Tier 3 System - Cleric

[tricktroller]

Ok folks, so I sort of finished up the cleric build, I haven't done the clerical duties because I am not sure if I am keeping those in the system. So this is my rehash of the cleric. Major changes include;
Turn Undead at 3rd
No spontaneous cure/inflict
Reduced Spell list
5 domains over 20 levels
Makes the Heal skill useful.

So I know that not everyone is going to like this, in fact I am sure most people are going to hate some of the changes. If you don't like it, please explain why and give an idea for how you would like to see it changed. Telling me that its stupid is not an appropriate, nor helpful statement.

I feel that with the class features that help with healing the lack of spontaneous healing shouldn't be a problem. The additional uses for the heal skill also help with the problem of healing and make the skill actually useful.

[Composer99]

In your re-build of the cleric, how do domains interact with the spell list?

Am I correct in assuming that your future posts on this thread will include the details of the changes you indicate are included?

[tricktroller]

T3 Cleric (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3F0Mxn2oIzNcDMzUmlucHkyQkk/edit)

Lol sorry about that I totally thought I linked that here.

The domains add a spell to your list of spells known.

Cleric Spell List (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3F0Mxn2oIzNZGNNSWJsRzdKYWM/edit)

The spell list has been drastically reduced.

[Stella]

Initial thoughts:


Dual Favored Enemy seems to have slipped in inadvertently. It isn't listed on the cleric table but appears in the Class Features list.

This is purely a fluff critique, but Mettle should probably be reworded. "Mettle: You can resist magical attacks with greater effectiveness than other warriors." All Clerics are not warriors, and something along the lines of "Mettle: Your deity aids you in resisting magical attacks" might be more appropriate.

Hands of the Healer - I'd suggest moving this down in level acquired. You allow this ability to provide the effect of Lesser Restoration, but that spell does not exist on your Cleric Spell List. Somewhere you'll need to define this effect and the level it counts as for purposes of the DC. All the other effects have remained on the Cleric spell list. Also "The Heal Check DC is equal to10 + the spells level x5" appears to refer to the spell being 'defaulted to', but the phrasing could cause confusion. I suggest a clearer phrasing and/or an example to eliminate the potential for confusion.

"Supernatural Healer - When making a heal check to heal hit point damage you roll double the number of dice you normally roll. 1d4 = 2d4, 3d4 = 6d4, etc."
The Heal skill does not involve dice rolls (other than the DC roll) when healing hit point damage.

Veteran Chirurgeon and a fixed version of Supernatural Healer - These come at 14th and 15th level, long after the point when they will be of much use due to cheap healing magics being readily accessible at those levels to all characters. I suggest moving the levels where they are acquired well down, to something like 4th and 5th.

Positive/Negative Energy Burst - An 18D6 (at the level this is acquired) damage effect with a radius of 100 feet seems a bit excessive. I suggest a reduced radius.

[tricktroller]

Under the T3 system main thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?355789-Tier-3-System-Condensed) I listed the change to heal

Heal: Normal heal rules+ You can heal 1d4 points of damage with a successful DC 15 heal check. For every 5 points you beat the DC beyond 15 you cure an additional 1d4 points of damage. This heal check may only be performed on someone once per encounter.

I totally missed the dual favored enemies haha, sneaky rangers finding their way into other classes.

I agree the effects of Supernatural Healer and Veteran Chirurgeon come along way too late to be of much use I just didn't really know where to put them.

Lesser Resto is a 2nd level cleric spell......

18d6 is roughly 60 -70 points of damage for two turn attempts, but if that is too powerful because of its radius I suppose making it a 30 foot radius would drop its power level back in line a bit.

[Stella]

Under the T3 system main thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?355789-Tier-3-System-Condensed) I listed the change to heal

Heal: Normal heal rules+ You can heal 1d4 points of damage with a successful DC 15 heal check. For every 5 points you beat the DC beyond 15 you cure an additional 1d4 points of damage. This heal check may only be performed on someone once per encounter.I hadn't noticed your change to the Heal skill. You might consider adding a cross-reference to the classes where they have abilities which tie into changed skills. And also Feats, when/if you publish an updated list.


Lesser Resto is a 2nd level cleric spell......Ah. That'll teach me to do a search on Lesser Restoration when it's actually Restoration, Lesser. But you shouldn't be using the wrong term in the explanation of Hands of the Healer, either.


18d6 is roughly 60 -70 points of damage for two turn attempts, but if that is too powerful because of its radius I suppose making it a 30 foot radius would drop its power level back in line a bit.I think a 30' radius would be much more reasonable. Really the abuse of this class ability lies with the part which allows evil Clerics to get a 100' radius Fireball vs. all living creatures 3 times a day for one Feat spent on Extra Turning. Plus another 1-2 uses if the Cleric has a moderate CHA bonus, and of course another 2 uses for each additional time Extra Turning is taken. It's just way too much compared to the same effect which only harms undead.

Turning or Rebuking has a fairly balanced effect between good and evil Clerics, while Positive/Negative Energy Burst does not, and not by a very large margin. The range wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue if the Negative effect only applied to Commanding/Dispelling Turning/Bolstering undead instead of damaging all living creatures.

[tricktroller]

What if I made it 1d6 per 2 levels? That would reduce it to being a fireball, I could make it say all all non good targets and non evil targets so that neutral party members wouldn't get blapped by the cleric when he blows the enemy up?

So it would read

Positive/Negative Energy Burst: As a standard action, a cleric can create a positive or negative energy

burst that deals 1d6 points of damage per 2 class level to all targeted non-good creatures (for positive), or all non-evil

creatures (for negative) within 100 feet of the character. Creatures are allowed a Reflex save (DC equal

to 10 + Class Level) to avoid half the damage. This supernatural ability uses up two turning attempts. A

cleric cannot use this ability if he has fewer than two turning attempts left for the day.

[tricktroller]

actually how would you work the idea you posited at the end there?

[Stella]

I'd do something like this:


Positive/Negative Energy Burst: Once per day as a standard action, a good aligned cleric (or any non-good cleric who turns undead) can create a positive energy burst that deals 1d6 points of damage per two class levels to all undead creatures within 60 feet of the character. Undead who are not killed by this effect must make a reflex save or flee the cleric with the same effect and duration as turn undead. An evil cleric (or any cleric who rebukes undead) creates a negative energy burst instead. The negative energy burst commands all undead within the area who have less current hit points than the amount rolled by the cleric. Undead who are not commanded by this effect must make a reflex save or cower with the same effect and duration as rebuke. Unlike rebuke undead, the command effect has no limit on the number of hit dice of undead which can be commanded, and does not count against the cleric's limit for commanding undead using the rebuke undead ability. The negative energy burst will also dispel all turn effects within the radius and will bolster already commanded undead within the effect by reducing any turn effect by 1 level per die of effect. You don’t need line of sight to a target, but you do need line of effect. Total cover blocks the effect.


This will give a good aligned cleric a 9D6 fireball effect against undead at the level the ability is gained, for ~32 points of damage done to all undead in the area, which can destroy more than the ~25 hit dice of undead that they can destroy via turn. It also doesn't bleed off the effect against the closest undead first, which "yea olde army of undead" forces by sending in the pawns and leaving the commanders behind the lines.

For the evil cleric it allows them to command a veritable army of undead, which the current rebuke undead ability does not allow due to the hit die limitation on the command effect. And it's still an effective weapon against "yea olde army of undead" via controlling large numbers to use against the rest and by causing the rest to save or cower.

It's wordy, but I didn't put a lot of time into it and it could probably be pared down to make it more succinct. The negative ability could easily lose the turn dispel and bolster abilities to both reduce complexity and to bring it more in line with the power level of the positive effect.