well fluffed out as being from uncivilized lands.
Barbarians come from uncivilized lands or from barbaric tribes on the outskirts of civilization.
But then again that's part of that fluff thing that so many people don't care about.



And he's... mostly civilized, though an ass. Really, Barbarian is a collection of useful combat abilities, nothing else.


And that is your take on fluff and classes. Not Jay's as he has mentioned repeatedly. And I have to agree. If fluff wasn't intended for a purpose, as a way to help define who takes this class, they wouldn't have included it. It is there for a reason and in my opinion shouldn't be so lightly disregarded. Disregarding "fluff" just so you can make better use of a mechanic is just.... wrong in my opinion. But we're all entitled to our own aren't we?

[Gavinfoxx]

There's also the fact that WotC is plain incompetent at writing fluff. Really.

They are really, really, really bad at it. And you should be ashamed for using most of their fluff...

[Juntao112]

Well primarily the fact that THEY CAN'T READ and are one of the only two who can't.
Sir, is it your assertion that the illiterate are uncivilized?

Need I remind you that quite a few historical monarchs (http://www.allempires.com/Forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21013) could neither read nor write?


Also, they are pretty well fluffed out as being from uncivilized lands.
But then again that's part of that fluff thing that so many people don't care about.
Are you saying that, if we were playing a game set in the Song dynasty, I could not play an uncouth prison guard with a penchant for violence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Kui_(Water_Margin))?


And that is your take on fluff and classes. Not Jay's as he has mentioned repeatedly. And I have to agree. If fluff wasn't intended for a purpose, as a way to help define who takes this class, they wouldn't have included it. It is there for a reason and in my opinion shouldn't be so lightly disregarded. Disregarding "fluff" just so you can make better use of a mechanic is just.... wrong in my opinion. But we're all entitled to our own aren't we?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-TFyp57r1j5w/UUfTjhGKGPI/AAAAAAAAAUg/P7GtlGzogWg/s1600/choose-1-red-pill-or-blue-pill.jpg

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Well primarily the fact that THEY CAN'T READ and are one of the only two who can't. Also, they are pretty well fluffed out as being from uncivilized lands.
But then again that's part of that fluff thing that so many people don't care about.

If you start as a Barbarian, you can't read. If you start as (nearly) any other class in the game, then you can read just as well as anyone else. Multiclassing into Barbarian does not remove your ability to read and write.

[torrasque666]

Sir, is it your assertion that the illiterate are uncivilized?

Need I remind you that quite a few historical monarchs (http://www.allempires.com/Forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21013) could neither read nor write?
In a game where even a commoner knows how to read and write, and it takes a specific ability to not be literate, yes.



Are you saying that, if we were playing a game set in the Song dynasty, I could not play an uncouth prison guard with a penchant for violence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Kui_(Water_Margin))?

Absolutely not. But like I said earlier, that is your prerogative.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-TFyp57r1j5w/UUfTjhGKGPI/AAAAAAAAAUg/P7GtlGzogWg/s1600/choose-1-red-pill-or-blue-pill.jpg
Mock me if you wish, you come off as no better. As I mentioned, I don't disregard fluff because I see it as a partner to mechanics, not something to be thrown away simply because it doesn't fit your tastes.

There's also the fact that WotC is plain incompetent at writing fluff. Really.

They are really, really, really bad at it. And you should be ashamed for using most of their fluff...
While I'll admit that their fluff doesn't always match up well with the mechanics they intended, in my opinion they wrote the barbarian's pretty well. Fits the name of the class and the fact that they get their abilities from an innate factor rather than training like a Paladin or a Fighter. Also, the fact that they are all about going into a rage and shrugging off everything, as well as the fact that they focus solely around brute force in the usually worshiped gods as well as their role in combat, fits well with the uncivilized bit.

[Juntao112]

In a game where even a commoner knows how to read and write, and it takes a specific ability to not be literate, yes.
Or the barbarian can purchase literacy with his skill points.


Absolutely not. But like I said earlier, that is your prerogative.

So here's the interesting question: why not?


Mock me if you wish, you come off as no better. As I mentioned, I don't disregard fluff because I see it as a partner to mechanics, not something to be thrown away simply because it doesn't fit your tastes.


Would you kindly help me understand the Barbarian's illiteracy from a fluff perspective?

I notice the ability is worded as follows:

Barbarians are the only characters who do not automatically know how to read and write. A barbarian may spend 2 skill points to gain the ability to read and write all languages he is able to speak.

A barbarian who gains a level in any other class automatically gains literacy. Any other character who gains a barbarian level does not lose the literacy he or she already had.

Praytell, how does one come to take levels in the Barbarian class from another class?

[torrasque666]

Why not? Because to me they were intended as part of the class just as much as the mechanics. Even in the new editions they still include a section about what this class is and what it does, providing background on it. If they didn't care about fluff why would they bother? Those pages cost ink and paper to print and they would save money by not doing so. From a business perspective if fluff is irrelevant then it wouldn't be printed.

As for its illiteracy from a fluff perspective, going off of the background section I mentioned earlier, an uncivilized person from the northlands where no one knows how to read(because they are Barbarians) isn't going to know how to read unless he seeks out teaching, represented by the spending of the skill points.

Taking it from another class? You've tapped into that deeper rage that frightens and terrifies your quarry. Much like you are inspiring me to do now. Maybe I'll take a level and go to D&D Player 2/Barbarian 1.

[Juntao112]

Why not? Because to me they were intended as part of the class just as much as the mechanics. Even in the new editions they still include a section about what this class is and what it does, providing background on it. If they didn't care about fluff why would they bother? Those pages cost ink and paper to print and they would save money by not doing so. From a business perspective if fluff is irrelevant then it wouldn't be printed.
From a business perspective, if it helps to sell the product, it goes in. And the fluff certainly makes the product more appealing than table of numbers.


As for its illiteracy from a fluff perspective, going off of the background section I mentioned earlier, an uncivilized person from the northlands where no one knows how to read(because they are Barbarians) isn't going to know how to read unless he seeks out teaching, represented by the spending of the skill points.
But that's was not the question: I asked you to help me understand the Barbarian's illiteracy in the context of other classes being able to multiclass into barbarian, which seems to have been an area of dispute.


Taking it from another class? You've tapped into that deeper rage that frightens and terrifies your quarry. Much like you are inspiring me to do now. Maybe I'll take a level and go to D&D Player 2/Barbarian 1.
So... what exactly was the objection to a Ranger/Fighter taking a level of Barbarian again?

Thinking back on it, I'm not even sure why we're arguing against each other. We clearly both agree that there is nothing wrong with multiclassing into Barbarian.

[torrasque666]

No I don't think its wrong. However, Jay, the guy who we are supposed to be helping, has stated that he doesn't want to as it doesn't fit into HIS fluff. And I'm just trying to defend it from the "well just ignore fluff" viewpoint that seems to be prevalent.

[Juntao112]

No I don't think its wrong. However, Jay, the guy who we are supposed to be helping, has stated that he doesn't want to as it doesn't fit into HIS fluff.
Jay strikes me as a reasonable individual who is only seeking to learn more about the game. I am sure he would be interested in knowing the PHB supports multiclassing into the Barbarian class.


Also I hate people who just dip into classes because that feels to me like trying to be the kid in the candy store and just grab a little bit of everything that they likes.
You're a mean one, Mr. Grinch.

[torrasque666]

Jay strikes me as a reasonable individual who is only seeking to learn more about the game. I am sure he would be interested in knowing the PHB supports multiclassing into the Barbarian class.

I'm sure he would be, but he has already stated his opinion on Barbarians and that he doesn't want it in his build.

[Juntao112]

I'm sure he would be, but he has already stated his opinion on Barbarians and that he doesn't want it in his build.

My understanding is that opinions come from facts, and new facts may change one's opinions.

[GameSpawn]

Keen is better. The slight bonus to attack/damage is alright, but criting for lots, a fair bit is really nice.

Actually, it's a little more complicated:

Because the +2 weapon actually increases your damage some, the math is a little bit involved.

Relative to a +1 weapon:

The +2 weapon will do
+1 hit 5% of the time.
+1 damage every time you hit.

The keen weapon will do:
+2 hits [hit chance] * 5% of the time

If you deal 2d4 + 7 (20 Str.) + 1 (enhancement) = 13 damage on average per attack with a +1 weapon, you get the following:

+2 Weapon:
14 damage * (hit chance + 5)% + 28 damage * 5% on average
(normal damage * chance of hitting + extra critical damage * chance of critical)

+1 Keen Weapon:
13 damage * (hit chance)% + 26 damage * 10% on average
(same formula)

From which we can calculate a 50% hit chance (with a +1 weapon) will cause you to do equal damage (9.1) with both, on average. If your chance of hitting is less than 50%, you will do more damage, on average, with a keen weapon, and if it is greater than 50% you will do more with a +2 weapon.*

On the other hand, if you deal 2d4 + 7 (20 Str.) + 1 (enhancement) + 14 (full power attack with 7 BAB) = 27 damage on average per attack, you get the following:

+2 Weapon:
28 damage * (hit chance + 5)% + 56 * 5% damage on average

+1 Keen Weapon:
27 damage * (hit chance)% + 54 * 10% damage on average

From these equations we can calculate that you will do more damage on average with a keen weapon regardless of your hit chance (the equations solve to hit chance < 120% means keen is better).*


EDIT: TL;DR, which one is better depends a little bit on how much damage you're dealing. EDIT 3: If you average 21 or more damage per attack, you will be better off with keen regardless (so long as you hit at least 10% of the time).

EDIT 2: Also note that this analysis works under the assumption that every point of damage you deal will be effective. The fewer hit points your individual opponents have, the less accurately my equations will model your effective damage output.


*Note: these calculations assume you always have at least a 10% chance of hitting. If you don't, the +2 weapon is unarguably better, as the keen weapon will grant no benefit.

[Jay R]

Jay strikes me as a reasonable individual who is only seeking to learn more about the game. I am sure he would be interested in knowing the PHB supports multiclassing into the Barbarian class.

Oh, I know that. When I first referred to becoming a barbarian after other classes, I called it one of "the aspects of 3.5E" that my DM and I disagree with. I feel the same way about spiked chains. So no new facts have been presented.


There's also the fact that WotC is plain incompetent at writing fluff. Really.

Completely irrelevant, since this aspect of the fluff is a holdover from AD&D, written by TSR.

Furthermore, my idea of a barbarian character is that he comes from a background he grew up in.

This character will not be a barbarian.

For similar reasons, no fighter / paladin / ranger of mine will ever take a level of a primary (non-sorceror) spellcaster, since I consider them to have spent years of study to get to first level. I agree completely with Vaarsuvius, and think that Elan's discussion of it makes clear how silly it is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html). [I admit of one possible exception. Medieval soldiers often retired to the church after they could no longer go on campaign, and I could see doing that - but he would no longer go on campaign. But an old-school D&D Lord who retired and built a cathedral instead of a keep makes sense to me.]

Feel free to keep discussing becoming a barbarian without being born to it, but leave me out of the discussion. My position is clear.

[GameSpawn]

Oh, one other point (unrelated to my first). If the only reason you're limited on source material is cost, you might check out some of the feats freely available in the SRD. Two particular ones that might be useful to your build are Knock-Down (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Knock-Down) and Stand Still (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Stand_Still).

[Sir Chuckles]

On the subject of fluff, it is not married to mechanics. As for Barbarian being an outlandish primal warrior?
Well, Urban Brawler, Skilled City Dweller*, and Urban Barbarian all say Hi.
It's not that you outright ignore fluff, it's that you should never limit your choices because the picture for the Fighter in the PHB is wearing fullplate. A Fighter can make an excellent archer or mustachio'd duelist.

*Krusk, the very Barbarian shown in the PHB, doesn't always have to be a savage:
http://i.imgur.com/S8XqG.jpg

This is no longer about your character being a Barbarian, it's about showing you the path toward better roleplay and character building.
D&D does not have to be psuedo-European, a Monk can be a skilled boxer instead of a Shaolin, a Rogue makes for an excellent mogul, and Rangers can live in cities.

Aside from that, you don't need Barbarian in your build. Take whatever you read here not as "This is what everyone here does", but instead remembering that there is Theoretical Optimization and there is the Practical Optimization. TO and PO. It's like asking a friend for help with your math homework. Yes, he has the answer and he could give you his paper to copy. No, he won't, because it's better to show you how to do it and how he came to the final conclusion.

[Juntao112]

For similar reasons, no fighter / paladin / ranger of mine will ever take a level of a primary (non-sorceror) spellcaster, since I consider them to have spent years of study to get to first level. I agree completely with Vaarsuvius, and think that Elan's discussion of it makes clear how silly it is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html).

One of the interesting things about graduate school is that you are not only expected to learn material in your chosen field of study, but you are also expected to learn how to learn.

I have seen a physical chemist build a custom control panel for a laser spectrometer. I have seen materials science students learn inorganic chemistry so they could design better alloys. A sufficiently motivated and intelligent mind is capable of anything.

[Gullintanni]

No one is suggesting that fluff and class mechanics shouldn't go hand is hand -- what everyone here IS saying is that there's more than one way to satisfy the fluff requirements of a given class without it being 'gamey'.

Someone who spent a good portion of his past in the woods, then migrates to a city, educates himself and learns as a soldier, still has that wild past in his background. After a traumatic event, perhaps the death of a close travelling companion, this particular adventurer loses himself occasionally in fits of rage. Over time, the adventurer masters his anger, and learns to channel it productively while in combat. He takes a level of Barbarian at his next level.

As for primary spellcasters...Sorcerer's require no study or training. A new Sorcerer's powers simply manifested later in life. It's a waste of roleplaying opportunities to confine yourself to the strictest possible reading of fluff. It's certainly important material, as it informs the player what the spirit of the class ought to be, but it's not intended as a strait-jacket. Unless you're a paladin. That said, if you're playing a character who's never lived outside of a city, and who's lived under a strict martial code of conduct, and practices meditation, then yeah I agree, Barbarian probably doesn't gel with your character concept. :smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

That said, if you're playing a character who's never lived outside of a city, and who's lived under a strict martial code of conduct, and practices meditation, then yeah I agree, Barbarian probably doesn't gel with your character concept. :smalltongue:
A character who lives in society and yet suffers from bursts of uncontrollable rage would do everything he can - including devotion to a strict code, and meditation - to get his anger under control, because it would be unseemly and dangerous to let it run free.

Also don't forget that barbarians have a lot of ACFs, many of which give up Rage for something completely unrelated to being angry.

[Gullintanni]

A character who lives in society and yet suffers from bursts of uncontrollable rage would do everything he can - including devotion to a strict code, and meditation - to get his anger under control, because it would be unseemly and dangerous to let it run free.

Also don't forget that barbarians have a lot of ACFs, many of which give up Rage for something completely unrelated to being angry.

I don't disagree with any of the above. Though, in my view, a Barbarian is a character who already HAS his anger under control -- Moreso than any other class in the game really. He's got it down to the point where he can call it and end it at will for some nice benefits in combat, and unlike the Frenzied Berserker, he's not forced to attack until everything around him is dead. Barbarians offer precise bursts of surgically explosive rage :smallbiggrin:

[Jay R]

Oh, one other point (unrelated to my first). If the only reason you're limited on source material is cost, you might check out some of the feats freely available in the SRD. Two particular ones that might be useful to your build are Knock-Down (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Knock-Down) and Stand Still (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Stand_Still).

Love the Knock-Down Feat. And because I add 1 1/2 times my STR bonus to damage, it would always come into play. Do you happen to know what book it was published in?

Also, I get an Attack of Opportunity when somebody leaves a square I threaten. Does that include somebody who moves closer to me when I have a guisarme? Does it include somebody who moves into and out of my threat range in a single move, by coming in close to me?

Reminder for the people having fun discussing playing barbarians in ways I don't enjoy: Have fun with your discussion. But I still won't play in ways I don't enjoy.

[Flickerdart]

Love the Knock-Down Feat. And because I add 1 1/2 times my STR bonus to damage, it would always come into play. Do you happen to know what book it was published in?
It was published in Deities & Demigods and in Sword and Fist (which is a 3.0 book). The two versions are identical, though.



Also, I get an Attack of Opportunity when somebody leaves a square I threaten. Does that include somebody who moves closer to me when I have a guisarme? Does it include somebody who moves into and out of my threat range in a single move, by coming in close to me?

Yes, if someone was moving towards you until they were next to you (regardless of whether they started within the reach of your guisarme or not) then they would have to leave a square you threaten in order to complete that movement. It is not possible to pass through a square without entering and then leaving it, barring teleportation.

[Gavinfoxx]

Look closely at the back of the DMG for the area that a character with reach and who is large (like under the effects of enlarge person) threatens. Note that whenever someone goes OUT of that area, they provoke.

Then take a very, very close look at the build for that character I made earlier, and note the gear. Guisarme, Armor Spikes (for threatening close in), potions of enlarge person, note the improved trip, combat reflexes, and knockdown.

[Teapot Salty]

Refresh my memory, can you trip as an attack of opportunity?

[Gavinfoxx]

Yes, yes you can!

[Regissoma]

This was mentioned earlier, but this site http://dndtools.eu/ is good for finding things if you don't have the books. Also I second the idea of being a palidin if you want to anyways. Otherwise, I would like to give you this link: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items

[Jay R]

I'm playing with the character tomorrow evening, so this will probably be the last question.

I have the following Feats for him already: Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Rapid Shot, Endurance, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Leadership, Hills Terrain Mastery, and Forest Terrain Mastery.

I have one slot left, and I've narrowed it down to Quick Draw, Knock Down, or Improved Initiative.

The DM recommended Improved Initiative, since it effects every round. But it also resets every round. By the end of the round, I've had exactly as many attacks as I would have otherwise.

Quick Draw lets me draw his longsword if somebody gets too close, without losing time. (I don't like the idea of armor spikes as a weapon.)

Recommendations?

[Juntao112]

Improved Initiative. He who goes first is better able to dictate the terms of battle - especially important if you plan on tanking rather than just dishing out damage.

[juicycaboose]

I'd go with Knockdown personally, that or Improved Initiative, I'd say both are more important than Quick Draw.

[Gavinfoxx]

FYI, the actual rules say that you roll initiative at the beginning of a fight, and only if the circumstances dramatically change in the fight -- after that, you keep the initiative. Rolling each round is a variant.

[Jay R]

FYI, the actual rules say that you roll initiative at the beginning of a fight, and only if the circumstances dramatically change in the fight -- after that, you keep the initiative. Rolling each round is a variant.

I know, but that still means that by the end of the round, we've each had one turn.

Bear in mind I'm fighting with a guisarme. The purpose of Quick Draw would be to be able to fight immediately after they get inside my threat range.

[Juntao112]

What's wrong with taking a 5ft step back?

[Jay R]

What's wrong with taking a 5ft step back?

If they aren't idiots, there are enemies on each side.

[Juntao112]

If they aren't idiots, there are enemies on each side.

Do you anticipate being surrounded often and easily?

[Jay R]

Do you anticipate being surrounded often and easily?

"Often and easily"? No, not at all. But if I haven't planned for it, once is all that's needed for the character to die.

[Bluydee]

You could always just take the urban barbarian variants (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) and the ones from cityscape, take Whirling Frenzy, and now you have an man who grew up in the city but was too poor to get education and read.

[Renen]

In a game where even a commoner knows how to read and write, and it takes a specific ability to not be literate, yes.


Absolutely not. But like I said earlier, that is your prerogative.


Mock me if you wish, you come off as no better. As I mentioned, I don't disregard fluff because I see it as a partner to mechanics, not something to be thrown away simply because it doesn't fit your tastes.

While I'll admit that their fluff doesn't always match up well with the mechanics they intended, in my opinion they wrote the barbarian's pretty well. Fits the name of the class and the fact that they get their abilities from an innate factor rather than training like a Paladin or a Fighter. Also, the fact that they are all about going into a rage and shrugging off everything, as well as the fact that they focus solely around brute force in the usually worshiped gods as well as their role in combat, fits well with the uncivilized bit.

Man... some people looooove thwir WotC fluff.
Because of said fluff, so many people hate psions because with that fluff they are too "Sci-Fi"
Same fluff also makes Truenamer look useful.
Same fluff makes Pelor into Pelor the burning hate.

Seriously, I disregard fluff like 99% of the time, because its so bad.

And then we have poor misguided people like OP, who try to stick to realistic weapons while a wizard is busy altering reality, and claiming that he will never have a character that has fighter and wizard levels, while a class like Abjurant Champion exists (basically a wizard/warrior)

[Gavinfoxx]

I know, but that still means that by the end of the round, we've each had one turn.

Bear in mind I'm fighting with a guisarme. The purpose of Quick Draw would be to be able to fight immediately after they get inside my threat range.

What's wrong with using armor spikes or a guantlet or a spiked gauntlet?? Keep on holding or wielding the guisarme, you can still attack with armor spikes.

[Renen]

Maybe the amor spikes werent a thing in medieval europe?

[Juntao112]

Maybe the amor spikes werent a thing in medieval europe?

Unlike dragons, Wizards, Shaolin Monks, Gods, oozes, and drow.


"Often and easily"? No, not at all. But if I haven't planned for it, once is all that's needed for the character to die.

A lot of "preppers" amuse me, because they stock up on things like guns, and ammo, but forget to buy basic necessities, such as food, water, clothing, medical supplies, and tools. The focus on preparing for a less likely scenario detracts from their ability to function in the more likely scenario - you can't use a gun to build shelter, treat the injured, hydrate, communicate, etc.

But the fear of being victimized by a band of thugs, looters, and miscreants is much more visceral. Like how some people are deathly afraid of airplanes because they hear about crashes, but have no problem getting into a car, which is, statistically, much more dangerous.

[Trundlebug]

Unlike dragons, Wizards, Shaolin Monks, Gods, oozes, and drow. Not to mention historical fighting manuals contain excerpts that make the ToB read tame.

[Renen]

Damn... forgot to make text blue...

[Spacehamster]

Could always spend a feat to get long-axe, reach weapon that works both at close quarter and
reach lenght. :)

[Jay R]

A lot of "preppers" amuse me,...

I'm glad you're amused. Meanwhile, the DM and I are both SCA fighters, and we both know how to fight against a pole arm. (I've beaten a glaive man with dagger and buckler. And the DM has won tournaments with a glaive.)

If I'm not prepared for it, I will be swarmed.


What's wrong with using armor spikes or a guantlet or a spiked gauntlet?? Keep on holding or wielding the guisarme, you can still attack with armor spikes.

Primarily, he's wearing gloves of dexterity and light chain, neither of which can have them.


Could always spend a feat to get long-axe, reach weapon that works both at close quarter and reach lenght. :)

I can't find such a weapon in the books I have. Halberds aren't listed as reach weapons. But in any case, an axe with a ten-foot haft won't work well as close range. When choking up on a pole arm, the only likely shot is a thrust.

[torrasque666]

I'm glad you're amused. Meanwhile, the DM and I are both SCA fighters, and we both know how to fight against a pole arm. (I've beaten a glaive man with dagger and buckler. And the DM has won tournaments with a glaive.)

WOOO! SCA! I was gonna get into that. Then my classwork took me away from my practice.

[Juntao112]

I'm glad you're amused. Meanwhile, the DM and I are both SCA fighters, and we both know how to fight against a pole arm. (I've beaten a glaive man with dagger and buckler. And the DM has won tournaments with a glaive.)

If I'm not prepared for it, I will be swarmed.


I'm sorry, I had no idea you were LARPing. Ignore all my advice thus far, it was for a different game.

[Trundlebug]

I'm glad you're amused. Meanwhile, the DM and I are both SCA fighters, and we both know how to fight against a pole arm. (I've beaten a glaive man with dagger and buckler. And the DM has won tournaments with a glaive.)

If I'm not prepared for it, I will be swarmed.



Primarily, he's wearing gloves of dexterity and light chain, neither of which can have them.



I can't find such a weapon in the books I have. Halberds aren't listed as reach weapons. But in any case, an axe with a ten-foot haft won't work well as close range. When choking up on a pole arm, the only likely shot is a thrust.

If you are looking for a simulationist type game for RL D&D has way to many discrepancies. May want to consider a different rules model.

[torrasque666]

I'm sorry, I had no idea you were LARPing. Ignore all my advice thus far, it was for a different game.

If you think SCA is LARPing, you are sadly mistaken. LARPers wear cloth cut to look like armor. SCA fighters wear actual armor. LARPers hit each other with pieces of foam and plastic. SCA fighters hit with real steel weapons. You might get a twisted ankle LARPing. You could easily get broken bones in an SCA fight.

[Renen]

Primarily, he's wearing gloves of dexterity and light chain, neither of which can have them.


Really? Light chain cant have spikes? I might have missed where it said that. Mind pointing it out?

As for being swarmed, you know you can jack up your trip so high that nothing can resist it once they trigger AoO.

[Juntao112]

Really? Light chain cant have spikes? I might have missed where it said that. Mind pointing it out?

It doesn't matter if it is in the rules, the problem is that the combination is not realistic.

[Gavinfoxx]

Armor razors then. Or get gauntlets of dexterity. Problem solved.

Or just use this:

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/65250/Codex-Martialis-Set-BUNDLE?manufacturers_id=2481

[Renen]

It doesn't matter if it is in the rules, the problem is that the combination is not realistic.

Was that text supposed to be blue? Because in a game where a fighter's job is to protect the wizard thats casting god knows what unrealistic **** in the back, i dont really see the guy's point.

Know what else is not realistic? Not dying after being hit 4-5 times with a sword. So i guess you wont be playing with positive CON either? (directed at OP, since poster above was most likely sarcastic)

[Flickerdart]

When wearing a chain shirt, one could logically have it spiked by wearing leather straps buckled across the body, on which the spikes are mounted. Is that realistic enough for you?

[Jay R]

What's wrong with taking a 5ft step back?If they aren't idiots, there are enemies on each side.Do you anticipate being surrounded often and easily?"Often and easily"? No, not at all. But if I haven't planned for it, once is all that's needed for the character to die.A lot of "preppers" amuse me, ...I'm glad you're amused. Meanwhile, the DM and I are both SCA fighters, and we both know how to fight against a pole arm. (I've beaten a glaive man with dagger and buckler. And the DM has won tournaments with a glaive.)

If I'm not prepared for it, I will be swarmed.

I'm sorry, I had no idea you were LARPing. Ignore all my advice thus far, it was for a different game.

Insult received. My point, that you keep trying to disregard, is that if there is an opponent in each of eight squares around my character, then he cannot just step five feet back away from them all, as you suggested above. In the actual game of D&D, I also expect my DM to send minions to do just that. I get Attacks of Opportunity on the first 4 only, then they can swarm.

That isn't "larping", that's a simple fact. If there are enemies to the north, south, east, and west, I cannot escape them all in a single five foot step.

But yes, I agree to ignore all your advice. If it takes this long to convince you I can't get away from all my foes by "taking a 5ft step back," when surrounded, then you probably don't need to be consulted.

------------------

Everybody else: I'm sorry we spent so much time going down this rabbit hole. To answer another question:

I don't particularly like armor spikes. If I wasn't wearing magic gloves, I might consider spiked gauntlets, but other armor spikes don't appeal to me. It doesn't matter why; I don't want to use them with this character.

For all of you who tried to help me build the character I wanted to play, thank you very much - you've been quite helpful.

To everybody, whether we agreed or not: thank you very much. I learned a lot about the game from you, including the parts I don't particularly want to try with this character.

Now, I'm ready to take Gustav off to the game!

[Gavinfoxx]

You can wear magic gauntlets rather than magic gloves. The gloves dont have to be in the form of a glove. See MIC, they just have to follow the body slot.

[Renen]

If your GM sends so much **** at you that they occupy all 8 squares around you, then you are either:
1) already dead (and thus dont need to do ANYTHING)
2) Just ignore the said mooks, because they are so weak that they can only hit you on a nat 20. (And your party can kill them more effectively with just about any AoE (color spray?) or by just hitting them once)

[Juntao112]

3) Just draw a weapon. It's not like you incur an AoO from doing so. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#draworSheatheaWeapon)

Point 2) could use some expanding upon: if the enemy is just cannon fodder, you can trip them as they incur an AoO for movement. Since the tripping happens before they move, the fall prone on their square if you succeed. And then you hit them for some damage. Or, if you have Knock-Down, you hit them, trip them, then hit them again.

[Renen]

I figured the drop as free action and swift draw something else was covered when some 1 suggested swift draw feat.

[Gavinfoxx]

You dont have to drop your polearm. Just switch from wielding it, which takes two hands, to just holding it in one hand.

[Sir Chuckles]

And, again, your gloves do not have to be gloves. They can be gauntlets, handwraps, fuzzy mittens, whatever. As long as you wear them on the hands and they take up that slot. The same goes with any other slotted magic item. Sandals of Springing and Striding, Top Hat of Disguise, Monocle of whatever goes in eye slots.

For a 50% increase in price, you can change the slot. Now you have a Loincloth of Dexterity or Fuzzy Freakin' Toe Socks of Charisma. Double the price, and the slotted item becomes slotless, like an Ioun Stone.

[Renen]

Loincloth? Why not a jockstrap of charisma?

[Jay R]

I only had so much money, and since I was entering the campaign, could only buy items as listed in the DMG.

The character design is complete, and I had a great first game.

I went with Improved Initiative as the final feat. As it turned out, it has had no effect so far. We only had two melees, and each time, my adjusted role would have been higher than the bad guys without it.

The Frost Giants weren't easy to trip. I tried once, and almost succeeded. But "almost succeeded" means "failed", so I didn't dare try again.

Thanks to your help, my character was the most optimized melee fighter there, so I went back to just dealing damage faster than anyone else.

The Winter Wolves tripped a little easier.

Thank you all for your help.

Those of you who wanted to help me build a Fighter / Ranger the way I conceived him, and accepted the fact that I wasn't going to use armor spikes or a spiked chain, you made my character much better than he would have been.

Those of you who wanted to talk about aspects of the game that didn't fit this character conception, thank you as well. I know a lot more about the game now.

But now that we have loot, I have one more question.

How do I decide when to use a Guisarme +2 (which I already had) and when to use a Flaming Burst longsword +3, giving up the trip attack for more magic? I'm in the north, so creatures hurt by flame attacks will be pretty common.

This is equivalent to asking when the Trip is more important than better damage.

[Juntao112]

You don't give up the trip attack, you give up reach and the ability to drop your weapon if the trip attempt fails. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip)

[Flickerdart]

You're probably never going to be able to trip Huge or Large and quadrupedal opponents consistently enough. Also, if there is a single creature in the combat, chances are that its Strength and HP are both really high, so in both cases you'll want to pull out the longsword for that extra edge in damage.

Against Medium-sized opponents, though? Rock that guisarme. It will work best in situations where there are other melee characters nearby so they can take advantage of you knocking the enemy down.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, a guisarme is 2d4+2+1.5x str, and a +3 flaming burst longsword is 1d8+3+1.5x (assuming you two hand the thing).

So 7 damage vs 7.5 damage, so it's pretty much a wash, sell the flaming burst longsword and sell your gloves and commission some +1 gauntlets that are also gauntlets of dexterity