[3.5] Tumble.

[Yael]

So... Once again, we meet...

As you might remember (or maybe not), I talked you guys about a certain dude (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?355989-3-5-Aiming-for-the-head) who liked to mess up with the entire game, DM and players calling it a waste of time, awful DM'ing, and his own version of the rules.

Now, this sunday we got another hit :D

Just imagine the following: The party is fighting a being that is known as "the last of the giants", obviously, a giant. The entire party is fighting him, we all rolled our turns and at the giant's turn (which conveniently was last turn) his attack was a swing of his arms, which reached almost all of us in a 15ft radius. It was a normal swing, using a single attack roll to hit anything on his path; but, here comes our hero.

He rolled a d20 and got a 13, he said he got a 20 and he wouldn't get hit. The DM asked him why did he rolled the dice, because he wasn't asking anyone to do so. This guy told him that he rolled a tumble check to avoid being hit, once again, we were all like :smallconfused:.


"Tumble checks aren't supposed to work that way, dude."

-Me, 2014.

So he argued again that it is the reason the skill is picked. I disagred, because I am using the skill to get behind enemies (jumping above them), to do not cause AoOs, and this guy here thinks he can actually deny damage by having a FREE d20+Dex+Tumble+2(Jump 5+)? That is just insane... But he argued that he found a feat that allowed him to use that skill to avoid getting hit (dirty trick), we asked WHERE he got that feat, and he answered: Pathfinder.

So... I am nowhere to know a thing about PF, so a little help please? Also, I'm pretty sure that you can't respond an attack with a skill that requires an action to be acomplished, unless you would ready an action for it, maybe (and even so, you wouldn't be able to attack as he did)? So, PF guys, any ridiculously broken feat that does that every time? Skill trick? Power? I don't know, knowstone :v?

[Juntao112]

He's lying. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5LWHCHlHus)

[Tohsaka Rin]

If you're not playing Pathfinder, the answer is simple.

"We're not playing Pathfinder, that particular feat isn't in this system. NO."

If he persists, point out to him that if you're playing poker, he can't slap down an Uno card, and make another player miss a turn.

Also, you might want to consider slapping this guy. At this point, the fellow seems to be seeing just how far he can go with his terribly awful behavior.

As he seems to insist on persisting, I suggest going the route of 'No, that doesn't work, you lose your turn' every time he tries acting out like this.

Draw a line.

Enforce it with a stick.

If the stick doesn't work, don't get a carrot, get a bigger stick.

A Two by Four.

I like to call it the 'Clue by Four'.

Four being the number of times you need to hit someone with it, before they GET a clue, or are unconscious.

Don't worry about killing him, as his head seems plenty thick enough to prevent that from happening.

[erok0809]

I don't know the answer to your actual question, but if you're playing a game that isn't Pathfinder, and he tries to use a Pathfinder feat, shouldn't he not be allowed to have the feat at all anyway? Like shouldn't the DM have seen that feat and asked what it was and where it came from, and promptly told the player no, since it's not 3.5 material? Or is Pathfinder stuff allowed in your game?

Also, what's the name of the feat, according to the player?

[HammeredWharf]

Pathfinder doesn't even have Tumble and uses its CMD system for avoiding AoOs. Besides, choosing a PF trait/feat/whatever in a 3.5 game and house ruling it to work with Tumble would require DM permission, blah blah blah.

None of that is important, though. Why on earth are you still playing with that guy?

[Alanto]

Dirty Trick:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Dirty-Trick

Nope, not a feat, doesn't allow you to avoid stuff, doesn't have anything to do with Tumble. And given how much complaining I hear about PF Tumbling-equivalt Acrobatics uses, I feel comfortable assuming that whatever he might be on about doesn't exist, even under another name.

Yep, he's lying. Given exactly how he's chosen to lie, I'm wondering if he's just trying to wind you up at this point.

[Yael]

Too many questions, TL;DR is:

Still DM's best friend; PF material was disallowed, he still took it.

The "feat" was supposed to be called: Tumbling Reaction, which is a little bit odd for me... If this doesn't exist either in PF or 3.5, i don't know what the DM will do, this time this guy was more quiet, also he started to rewrite his character sheet because he didn't like his damage, I got a +1 shortbow from a band of guys that tried to gangbang me, and I wanted to give it to him (you know, sharing exp according to the system explained here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?355578-Roleplaying-advice-plus-Warblade-build-advice)) he rejected it and atempted to destroyt it because "it is stupid to enhance a shortbow, why the use of shortbows at all? Longbows and Greatbows are better, shortbows are a waste of time" Oh...

[Juntao112]

Too many questions, TL;DR is:

Still DM's best friend; PF material was disallowed, he still took it.


Does your group enjoy the game?

[Tohsaka Rin]

Stop making excuses.

I'm sorry if this is rude, but at this point, you're playing with a total JERK, and you should be very well aware of it yourself by now.

Call. Him. Out. On. It.

By not doing so, you're letting him think that he can get away with it.

DO NOT do this.

It is in no way helping solve the problem, and in fact, may be making it worse and/or prolonging the issue.

Don't be passive-aggressive about it, don't get 'all up in his face'.

But saying "Is that behavior really called for?" a few times would certainly go a long way, much further than silence ever will.

[Yael]

Does your group enjoy the game?

Well, because of the system, we are having some discordances, but we are having fun with the game. Almost all of us are following the game (with succeeds and mistakes) and laughing a lot (yah.)

Except for this guy there, we are having a good time.

BUT EXP AND MONEY TOGETHER MIXED AS SOULS, MAKING PROGRESS SLOWER TO NON-CASTERS AND LOOT CANNOT BE SELLED IS REALLY CRAPPY!!!
Had to say...

[Yael]

Stop making excuses.

I'm sorry if this is rude, but at this point, you're playing with a total JERK, and you should be very well aware of it yourself by now.

Call. Him. Out. On. It.

By not doing so, you're letting him think that he can get away with it.

DO NOT do this.

It is in no way helping solve the problem, and in fact, may be making it worse and/or prolonging the issue.

Don't be passive-aggressive about it, don't get 'all up in his face'.

But saying "Is that behavior really called for?" a few times would certainly go a long way, much further than silence ever will.

I actually have proposed a few times to kick him out of the group, but they don't want to be "bad friends"... I know we are being bad friends by having him doing all this... But he... ARG... Yeah, that.

[eggynack]

I don't know what to tell you. The answer to your question is always going to be pretty much the same. He's wrong/breaking the rules, and you should probably either cause him to be where you are not, or cause yourself to be where he is not. There are possible other solutions, like training up the DM in the ways of assertiveness, finding a large stick, or teaching the player how to not be a butt, but none of the solutions are going to involve the player somehow being right. Seriously, he apparently never even provides rules citations for this stuff.

[Bullet06320]

where you playing in a pathfinder game?
or was pathfinder material allowed?

and you should probly just boot this player to the curb, he obviously doesn't like the rules, and wants to make his own up

[Yael]

I don't know what to tell you. The answer to your question is always going to be pretty much the same. He's wrong/breaking the rules, and you should probably either cause him to be where you are not, or cause yourself to be where he is not. There are possible other solutions, like training up the DM in the ways of assertiveness, finding a large stick, or teaching the player how to not be a butt, but none of the solutions are going to involve the player somehow being right. Seriously, he apparently never even provides rules citations for this stuff.

Which leads me to the next question: What would you do to a friend of yours? I'm interested on knowing, maybe my DM would have some advice, remember that I'm not the DM and the last word is his.


where you playing in a pathfinder game?
or was pathfinder material allowed?

and you should probly just boot this player to the curb, he obviously doesn't like the rules, and wants to make his own up

No, nope, and we are waiting if we can get that answer positive (at least I am.)

[Tohsaka Rin]

Ask your DM if he thinks it's the right thing to do, letting his friend act-out like this.

A GOOD friend would try and help his friend get his act together, not let him make a colossal jackass of himself in front of a group of people who might very well snap, and kick the crap out of him.

...I'm not implying that you'll collectively beat his ass, but if he acts like this ALL the time, he's just one wrong bus ride short of a whoopin'.

I'm actually a little worried myself, now.

He has medical and dental, right?

[georgie_leech]

If I had to guess, he seems to be trying to use tumble like rolling is used in Dark Souls and its sequel (given that The Last Giant is the first boss fight in the sequel and rolling is essential unless you're massively over-levelled), which just doesn't work. Nothing to add here; he's either lying or woefully misinformed.

[Andion Isurand]

A quick search revealed this feat, albeit its a third party feat.

Acrobatic Dodge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/super-genius-games/combat-feats/acrobatic-dodge-combat) (3rd party pathfinder)

[Juntao112]

Well, because of the system, we are having some discordances, but we are having fun with the game. Almost all of us are following the game (with succeeds and mistakes) and laughing a lot (yah.)

Except for this guy there, we are having a good time.


Then you know what you must do.

[Yael]

A quick search revealed this feat, albeit its a third party feat.

Acrobatic Dodge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/super-genius-games/combat-feats/acrobatic-dodge-combat) (3rd party pathfinder)

Oh, come on. I was expecting it to do not exist, but oh well. Anyway, I'll submit this to our DM because even when we found it existing, it's PF, so if HE allows PF stuff, we all are going to take PF stuff. Thanks for this though.

[Tohsaka Rin]

A quick search revealed this feat, albeit its a third party feat.

Several things in the feat description disqualify it from working, however.

...How much you wanna bet the guy voided that feat from working in at least two different ways?

[Bullet06320]

A quick search revealed this feat, albeit its a third party feat.

Acrobatic Dodge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/super-genius-games/combat-feats/acrobatic-dodge-combat) (3rd party pathfinder)

and also note, there is a prereq feat he needs too, when you show it to your DM

[eggynack]

Which leads me to the next question: What would you do to a friend of yours? I'm interested on knowing, maybe my DM would have some advice, remember that I'm not the DM and the last word is his.

Well, my general first instinct would be to teach him the path of RAW. I'd ask to look at his sheet, and figure out whether everything adds up, and separately see if I'd be able to argue him out of his positions on this stuff. I tend to be reasonably good at that sort of thing. It would even possibly be smart to teach him about the magic that is rapid rules citations, possibly using PDF's for speedy access. Possibly advise the DM to demand the same, seeking fast citations or sticking with initial rulings. Best case scenario, you could potentially get yourself a decent rules lawyer, instead of a crappy munchkin type player like you have now. You could even show him how to actually do the stuff that he's feebly attempting to do now.

[Yael]

and also note, there is a prereq feat he needs too, when you show it to your DM

Yeah, actually I pointed out that this guy was taking feats without some prereqs...

[animewatcha]

How about you let him roll, he fails the roll ( no matter what due to DM increased DC ), he gets hit in the head, and dies from the blow.

[HammeredWharf]

Which leads me to the next question: What would you do to a friend of yours? I'm interested on knowing, maybe my DM would have some advice, remember that I'm not the DM and the last word is his.

Not all of my friends are friends with each other and I acknowledge some of my friends can be tactless jerks from time to time. It's important to know which of one's friends enjoy each others' company and which of them don't. In this case, it's clear you don't enjoy the other guy's company and I guess other members of your group share that feeling. The DM has to man up and tell his friend he's not welcome anymore, but they can still be friends. Friends don't have to do everything together. Friends don't have to ignore each others' flaws. In fact, I'd say telling your friend when he's being an immature man child is an important part of friendship.

[prufock]

Which leads me to the next question: What would you do to a friend of yours? I'm interested on knowing, maybe my DM would have some advice, remember that I'm not the DM and the last word is his.

My friends don't behave this childishly. If they did, they wouldn't be my friends for very long. I don't mind my friends having some ignorance of the rules, as long as they're willing to learn. I don't mind my friends arguing rules points with me, as long as they are reasonable. Your guy seems to be neither of the two.

I've said it before, your DM is a doormat, letting this guy browbeat him into doing whatever he wants. Vote with your feet. Walk. Start your own game, invite the DM to participate as a player and invite all the other players except the jerk.

[FidgetySquirrel]

:smallsigh: This guy again? Where do I even begin?

1. That feat is from the wrong system. Permission to use it should have been requested beforehand.

2. Not only is it from the wrong system, it's third party. See previous point, x2.

3. That is not dirty trick. Why did he say it was? Was he just lying to keep anyone from finding out it's not even core?

4. He destroyed an enchanted shortbow? Just because he doesn't like shortbows? Okay, this clowns just straight trollin' the group. Unless that character has some weird hook where he had a traumatizing experience related to shortbows, there's no reason to destroy perfectly good equipment/cash.

5. 3.5+PF is a lot of material, very easy to cheese. Though I suppose sufficient cheese might get PF material banned...

It wasn't so bad when I thought this was just about shooting monsters in the head, but this guy is obviously just trying to ruin the game for everyone. I don't know why, but he just seems to have a problem with the rest of you having fun. He needs to get booted badly. Good luck.

[Person_Man]

Your friend is wrong.

But I think you should keep the larger metagame in mind.

In 3.5 D&D, mid-high level players with sufficient rules mastery are almost never hit by attacks of opportunity triggered by movement. There are a huge variety of ways to buff Tumble (and Skills in general) to avoid getting hit by attacks of opportunity provoked by movement. In fact, if a player invests in Tumble, the player should almost never provoke an AoO unless the enemy has some sort of counter measure like Knight levels or Thicket of Blades (and even then it's debatable). In addition, if you have 10 or more ranks in Balance, you can make a Balance check (-10 penalty) in place of a Str or Dex check to resist being tripped. (Comp Adventurer pg 97). So (assuming your DM allows this obscure rule) you can easily avoid the second most common source of attacks of opportunity as well. There are also a large number of other tricks that allow you to avoid AoO, buff your opposed checks, move magically or psionically, fly, become ethereal or incorporeal, etc.

In Pathfinder, it's much more difficult, because the Acrobatics DC for moving through an opponent's threatened area is equal to the opponent's Combat Maneuver Defense, and CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size + miscellaneous modifiers (Feats/magic items/class abilities/spells/etc). But after publishing the core rules, the Pathfinder developers realized that they had made tumbling nearly impossible beyond low levels, and they built a serious of workarounds in supplements. (Ninja, Favored Class options, archetypes, magic items, etc). So now it's once possible for anyone who cares about it to avoid all AoO, although the investment for doing so is higher.

Short version: If a player wants to avoid AoO, and is willing to invest a Feat or other resources to do so, who cares. It's a normal and expected thing, even if this particular player went about it in the absolute worst way.

[Shining Wrath]

Your friend is wrong.

But I think you should keep the larger metagame in mind.

In 3.5 D&D, mid-high level players with sufficient rules mastery are almost never hit by attacks of opportunity triggered by movement. There are a huge variety of ways to buff Tumble (and Skills in general) to avoid getting hit by attacks of opportunity provoked by movement. In fact, if a player invests in Tumble, the player should almost never provoke an AoO unless the enemy has some sort of counter measure like Knight levels or Thicket of Blades (and even then it's debatable). In addition, if you have 10 or more ranks in Balance, you can make a Balance check (-10 penalty) in place of a Str or Dex check to resist being tripped. (Comp Adventurer pg 97). So (assuming your DM allows this obscure rule) you can easily avoid the second most common source of attacks of opportunity as well. There are also a large number of other tricks that allow you to avoid AoO, buff your opposed checks, move magically or psionically, fly, become ethereal or incorporeal, etc.

In Pathfinder, it's much more difficult, because the Acrobatics DC for moving through an opponent's threatened area is equal to the opponent's Combat Maneuver Defense, and CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size + miscellaneous modifiers (Feats/magic items/class abilities/spells/etc). But after publishing the core rules, the Pathfinder developers realized that they had made tumbling nearly impossible beyond low levels, and they built a serious of workarounds in supplements. (Ninja, Favored Class options, archetypes, magic items, etc). So now it's once possible for anyone who cares about it to avoid all AoO, although the investment for doing so is higher.

Short version: If a player wants to avoid AoO, and is willing to invest a Feat or other resources to do so, who cares. It's a normal and expected thing, even if this particular player went about it in the absolute worst way.

P_M: the player avoided an attack on the giant's turn, not on his own. He wanted to use a 3rd-party Pathfinder feat in a D&D game that allows him to tumble when attacked.

A DM that lets people just add 3rd-party stuff to their sheets without review is running a bad game ... because, after all, *the players* are just as valid sources of third party material as any stranger on the Internet.

"At level 6, I take the feat Blessed. Which reads: A number of times per day equal to my level I get to change any die roll I just made to a 20."

[Trasilor]

So... Once again, we meet...

As you might remember (or maybe not), I talked you guys about a certain dude (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?355989-3-5-Aiming-for-the-head) who liked to mess up with the entire game, DM and players calling it a waste of time, awful DM'ing, and his own version of the rules.

Now, this sunday we got another hit :D

Just imagine the following: The party is fighting a being that is known as "the last of the giants", obviously, a giant. The entire party is fighting him, we all rolled our turns and at the giant's turn (which conveniently was last turn) his attack was a swing of his arms, which reached almost all of us in a 15ft radius. It was a normal swing, using a single attack roll to hit anything on his path; but, here comes our hero.

He rolled a d20 and got a 13, he said he got a 20 and he wouldn't get hit. The DM asked him why did he rolled the dice, because he wasn't asking anyone to do so. This guy told him that he rolled a tumble check to avoid being hit, once again, we were all like :smallconfused:.


"Tumble checks aren't supposed to work that way, dude."

-Me, 2014.

So he argued again that it is the reason the skill is picked. I disagred, because I am using the skill to get behind enemies (jumping above them), to do not cause AoOs, and this guy here thinks he can actually deny damage by having a FREE d20+Dex+Tumble+2(Jump 5+)? That is just insane... But he argued that he found a feat that allowed him to use that skill to avoid getting hit (dirty trick), we asked WHERE he got that feat, and he answered: Pathfinder.

So... I am nowhere to know a thing about PF, so a little help please? Also, I'm pretty sure that you can't respond an attack with a skill that requires an action to be acomplished, unless you would ready an action for it, maybe (and even so, you wouldn't be able to attack as he did)? So, PF guys, any ridiculously broken feat that does that every time? Skill trick? Power? I don't know, knowstone :v?

Once again this is not a rules question but rather a problem player question.

Instead of talking to the problem player, talk to the DM. Encourage him to stand up for themselves. The DM needs to be able to say no to players - otherwise it becomes a free-for-all.

Also, auditing character sheets is normal and should be done periodically. I do it to ensure the Players are not missing anything. I imagine that if you audited this guy's sheet, you would find all sorts of problems.

Finally, get the DM to write down the rules of the table:
Books Allowed
Races/Classes Allowed
Character Creation (point buy vs die rolling)
Alterations to Feats/Skills/etc.
Approved Homebrew

Having the list written down means the DM can always point to paper saying "Sorry, not on the list".

Also, get the DM to practice this phrase -

"While I understand that is your opinion on how the rule works, for this game the rule works like this...Please respect my decision on this. If you don't agree with me, you can choose not to play with us. I won't take offense and we will still be friends."

[StreamOfTheSky]

So, what? Is he using Roll With It (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/roll-with-it-combat-goblin) feat, then? Did the DM approve it?

[Starbuck_II]

So, what? Is he using Roll With It (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/roll-with-it-combat-goblin) feat, then? Did the DM approve it?

That was my first thought. It isn't third party, but unless he has another feat that lets him count as Goblin (humans can take that feat), he can't qualify.

[StreamOfTheSky]

That was my first thought. It isn't third party, but unless he has another feat that lets him count as Goblin (humans can take that feat), he can't qualify.

Well, PF has a feat to let a human count as another humanoid race, too...

[weckar]

Well, PF has a feat to let a human count as another humanoid race, too...

For personal reference, what feat is that?

[StreamOfTheSky]

For personal reference, what feat is that?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/racial-feats/racial-heritage

[I3igAl]

So he argued again that it is the reason the skill is picked. I disagred, because I am using the skill to get behind enemies (jumping above them), to do not cause AoOs, and this guy here thinks he can actually deny damage by having a FREE d20+Dex+Tumble+2(Jump 5+)? That is just insane... But he argued that he found a feat that allowed him to use that skill to avoid getting hit (dirty trick), we asked WHERE he got that feat, and he answered: Pathfinder.

Other players have already shown you those two feat, therefore i will not discuss them. Both don't let him get behin the enemy, since THERE ARE NO FACING RULES in 3.x or Pathfinder for that matter.


I think the problem is, the player could want a more realistic less abstract approach to combat. And D&d/Pathfinder might just be the wrong system for him. Maybe he isn't that much about trolling you guys more about wanting combat to work differently.

[Tohsaka Rin]

I3igAl, I think you've misunderstood something.

The OP uses tumble to get into position to flank.

The object of his/our (collective) ire, wants to use tumble to be Neo from The Matrix.

The guy isn't asking for more realistic combat, he wants an 'I win' button, and a 'nuh-uh, you missed me' button.

[eggynack]

The guy isn't asking for more realistic combat, he wants an 'I win' button, and a 'nuh-uh, you missed me' button.
Well, to be fair, he could easily get both of those things as a wizard. That's the true tragedy here, that he's trying to pull a plethora of tricks out of a class with only a tiny handbag's worth, when there are other classes with all of those tricks and more a stone's throw away. It might even be worth giving him that pitch, the almighty power that comes from using the real rules instead of made up ones. He may find tha what the actual game provides exceeds his greatest imaginings.

[Tohsaka Rin]

Yeah, except he doesn't seem to care to actually learn how to play.

That, or he assumes he knows better than these lunkheads who think they understand the game, but he's the REAL master.

...Now I want to punch something.

[RedMage125]

I think the real bottom line, OP is this:

This problem player of yours is CHEATING.

Games in which one of the players cheats are made less fun for the rest of the group, especially when they are all playing by the rules. I've been in a game with a cheater when I was younger. One of the players (fat, middle aged guy who always played hot elf chicks and expected free in-game benefits by acting like a floozy), would always roll his dice on a hardcover book he held with one hand in front of his chest. The rest of us rolled on the table. He would roll onto is book, and 4 out of 5 times would announce "critical threat!", and snatch up the die before anyone else could see it*. He would then roll a confirmation roll immediately.

I spoke with the other players, and they had an issue with it, too, but no one had spoken with the DM. So I did. I was the youngest of the group by far, but that didn't stop me. I spoke with the DM, and he offered to speak with the player about rolling in the open, because we were feeling like he was cheating.

Far be it from me to complain if his dice are actually THAT lucky. It only helps the party after all, but even the feeling that a fellow player is cheating when you play by the rules makes you feel as if your own efforts are cheapened. As it turns out, his dice were NOT that lucky (or maybe rolling on his book was, but more likely he was, in fact cheating), because once he started rolling out in the open, his overwhelming number of critical hits drastically went down.

*Which confounds me, personally. When I roll a nat. 20, I have at least someone else check it out. Gets people pretty excited.

You need to have a talk with your DM, outside of the game. I cannot stress this enough. Do NOT bog down everyone's game time with this kind of thing. It especially helps if some of the other players feel the same way, and it's clear to the DM that it's a majority opinion. Maybe the DM can talk to him, because clearly, you talking to him player-to-player has accomplished SQUAT. If he cannot bring himself to play without cheating, then he's got serious issues. Some people just have such fragile egos that they just "must" be the best, or "win", even when playing a cooperative game. Perhaps if it's explained to him how his cheating is making everyone else feel about playing with him, he'll throttle back.

If that doesn't work, then very little else will. And then you're faced with the binary choice of A) Deal With It; or B) Leave the game.

[animewatcha]

Any chance you can just ignore the 'Neo rolls' and everytime he tries to do 'Neo' crap or 'arrow to the head' crap or the like, he loses his turn. Reason: He ****ed up and needs to abide the rules. Miss enough turns and maybe he will start to stop screwing up.

[Dorian Gray]

Also, aside from having a prerequisite and the fact that that feat doesn't work with tumble... it can only be used 3+dex mod times per day. So if he has a slightly above average dex score, he can use that feat perhaps 4 times per day.