Animate Dead example with a Slaad

[PapaEmeritusII]

So recently in one of my campaigns we ran into some Slaad creatures and I of course animated the 10 hd gray slaad into a Zombie and the 15hd Death Slaad into a Skeleton. Both were created with the help of a Desecrate spell (evil party so I have to pay for a fellow party member to cast it...worth it). So I have scoured the internet, monster manual, etc for the ways to correctly construct these undead and it has been challenging to say the least. I have a general understanding of how this works but never saw a concrete example that made sense. I have made a spreadsheet to create a zombie or skeleton and want to make sure it is accurate. First a couple quick assumptions:

1. If I animated anything with class levels they drop to 1, so a lvl billion ranger would turn into a pretty worthless 1HD skeleton/2HD zombie.
2. Skeletons are better in melee but zombies (suffer from single actions only...but can charge) make better tanks. Also once you fight 10HD+ creatures, its skeletons all the way (by rule and by power).

Anyways on the to undead!

Gray Slaad Zombie

Size (Medium)
20HD (base 10*2)
173 Hit Points (20hd.....10hd at 6 rolls and 10 at 7 rolls, which is how my DM told me to calc this + 40 HP from desecrate...20hd*2 +3 from toughness feat)
Speed 30 ft (base creature)
Initiative 2 (dex mod)
AC14 (2 dex mod, 2 zombie size natural armor)
Base Attack 10 (HD/2)

Attacks (I am still somewhat confused here)
Gains a slam (+15 to attack.....1d6 damage)
Retains all natural weapons (Gets confusing here)
Claw +15 (2d4+5)....or do I reduce this to the zombie's damage at that size 1d4 (that would make me a sad panda)
Claw +10 (2d4+5)
Bite +10 (2d8+2)

Abilities
Base:
STR: 19
DEX: 17
CON: 21
INT: 14
WIS: 14
CHA: 14

Zombified
STR: 21
DEX: 15
CON: --
INT: --
WIS: 10
CHA: 1

Saves (Really confused here)
When I first made these guys I just applied the formulas in the monster manual to the saves. Late last night I got thinking about this and I do not feel my Undead should have saves over 20 at this point....which is what they came out to...

So....Gray Slaad's saves from Monster Manual (12 Fort, 10 Ref, 9 Will). If I apply the formulas (Fort=Fort+1/3HD....Ref=Ref+1/3HD..... Will=Will+1/2HD+2) it would come out a whopping (Fort 25, Ref 23,Will 31). That does not seem right.

Last night I started to think that you add the base MODIFIER, not the total score. So with that it would have base scores of Fort 5, Ref 3, Will 2...so after Zombification (Fort 18, Ref 16, Will 24)

Other Stuff
Looses all skills, feats, non-extraordinary abilities, feats, resistances, etc. Gain Toughness feat, Dam Red. 5/Slashing, Darkvision 60ft and undead traits.


Lastly, with the Death Slaad Skeleton, I assume he retains the Stun ability because it is an extraordinary ability that improves his melee.

[Smorgonoffz]

You shouldn't have been able to animate the slaad as zombies, because they're outsiders and their corpses disappear when they die.

Also if it's problematic to stat them, why don't you ask the Dm's help?

[Pan151]

The saves of the original creature are irrelevant. You instead use the save formula for undead. For a 20HD slaad zombie, after ability modifiers, you'd end up with 6 Fort, 8 Ref, 12 Will.

Edit: Slaad cannot become zombies in the first place, as the above poster pointed out. If they weren't outsiders, however, you would end up with the above numbers.

[Starmage21]

Saves are going to be recalculated according to the Undead type or zombie template, whichever is laid out. Since the zombie template lays this out we've got:

20HD Zombie:
Fort: +6 base
Ref: +6 base +/- DEX
Will: +12 base +0 WIS

Examples in the SRD do not show the poor CHA score of the zombie affecting the Fortitude save in a negative manner, but a low dex did penalize Reflex.

See the Grey Render zombie as an example
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/zombie.htm

[PapaEmeritusII]

I have been asking the DMs help but being a campaign of 7 people and real life responsibilities get in the way (rightfully so...not begrudging him of this) and I am not sure he has a better understanding of zombie/skeleton templates.

Crap....no animation of Outsiders? Just to double check...pulled this online for Outsider type. "Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature; its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be."

Not sure what book that is pulled from but it does not specifically say can not be "animated". Also do not see any reference to the body disappearing. If the body (or skeletal structure) does not disappear I do not see any issue? I am sure the two responses are right but just playing devil's advocate here. Literally been playing 4 months so....yea.

Ok saves....if I understand what has been said....you basically throw out the base creatures saves and go with the formula in the monster manual. So some examples....

6hd Zombie (with 14 Dex)
Fort 2, Ref 4, Will 5

10hd Zombie (with 8 Dex)
Fort 3, Ref 2, Will 7

15hd zombie (with 20 Dex)
Fort 5, Ref 10, Will 9

20hd Zombie (with 23 Dex)
Fort 6, Ref 12, Will12

Pretty sure these are right and thanks for the clarification. What about the attack damage for the natural weapons? Does it retain the damage from the base creature (ie 2d6) or is it whatever the zombie would deal for that size.?

Thanks gain for the help.

[Starmage21]

They retain their existing damage, UNLESS that damage was enhanced by a feat (Improved Natural Attack). Since zombies lose feats, their damage would scale down IF they had that feat. Otherwise, retained.

[Bluydee]

People saying you can't animate them are wrong. The text states skeleton can be added to any corporeal creature, such as an outsider. Libris Mortis even shows examples of outsider skeletons. Animating is different than raising or resurrecting.

[PapaEmeritusII]

People saying you can't animate them are wrong. The text states skeleton can be added to any corporeal creature, such as an outsider. Libris Mortis even shows examples of outsider skeletons. Animating is different than raising or resurrecting.

Yea I did some more research and unless they are banished when they die I believe it is OK to animate them. The soul is irrelevant. Given the fact that we were able to loot the Slaads, I am assuming they do not get banished.

Final questions:

1. Did I read the rules right that a animated Death Slaad would keep its extraordinary ability of Stun/3 times per day since it improves its melee attack?
2. Any reason an animated undead can not wear armor and hold a martial weapon? I have a +2 spell storing long sword that is worthless to my sorcerer but could be nice in the hands on one of my minions.
3. If yes to #2 I assume I can use them as a packmule based on their str?

I will post the final figures for the zombie gray slaad and the skeleton death slaad later in case someone else needs the templates.

[Zombimode]

173 Hit Points (20hd.....10hd at 6 rolls and 10 at 7 rolls, which is how my DM told me to calc this + 40 HP from desecrate...20hd*2 +3 from toughness feat)

Monsters typically get average hit points. The average for a d12 is 6.5, so the base HP are 20*6.5, discarding any fractions (there are none in this case). That is a bit more accurate than saying "10 times 6 plus 10 times 7". A minor nitpick, if anything.


AC14 (2 dex mod, 2 zombie size natural armor)

A Gray Slaad has a natural armor bonus of +11. The zombie template increases that number by an amount depending on the base creature's size. In the case the natural armor increases by +2 for a total of +13. So the AC is definitely not 14.


Attacks (I am still somewhat confused here)
Gains a slam (+15 to attack.....1d6 damage)
Retains all natural weapons (Gets confusing here)
Claw +15 (2d4+5)....or do I reduce this to the zombie's damage at that size 1d4 (that would make me a sad panda)
Claw +10 (2d4+5)
Bite +10 (2d8+2)


The Gray Slaad's bab is +10. It also has a Strength score of 21. It looses its Weapon Focus (claw) feat.

That means it has a +15 attack bonus with any of its natural weapons when making a single attack. Since as a zombie it can only make a single attack, additional natural weapons besides its most powerful one are pointless. The most powerful natural weapon would be its bite, but an argument could be made that the zombie uses the primary natural weapon (claw) of the base creature for its attacks.


Saves (Really confused here)
When I first made these guys I just applied the formulas in the monster manual to the saves. Late last night I got thinking about this and I do not feel my Undead should have saves over 20 at this point....which is what they came out to...

So....Gray Slaad's saves from Monster Manual (12 Fort, 10 Ref, 9 Will). If I apply the formulas (Fort=Fort+1/3HD....Ref=Ref+1/3HD..... Will=Will+1/2HD+2) it would come out a whopping (Fort 25, Ref 23,Will 31). That does not seem right.

I'm quite confused at how you would arrive at such conclusion. The template state to recalculate the creatures saves. Since it is now an undead with 20 HD, it gets good will saves and poor reflex and fort saves. You can ie. reference the wizard table for that: the base saves are: Fort +6, Reflex +6, Will +12.
The Fort save wont be modified, so it will stay at +6, Reflex gets boosted to +8 and Will stays at +12.


Lastly, with the Death Slaad Skeleton, I assume he retains the Stun ability because it is an extraordinary ability that improves his melee.

No. As per the description of the skeleton template, the templated creature looses all special attacks. The Death Slaad's Stun ability is qualified as a Special Attack by its statblock.

[PapaEmeritusII]

A Gray Slaad has a natural armor bonus of +11. The zombie template increases that number by an amount depending on the base creature's size. In the case the natural armor increases by +2 for a total of +13. So the AC is definitely not 14.

Ok this is why I calculated AC as 14. From the monsters manual:
"Armor Class: Natural armor bonus changes to a number based on the zombie's/skeleton’s size: (table)"
The original creature, in this case a gray slaad, has +11 natural armor it changes to +2 (medium size). +2 more from its dex resulting in 14. If it stacks with the base creatures AC happy day, but the word changes has me stuck. I also read a forum about a guy complaining that his animated giant turtle had a crappy AC because it lost its original natural armor through the transformation.



The Gray Slaad's bab is +10. It also has a Strength score of 21. It looses its Weapon Focus (claw) feat.

That means it has a +15 attack bonus with any of its natural weapons when making a single attack. Since as a zombie it can only make a single attack, additional natural weapons besides its most powerful one are pointless. The most powerful natural weapon would be its bite, but an argument could be made that the zombie uses the primary natural weapon (claw) of the base creature for its attacks.

I agree the bite probably will not be allowed and its only at +10 because of the loss of multiattack.



I'm quite confused at how you would arrive at such conclusion. The template state to recalculate the creatures saves. Since it is now an undead with 20 HD, it gets good will saves and poor reflex and fort saves. You can ie. reference the wizard table for that: the base saves are: Fort +6, Reflex +6, Will +12.
The Fort save wont be modified, so it will stay at +6, Reflex gets boosted to +8 and Will stays at +12.

Welcome to the last 24 hours of my life. Quite confused is an understatement, but I believe the last post I made has the correct calculations. Use the HD as mentioned in monster manual 1/3HD=Fort, 1/3HD=Ref, 12/HD+2=Will. Then because the only ability score that has any effect is DEX (no con score and wis is always 10...+0) add the dex mod to your reflex save and done.


No. As per the description of the skeleton template, the templated creature looses all special attacks. The Death Slaad's Stun ability is qualified as a Special Attack by its statblock.

If not, then what qualifies for a extraordinary ability that an newly animated zombie/skeleton could use? From monster manual:

"Special Qualities: A zombie/skeleton loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks."

I guess the stun doesn't necessary improve its melee attacks, but it does make them more versatile.

[Urpriest]

If not, then what qualifies for a extraordinary ability that an newly animated zombie/skeleton could use? From monster manual:

"Special Qualities: A zombie/skeleton loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks."

I guess the stun doesn't necessary improve its melee attacks, but it does make them more versatile.

Special Qualities and Special Attacks are not the same thing. Does that answer your question?

[PapaEmeritusII]

Special Qualities and Special Attacks are not the same thing. Does that answer your question?
Oh....yes it does. (feeling stupid for quoting the answer myself...)

So for example a whisper gnome gets attack bonuses against goblinoids and kobolds...that should stay if you animated one right?

[Zombimode]

Ok this is why I calculated AC as 14. From the monsters manual:
"Armor Class: Natural armor bonus changes to a number based on the zombie's/skeleton’s size: (table)"
The original creature, in this case a gray slaad, has +11 natural armor it changes to +2 (medium size). +2 more from its dex resulting in 14. If it stacks with the base creatures AC happy day, but the word changes has me stuck. I also read a forum about a guy complaining that his animated giant turtle had a crappy AC because it lost its original natural armor through the transformation.

This is not what is stated in the description. Let me quote:

Armor Class: Natural armor bonus increases by a number based on the zombie's size:
Monster Manual, page 266, first sentence on the page.



I agree the bite probably will not be allowed and its only at +10 because of the loss of multiattack.

Multiattack has no bearing in this since all zombies can only make one attack per round anyway.

[PapaEmeritusII]

This is not what is stated in the description. Let me quote:

Monster Manual, page 266, first sentence on the page.




Multiattack has no bearing in this since all zombies can only make one attack per round anyway.

Sorry you are right. I was looking at the skeleton page (closer to slaads...), where it does say change. Zombies do get the increase which is what the original post called for. So skeleton changes and zombies add. My assumption was it was the same for zombies without checking. (dumb)

Also, I forgot to mention before, I appreciate the nitpick on the Hit Points. Making a spreadsheet skeleton/zombie builder and that will help.

[hoboinacan]

I know I'm late to the party but an example of a special quality that zombies and skeletons retain would be an ettin's superior two-weapon fighting (MM 107).

I believe the gnome racials would also apply as well since the templates say they retain subtype (gnome) unless it's an alignment.

[Inevitability]

I know I'm late to the party but an example of a special quality that zombies and skeletons retain would be an ettin's superior two-weapon fighting (MM 107).

I believe the gnome racials would also apply as well since the templates say they retain subtype (gnome) unless it's an alignment.

Ah, the delicious irony of having someone commit necromancy... in a thread about necromancy.

[atemu1234]

Ah, the delicious irony of having someone commit necromancy... in a thread about necromancy.

Yo dawg....

[ShurikVch]

You shouldn't have been able to animate the slaad as zombies, because they're outsiders and their corpses disappear when they die. Libris Mortis have examples of Hound Archon Zombie, Vrock Zombie, and Glabrezu Skeleton.

Also, there is a Demonflesh golem in Fiend Folio. It made of dead demon.