How to tell your dm you don't like the campaign when the dm is your best friend?

[clericgirl]

So my new DM is one of my best friends. He's also a first time DM. I've tried to give him advice story wise, however, he is running the campaign exactly how his book goes; accept he's swapped the main characters for our player characters. I've read the book so I know the plot from front to back. I've told him he needs something different but he insists he's tweaking the book and altering somethings. I don't want to play dnd to the almost exact tune of someones unpublished book. I also don't want to hurt his feelings as he's super excited. How to I approach this without hurting his feelings? Some of the other pc's are feeling the same way.

[AnonymousPepper]

Oh my. This seems awfully familiar...

Anyone have the link to that thread where the DM had a super Marty Stu character that was "badass" with his dual katanas and a reality warper and everything? >____>


As a general rule, OP, anyone who is trying to make the campaign follow a tight script is bad news as far as gameplay goes and they need to be directly confronted about it as soon as possible. Tactfully so, but they do need to be talked to - "Hey, man, D&D isn't just the DM telling the story, it's the players too. Making us follow a script is not fun. D&D is not a book. It's fine that you have a book you're working on, and I really like your book, but that kind of approach, making us follow it to the letter, just doesn't work in D&D. The players and the DM have to work together to tell a story. Having the story told in advance just doesn't make for good gameplay, dude. No offense, because it really is a good book."

[Tohsaka Rin]

If you think your friend can take the comment without yelling or storming off, ask him:

"What can we accomplish, in this game, that wouldn't be done equally as well with NPCs, aside from providing you an audience?"

Now that does strike me as (somewhat) horribly mean, so I suggest someone find a way to clean it up.

The point is, you're there to play a game together, not ad-lib lines for a play he wrote, while he dictates direction at you.

If this doesn't sway him, just go right off the rails. Jump them. Go straight into the dullest things you can think of. Become farmers. Bakers.

Stop the plot right in its tracks through sheer mundanity.

Why do it boring? Because when most people revolt and hop the rails, they do it via violence, and I wanted to suggest something different for once.

Still, the point is; Don't take this lying down. If words don't suffice, then action.

This is one step below walking out, which is reserved for, y'know, jerk DMs. We don't want to go that far.

[AnonymousPepper]

The DM is a friend of hers, so I wouldn't advise jumping off the rails like an Olympic long jumper immediately. A tactful conversation is the first thing to do. After that, have the other players talk with him together with you. After THAT, jump off the rails. And then either walk out or destroy his setting as gloriously as possible depending on how much of an ass you want to be at this point. That's my four step plan to dealing with railroady DMs.

[clericgirl]

If you think your friend can take the comment without yelling or storming off, ask him:

"What can we accomplish, in this game, that wouldn't be done equally as well with NPCs, aside from providing you an audience?"

Now that does strike me as (somewhat) horribly mean, so I suggest someone find a way to clean it up.

The point is, you're there to play a game together, not ad-lib lines for a play he wrote, while he dictates direction at you.

If this doesn't sway him, just go right off the rails. Jump them. Go straight into the dullest things you can think of. Become farmers. Bakers.

Stop the plot right in its tracks through sheer mundanity.

Why do it boring? Because when most people revolt and hop the rails, they do it via violence, and I wanted to suggest something different for once.

Still, the point is; Don't take this lying down. If words don't suffice, then action.

This is one step below walking out, which is reserved for, y'know, jerk DMs. We don't want to go that far.

Yeah I don't want to walk out but I'm just not having fun. There is nothing special for the pc's no side quests or anything that makes us feel "special". I really don't want an argument but we're getting to the point of finding excuses not to play. I may try to be random and my character refuses to go along with the plot line. I'm worried that will piss him off though.

[shadowseve]

honestly I would simply tell him as nicely as possible and have a discussion with the group before the session started. If the players are looking for excuses not to play then it's time to talk. If he's mature then he'll take the constructive criticism and learn from it.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Like I said: Words, then actions.

Because the last thing you want to do, is put someone new to the game off of it forever.

Keeping that in mind, you really don't want them to think this sort of DMing is actually accepted at all.

People call it a railroad for a reason. A to B.

There is no fun in the middle.

It's a group game, if everyone sitting at the table (DM included) isn't having fun, you all (as a group) need to address why.

[shadowseve]

As a DM you should always have multiple plots set so your characters can chose which way they want to go. You should also allow for the occasional bs game when PC's decide to get drunk instead of going to your dungeon you spent all week planning. It happens. If talking fails then have your character join the bad side and see what happens. Part of being a good DM is dealing with and planning for PC's doing random things.

[Ortesk]

Having dealt with dm's like this, i can feel your pain. my 2 coppers is to take him aside and tell him its not fun, dnd is about fun, and playing a semi interactive story book isnt your idea of having fun. following that, you know him better than we do. you know what would offend him least and what would work most. if he keeps it up, call him out at the table. if he keeps it up even more, you either stomach through it, walk out, or go for my personal favorite and burn the campaign to the ground. i had a friend who made us go story book 100% off a skyrim world and it was so boring. talking to him didnt work and nothing would phase him, so i killed my character and brought back something just short of pun pun and literally destroyed the world to prove my point. in the end, do what works best for you. if this is your first dm im going to assume you're newish, and advise just copy/pasting a build off the forums to obliterate his capaign if you choose that route

[JusticeZero]

Also, be ready to run a few games of your own with your friend as a player where you don't do the thing they are doing.

[clericgirl]

Also, be ready to run a few games of your own with your friend as a player where you don't do the thing they are doing.

I would love to if I thought he would be ok with it. He's a great guy but he's very "attached" to his world and his book.

[JusticeZero]

Then don't run it in his setting. Just saying that objecting to a game is not a nice stance to take if you aren't ready to take the screen for a bit yourself.
You might also try saying you are interested in seeing more of the places where the book doesn't go, and go racing in fan person glee toward the cool place that was mentioned in the lore that the book never visited. You are being constructive and appreciate their world that way, you're just jumping the rails to explore a different part.

[Tohsaka Rin]

I wanna second what JusticeZero said.

I still stand by my 'revolt by being boring' suggestion, but try JZ's approach first.

It's much more diplomatic.

[shadowseve]

Then don't run it in his setting. Just saying that objecting to a game is not a nice stance to take if you aren't ready to take the screen for a bit yourself.
You might also try saying you are interested in seeing more of the places where the book doesn't go, and go racing in fan person glee toward the cool place that was mentioned in the lore that the book never visited. You are being constructive and appreciate their world that way, you're just jumping the rails to explore a different part.

This is good advice.

I'll third what he said.

[Cybris75]

Tell your friend that in role-playing games, authorship is shared between the players and the DM. They all tell the story together. It makes no sense for a DM to hog authorship - if that happens, you're at a book reading, not in a collaborative game.

I advise against replaying a plot that is already written down. The players are the actors, the world reacts to what they do. That doesn't mean that nothing happens in the world without the PCs, but it does mean that the story is about what the PCs do, not about what NPCs do. Of course, NPCs can influence the world, and that will lead to situations where PCs have to react to NPCs, but that is just a plot hook, and what the PCs do with that is decided by the players.

To use a painting analogy: the DM paints the canvas, the background, but the foreground is determined by the actions of the player characters.

You have to find a spot on the spectrum between the extremes of freeform sandbox-gaming on one side and strict railroading on the other side that your group (including the DM) is comfortable with. The game setting should belong to the players and the DM equally - the PCs will influence the setting, otherwise there would be no story.

[Menace]

There's one thing that makes me wonder...

You wrote that he substituced your characters for the main characters of the book. In every decent book its the main characters that make the choices that define how the story goes. So maybe just try acting differently that he heroes of his book ? Maybe you're just not noticing where you can branch off.

Well it won't work if he wants to railroad, but might be worth a try. Or you can just do it again.

[prufock]

So my new DM is one of my best friends. He's also a first time DM. I've tried to give him advice story wise, however, he is running the campaign exactly how his book goes; accept he's swapped the main characters for our player characters. I've read the book so I know the plot from front to back. I've told him he needs something different but he insists he's tweaking the book and altering somethings. I don't want to play dnd to the almost exact tune of someones unpublished book. I also don't want to hurt his feelings as he's super excited. How to I approach this without hurting his feelings? Some of the other pc's are feeling the same way.

Just to make sure I understand this guy: he wrote his own novel, and is now trying to shoehorn you into acting it out? His unpublished, no doubt awful novel? This guy does not know how to run a roleplaying game.

Step 1 is to talk to the guy and explain what's wrong. You've done that already and it didn't work.
Step 2 is to make your own fun. Go off-book in ways that perk your interest, and don't let up. Force him to improvise.
Step 3 is to walk. You aren't having fun, why stick around and play a boring game? You do realize he's wasting your time.

[clericgirl]

Then don't run it in his setting. Just saying that objecting to a game is not a nice stance to take if you aren't ready to take the screen for a bit yourself.
You might also try saying you are interested in seeing more of the places where the book doesn't go, and go racing in fan person glee toward the cool place that was mentioned in the lore that the book never visited. You are being constructive and appreciate their world that way, you're just jumping the rails to explore a different part.

I think I'm going to try to follow this since I have DM'd before. Thanks for the advice everyone.

[Bronk]

If this guy insists on running the game even after talking with him, remind him that you're holding back... since you know the entire plot, it's actually hard for you not to take advantage of that knowledge and it isn't fun.

You could also remind him that he's using his inspiration backwards... he should make a new plot, even if it's in the same world, and use your game as an inspiration for a new book. He's already written the last one! Get ready for the sequel, or maybe an additional book in the same world... like the Discworld series.

[Yahzi]

I think I'm going to try to follow this since I have DM'd before. Thanks for the advice everyone.
You could also tell him you already read the book and you know how it ends. If that doesn't work, try flattery: tell him you don't think you can act out characters as well as he wrote them, so you'd rather run your own characters in their own story.

[John Longarrow]

clericgirl

If other tacts don't work, as your friend wants to change his book based off of your characters input, ask him if he will name all of you as co-authors.

Odds are that will be a "NO, but I'll give you credit".

Point out that if he does want you to colaborate on writting the book, you get to colaborate. Otherwise you want to play a game that doesn't become a book.

Most authors get kinda touchy about their "Story". They don't want people changing it on them. If you phrase it as "So you want us to help write?" instead of "We don't like your game" he may get the point.

[Chester]

This is your best friend?

"Dude, I don't like your campaign, and here's why . . ."

You can have a frank and open conversation privately with your best friend, methinks. :smallsmile:

[Threadnaught]

I had/have this problem with that ******* Druid. The solution is simple.

I told him outright that his game was crap, that he was a bad DM and I didn't enjoy myself the majority of the time.


He tends to start via cutscene.
Encounters have stupid starts where PCs can be attacked in an ambush, when they're the ones doing the ambushing.
Before Initiative is rolled.
They also tend to be overpowering.
Vague descriptions of important items.
He doesn't know where anything is.
He keeps asking me, as the person most familiar with the rules and most experienced DM, how to handle stuff.
He isn't able to look at the rules away from the actual gaming sessions.


Every time I'm asked about the rules, I read it out to him and tell him my thoughts, before reminding him who's DMing. Not me.
While he isn't as experienced as I am in DMing and he wasn't as confidant in the most recent game (1st session of his new Campaign), it was actually pretty fun. If he can keep it up without slipping and making too many mistakes, I think I'm going to enjoy tearing this world apart. For fun, rather than out of spite. :smallamused:



I suggest you do the same and just be bluntly honest with your friend. These problems need to be addressed and dealt with, they must not be allowed to fester and grow into a larger issue.

[Chester]

I had/have this problem with that ******* Druid. The solution is simple.

I told him outright that his game was crap, that he was a bad DM and I didn't enjoy myself the majority of the time.


He tends to start via cutscene.
Encounters have stupid starts where PCs can be attacked in an ambush, when they're the ones doing the ambushing.
Before Initiative is rolled.
They also tend to be overpowering.
Vague descriptions of important items.
He doesn't know where anything is.
He keeps asking me, as the person most familiar with the rules and most experienced DM, how to handle stuff.
He isn't able to look at the rules away from the actual gaming sessions.


Every time I'm asked about the rules, I read it out to him and tell him my thoughts, before reminding him who's DMing. Not me.
While he isn't as experienced as I am in DMing and he wasn't as confidant in the most recent game (1st session of his new Campaign), it was actually pretty fun. If he can keep it up without slipping and making too many mistakes, I think I'm going to enjoy tearing this world apart. For fun, rather than out of spite. :smallamused:



I suggest you do the same and just be bluntly honest with your friend. These problems need to be addressed and dealt with, they must not be allowed to fester and grow into a larger issue.

Personally, unfamiliarity with some obscure rules isn't a bad thing. We all need to start somewhere.

The biggest issue would be whether or not the players are having fun. A DM who knows all the rules but who goes out of his way to make sure your character is useless is far worse than a DM who needs help with a bullrush. :smallsmile:

But yes, frank discussion is necessary. It goes down more smoothly if you can point out something positive, however small.

[Threadnaught]

Personally, unfamiliarity with some obscure rules isn't a bad thing. We all need to start somewhere.

Absolutely, my start was in our second session ever and I've been DMing for over two years now. Now before the first session I did my research and even came here to get some tips on how best to play/DM. He didn't/was unable to do that.
It's just a small annoyance, he should grow out of it eventually... I really don't want to babysit. :smallsigh:

Of the eight items above, two are about his familiarity with the rules and one of those is actually helping him become a better DM. The rest are why I announced to him how much I disliked his DMing style.


The biggest issue would be whether or not the players are having fun. A DM who knows all the rules but who goes out of his way to make sure your character is useless is far worse than a DM who needs help with a bullrush. :smallsmile:

Which is why I'm so glad that all of my players/DMs (we rotate now) are dedicated to learning as much about the rules and optimization, either during or between games. They don't really optimize all that much, but they're learning what to look out for and how to counter certain builds. They're like the children I never wanted. :smallbiggrin:

[Vhaidara]

Anyone have the link to that thread where the DM had a super Marty Stu character that was "badass" with his dual katanas and a reality warper and everything? >____>

Here you go (http://irolledazero.blogspot.com/p/properly-ordered-posts.html). Just finished reading it last week. Worth the read.

Also, out of curiosity, what book? That can make a difference. Some books (LotR, for example) have a lot of open areas to explore that aren't covered.

[Yawgmoth]

"I just don't want to play your book. Call me when you run something in a different setting with a fully different plot." And then leave. The purpose of the game is to have fun and you are not having fun; thus, you should stop playing because it's probably very obvious to everyone else you're not getting anything from this.

[JusticeZero]

It doesn't have to be a different setting. I'm sure that they could make a great game in the setting of the book. But not if they're following the book itself. Explicitly leave that to the heroes of the book; you're the heroes of another story in the same world.
If need be, literally go find the heroes of the book and hand your quest off to them.

[gc25774]

Well, I would tell him how I feel. Because a good DM (At least to me) should make sure the party is having fun. If you aren't having fun, tell him. If he refuses, have as much fun as humanly possible. By any means. Just work it out.

[Vhaidara]

Oh, if the GM insists on staying in this setting, you could always do the ultimate campaign turnaround: join the villain. One of my favorite things I've had happen in a game was in Lord of the Rings: Conquest, where, upon beating the game and destroying the Ring, you unlocked the Evil Campaign. Also known as Sauron gets the Ring at the end and goes on a rampage across Middle Earth.

[Dimers]

I would love to if I thought he would be ok with it. He's a great guy but he's very "attached" to his world and his book.

That's the key. Let him know that if the game continues in this world/book, it will get sullied and twisted and rejected in ways; it will not turn out how it's supposed to.