Gestalt rules + psionics/incarnum PP/Essentia pools.... help

[Bellberith]

In Gestalt rules how do you handle someone playing 2 psionic classes? do their PP pools stack or keep track of them separately like you do with spellcasters?

Same with incarnum.

[Ssalarn]

In Gestalt rules how do you handle someone playing 2 psionic classes? do their PP pools stack or keep track of them separately like you do with spellcasters?

Same with incarnum.

I don't believe these two systems were ever clearly addressed in gestalt rules, but these probably come closer to the "choose whichever is the best" portion of the rules. If you were to multiclass you could blend these pools, so tracking them separately for gestalt is going to be very arbitrary and maybe a bit odd.

Stacking them will have awkward repercussions, particularly in Incarnum where essentia is an intentionally small pool with enforced resource management. You're unlikely to actually break anything with Incarnum, though the character may be rolling around with consistently maxed out soulmelds causing the system to just play differently than it was designed to depending on how you're comboing things. Again, nothing gamebreaking, just different since you won't be having to move your essentia around and choose between offense and defense as much.

Psionics.... The biggest worry with stacking power point pools here is that you're going to be able to nova more consistently with out burning through PP as fast. Considering gestalt is designed to shore up characters running in smaller than normal parties though, probably not a problem.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, I think it would be best to keep it "Best progression at each level" for psionics. Multiclassing Psiwar and Psion ends up with tons of powers known and the psion power pool.

I could go ether way with incarnum. The roof of power is much lower and though you will hit the cap for investing essence fairly quickly, that cap ins't too hard to hit anyway, nor is it gamebreaking when you do. You are a gestalt focusing on one aspect of the game, you should rock that aspect as far as it can be rocked without upsetting the game balance.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class."

A Psion//Psychic Warrior will get the Psion's powerpoints/level, because that's the better of the two, but he does not get both.
A Psion//Wilder will get the powerpoints/level of only one of the two classes, but they're equal so it doesn't matter which you pick.
If you use two psionic classes that use different ability scores for manifesting and bonus powerpoints, then you'll get bonus powerpoints for both of those stats. The above examples would get bonus powerpoints for both Int and Wis, and both Int and Cha, respectively.

[Starmage21]

"Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class."

A Psion//Psychic Warrior will get the Psion's powerpoints/level, because that's the better of the two, but he does not get both.
A Psion//Wilder will get the powerpoints/level of only one of the two classes, but they're equal so it doesn't matter which you pick.
If you use two psionic classes that use different ability scores for manifesting and bonus powerpoints, then you'll get bonus powerpoints for both of those stats. The above examples would get bonus powerpoints for both Int and Wis, and both Int and Cha, respectively.

With the psionics, I'd say you're thinking too hard about the power pools. The real answer is you treat them no different than a Sorcerer//Wizard. Separate pools for each class.

[Fouredged Sword]

If you did that, I would want there to be a barrier between the two, so you can't cast your psion powers from your warblade pool of PP.

[Starmage21]

If you did that, I would want there to be a barrier between the two, so you can't cast your psion powers from your warblade pool of PP.

Thats exactly the way it should work. You dont get to cast your sorcerer spells from your list of wizard spells known either.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

With the psionics, I'd say you're thinking too hard about the power pools. The real answer is you treat them no different than a Sorcerer//Wizard. Separate pools for each class.

That's not how multiclass psionic manifesters work: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/index.htm#multiclassPsionicCharacters)

Multiclass Psionic Characters

If you have levels in more than one psionic class, you combine your power points from each class to make up your reserve. You can use these power points to manifest powers from any psionic class you have.

While you maintain a single reserve of power points from your class, race, and feat selections, you are still limited by the manifester level you have achieved with each power you know.

[Starmage21]

That's not how multiclass psionic manifesters work: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/index.htm#multiclassPsionicCharacters)

I was not aware of that rule. Now that I'm aware of it, I tend to agree with some of the previous interpretations that have appeared. A dual-psionic gestalt would have a large power point pool. I dont think that it would be particularly broken, compared to some of the power boosts you get from synergistic builds of other gestalt classes.

[Troacctid]

Of course power points from two sides should stack. Yes, they can use twice as many powers per day. That's because they have twice as many psionic classes. Just like a Wizard//Cleric can cast twice as many spells per day. It's kind of the whole point.

Likewise with incarnum. You have twice as much essentia. And you're going to need it, because you have twice as many soulmelds to put it in. Again, kind of the point--there would be no reason to gestalt them otherwise.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Of course power points from two sides should stack. Yes, they can use twice as many powers per day. That's because they have twice as many psionic classes. Just like a Wizard//Cleric can cast twice as many spells per day. It's kind of the whole point.

Likewise with incarnum. You have twice as much essentia. And you're going to need it, because you have twice as many soulmelds to put it in. Again, kind of the point--there would be no reason to gestalt them otherwise.

It's not the same thing, though. Wizard spell slots and Cleric spell slots are not the same class feature. Psionic power points are not kept separate for each class, a given character has a single pool from which every class draws, so every class that grants power points increases this pool. Every class that grants power points grants the same class feature as another class that grants power points, so by RAW you get the power points per level of whichever class increases it the fastest. The same goes for Essentia, a given character has a single Essentia pool and multiple classes that increase that pool grant the same class feature, so you use the progression from whichever one increases it the fastest. The soulmelds from each class are gained separately, as are powers known from different classes, so those are different class features. But the pools of points that are shared between every class would not double-up.

[Troacctid]

It's not the same thing, though. Wizard spell slots and Cleric spell slots are not the same class feature. Psionic power points are not kept separate for each class, a given character has a single pool from which every class draws, so every class that grants power points increases this pool. Every class that grants power points grants the same class feature as another class that grants power points, so by RAW you get the power points per level of whichever class increases it the fastest. The same goes for Essentia, a given character has a single Essentia pool and multiple classes that increase that pool grant the same class feature, so you use the progression from whichever one increases it the fastest. The soulmelds from each class are gained separately, as are powers known from different classes, so those are different class features. But the pools of points that are shared between every class would not double-up.

What matters isn't that they're the same. What matters is that they don't overlap.


If the two classes you choose have aspects that overlap (such as Hit Dice, attack progression, saves, and class features common to more than one class), you choose the better aspect. The gestalt character retains all aspects that don’t overlap.

"Class features common to more than one class" only have you choose the better progression if they overlap. (The section quoted earlier in this thread gives the example of Uncanny Dodge, which is redundant with other versions of itself.) Power points and essentia pools don't overlap with each other. They stack. Therefore, you get them from both sides.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"Class features common to more than one class" only have you choose the better progression if they overlap. (The section quoted earlier in this thread gives the example of Uncanny Dodge, which is redundant with other versions of itself.) Power points and essentia pools don't overlap with each other. They stack. Therefore, you get them from both sides.

Sneak Attack stacks, but you can't get it from both sides when taking Rogue//Assassin.

[AmberVael]

In terms of RAW, you probably just take the higher of the two in both cases.

In terms of what is a good idea, I'd say it is a pretty mean thing to do to gimp them that way. Like a gestalted spellcaster gets both sets of spells per day, a psion should get the power points from both classes- it's only fair, really. Otherwise they get only about half the power from the gestalt that they should. They would get some advantage from having a single pool, admittedly, but its better than cutting their power points in half. Incarnum is in a similar boat, but even less troublesome. (Really, if you're gestalting two base incarnum classes you're just doing it wrong- you have too few slots to ever make use of all the melds you'll get).

[Starmage21]

In terms of RAW, you probably just take the higher of the two in both cases.

In terms of what is a good idea, I'd say it is a pretty mean thing to do to gimp them that way. Like a gestalted spellcaster gets both sets of spells per day, a psion should get the power points from both classes- it's only fair, really. Otherwise they get only about half the power from the gestalt that they should. They would get some advantage from having a single pool, admittedly, but its better than cutting their power points in half. Incarnum is in a similar boat, but even less troublesome. (Really, if you're gestalting two base incarnum classes you're just doing it wrong- you have too few slots to ever make use of all the melds you'll get).

Given that the psionic rules wouldve been written independently of the Unearthed Arcana rulebook and subsequent 3.5 update, I do not think that the pools SHOULD stack. In a single-class game where you'd have PrCs and other psionic base classes included, it doesnt make sense to not stack up those power point pools.

I argue that to keep the 2 psionic sides separate in a gestalt game, you are NOT being nerfed in any way. Now you're just doing it like a Sor//Wiz or a Wiz//Clr.
I acknowledge that given my lack of familiary with psionics, that this may bar you from some synergy that you might otherwise need. The way I see it, keeping them separate a la Psion//PsyWar prevents you from doing effectively playing a Wizard//Duskblade and using your Duskblade spell slots to cast Wizard spells and vice versa.

[shadow_archmagi]

In theory I'd advocate for counting them seperately, but practically speaking, that creates extra bookkeeping, and I can't see it being gamebreakingly good to just let them have one pool.

[Ssalarn]

***(Really, if you're gestalting two base incarnum classes you're just doing it wrong- you have too few slots to ever make use of all the melds you'll get).

The best thing to do is just solve the problem by gestalting psionic/incarnum. Psychic Warrior/Totemist FTW!!

[deuxhero]

Caster//Caster has always been a fairly weak gestalt, and Manifester//Manifester is worse because you don't even have unique spells and unlike Archivist//Wizard, I don't think there are two "full" manifesters that manifest off the same stats in 3.5.

I'd take Psion//Warblade (can manifest in armor with no issues, tons of ways to up your survivability with powers) or Psion//Factotum (extra actions+manifesting, though Wizard//Factotum is even nicer) over Psion//whatever manifester anyday.

[Renen]

asked in Q/A but wanna ask here too: what about psionic/spsionic gestalt's bonus pp?
At 5th level and 16 ability score, you get 10 bonus PP (normally)
Would it still be 10 in gestalt, or 20 (10 for one gestalt side, 10 for the other)

[deuxhero]

I'm no psionics expert, but you get bonus spells from high attributes in a gestalt on both sides


As an amendum to my previous note, in PF that would be worth gestalting due to DSP making more psionic classes (Egoist//Aegis seems pretty meaty)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

asked in Q/A but wanna ask here too: what about psionic/spsionic gestalt's bonus pp?
At 5th level and 16 ability score, you get 10 bonus PP (normally)
Would it still be 10 in gestalt, or 20 (10 for one gestalt side, 10 for the other)

Not if both classes use the same ability score, but otherwise yes.

[Renen]

So Psion//wilder would get 20 to PP if CHA and INT are 16 (at lvl 5)?

[Rubik]

Not if both classes use the same ability score, but otherwise yes.If both manifesting classes gain their respective power point pools, they'd both gain bonus pp from a high ability score, since they'd get them normally.

That, and spellcasters gain their bonus spell slots normally, so screwing psionic manifesters is pretty much just a jerk move.

[otakumick]

power points should stack... not that it matters, you can nova no easier than a singleclassed nongestalt psion.(though that is pretty easy) you are still limited by manifester level with regards to how many points you can use with a single power. Besides, there are so many ways to recharge yourself it isn't even funny(can't remember how many but it's more than one and one is enough).

As far as psionic classes with the same modifier go, I can think of two pairs off the top of my head. Psion//Erudite and Ardent//Psychic Warrior, for Int//Int and Wis//Wis respectively. (though it could easily be argued that Erudite could not pair with Psion due to it being called a variant Psion class)

As far as stacking sneak attack from Assassin//Rogue goes... sure you can... if you have the levels properly staggered.

[AmberVael]

I argue that to keep the 2 psionic sides separate in a gestalt game, you are NOT being nerfed in any way. Now you're just doing it like a Sor//Wiz or a Wiz//Clr.
The question isn't "Do you track the power points you get as two separate pools," its "do you actually get the pools from both classes," and that's what I was addressing. Which is why I said you would only be getting half your power points- it's not in a separate pool, you never got it at all because of how the rules for gestalt are worded. That's definitely a massive nerf.

As for whether to track them separately or not, there's just... no precedent under the psionics system for that. You could do it, technically, but it might cause some issues with various feats and abilities. It's frankly easier to just stack them into a single pool as the default rules for psionics suggest, particularly since the power boost isn't very big in the end.


Not if both classes use the same ability score, but otherwise yes.

This is, as far as I am aware, incorrect. Unless you are suggesting that it would be an overlap under the gestalt rules, you are entirely capable of gaining bonus power points from the same ability score from multiple classes.

Now admittedly, there are some prestige classes that specifically say no to that, but that isn't a general rule- it is specifically written into those classes.

[Vhaidara]

The best thing to do is just solve the problem by gestalting psionic/incarnum. Psychic Warrior/Totemist FTW!!

Nonono, this is where you take your opportunity to go Psion/Psion Uncarnate//Incarnate.