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View Full Version : Binders: Yay, or Nay?



bingo_bob
2007-02-24, 05:09 PM
As you can probably tell by the title, this thread is all about the Binder class. More specifically, what people on this board think of the class mechanics-wise, and flavor-wise.

I personally love the class. It was pretty much THE reason I bought tome of Magic (at the time, shadowcasters just confused me, and I still dislike the truename system). The flavor seems pretty spot on, I'd say, and the vestiges are given a fair bit of depth.

And I'd say that it's a very mechanically balanced class, maybe slightly on the strong side, but certainly not weak. It's got a good variety of attack options (Focalor Lightning Bolts FTW!), plays well on defense, and has a nice scattering of miscellaneous abilities in between.
Granted, deciding which vestiges to bind can become a bit of a puzzler, as you're more or less stuck with with them for the rest of the day (unless you have Expel Vestige), and failing binding checks can really bite with all the weirdness in your behavior that'll cause, but really, I think that just adds to the fun of the class.

So, what do you think? (Please keep fluff and crunch opinions separate).

The_Snark
2007-02-24, 05:18 PM
I'm with you here. I like binders. They were the main reason I bought Tome of Magic also, and while shadowcasters have grown on me since, I still don't like truenaming much.

I think it's probably easier to play an eccentric binder than any other sort; when you have fangs and hooves one day, and are wrapped in darkness with a hollow voice the next, it's a lot easier to adapt to if the character was a little wierd to start with.

Statwise, I like them also; they can play a nice variety of roles, particularly once they get into multiple roles. Focalor is popular, I know, but I never much liked him, because the aura, from what I can tell, will nail your allies as well if they're adjacent. I like Aym for sundering fun, Zagan and Ronove for grappling, Malphas for stealth, and Tenebrous for... well, for whatever; being wrapped in your own personal 5-ft Deeper Darkness is nice for pretty much anyone. Buer's good as a second or third vestige, too. Balam is good, with a gaze attack and rerolls. Deciding which ones to bind can be tough, but after a while you get a feel for which ones work well together and which vestiges just aren't worth it.

It's fun in many ways because you'll never get tired of your abilities; the instant you do, you can say, "All right, today I'll try out.." and swap the character around. The only thing that bugs me is choosing feats; since you're playing multiple roles you can't specialize, so I usually go for binding-related feats, like Improved Binding and Expel Vestige.

PnP Fan
2007-02-24, 05:51 PM
I've used them as npc villains before, and they do okay. Mechanically, they're alright, though I find that when I use them as NPC's, I wind up just using a few specific vestiges. I do find the whole concept a little too creeeepy, I mean, letting some long dead, godlike being enter your body and share your body and soul with it, just so it can walk around a bit and feel what it's like to be "alive"? ew! This is one of the few classes that I reserve for NPCs. Not because it's too powerful, but because the kind of mentality required to willingly allow another soul to inhabit your body, in a creepy kind of Cthulu way is just not something I want to see a player do. I have a hard time imagining these characters as being anything but CN, NE, or CE in alignment. I know that's not what the rules say, but this seems to be one of those cases where the flavor text doesn't jive with the rule set. But that's just my opinion, and for the campaigns I run. Other people will probably have a different take on it. :-)

Arceliar
2007-02-24, 06:16 PM
Nay, on the grounds that it's yet another slight variation of the spellcasting system.

Psionics is semi-tolerable due to psionic-magic transparency, if it's the only alternate system in use. But once you start throwing in Incarnum, Combat Manuvers, and the 3 sub-systems in ToM, things get a bit out of hand. At least, I think so.

There's already magic. The system works fine, save for a few broken spells and the occasional metamagic abuse. I've never seen the reason to over complicate things by adding ToB and ToM to the picture, even if ToB helps offset the advantage casters get.

That being said, at least the binder class abilities are relatively balanced from what I've read, though I've never had one used in one of my games. Looks fairly benign compared to batman though.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-02-24, 06:35 PM
I've used them as npc villains before, and they do okay. Mechanically, they're alright, though I find that when I use them as NPC's, I wind up just using a few specific vestiges. I do find the whole concept a little too creeeepy, I mean, letting some long dead, godlike being enter your body and share your body and soul with it, just so it can walk around a bit and feel what it's like to be "alive"? ew! This is one of the few classes that I reserve for NPCs. Not because it's too powerful, but because the kind of mentality required to willingly allow another soul to inhabit your body, in a creepy kind of Cthulu way is just not something I want to see a player do. I have a hard time imagining these characters as being anything but CN, NE, or CE in alignment. I know that's not what the rules say, but this seems to be one of those cases where the flavor text doesn't jive with the rule set. But that's just my opinion, and for the campaigns I run. Other people will probably have a different take on it. :-)

Yeah, it's a pretty Voodoo class. The whole thing is pretty much based on what the Inquisition blaimed innocent old ladies of doing. But unless you've decieded that all Binders are members of an evil cult that wants to hates adventurers banning them is kind of stupid. I wouldn't throw them in with Savage Species' Ilithid Savant or Book of Vile Darkness' mortal hunter. Ends justify the means anti-heroes can be fun.

ImperiousLeader
2007-02-25, 09:22 AM
Binders are IMO, the best class out of ToM (despite I like the concept of Shadow Magic more, the Shadowcaster needs serious tweakage), but I've yet to play one. That said, how are they at low levels, when you can only bind a single vestige? It seems to me that their effectiveness really jumps once they can bind multiple vestiges.

Piedmon_Sama
2007-02-25, 12:59 PM
Yeah, it's a pretty Voodoo class. The whole thing is pretty much based on what the Inquisition blaimed innocent old ladies of doing. But unless you've decieded that all Binders are members of an evil cult that wants to hates adventurers banning them is kind of stupid. I wouldn't throw them in with Savage Species' Ilithid Savant or Book of Vile Darkness' mortal hunter. Ends justify the means anti-heroes can be fun.


I'd like to point out that most Voodun priests who do allow themselves to become possessed by Papa Ghede or whoever are probably not actually CE, NE or CN..... of course, the deities in Voodun are in favor of respect and decency like most religions and not eldritch beings from beyond space and time, I'm just saying that making yourself open for possession is not necissarily an "eeeeevil" tactic outside the western imagination....

PnP Fan
2007-02-26, 12:34 AM
Sama,
Y'know, that was an interesting reference to Voodoo that you and CS made. I honestly didn't even think of connecting the class to the ideas behind Voodoo. (And I'm from New Orleans!) It's just that, like Sama said, so many of the vestiges smack of just alien-ness, and most of the Voodoo spirits are more. . . earthy, in my understanding, and a little more human, that I never made the connection.
I'm sure there's an english major somewhere screaming in pain over my use of commas. . . and elipses . . . ;-)
But, like you point out, the voodoo spirits aren't there "just for the ride", they have a purpose to fulfill. I guess that's another part of what gives me the creeps about the class. But no, I would not put it in the same splatbook as the BoVD.

Ted_Stryker
2007-02-26, 12:45 AM
As you can probably tell by the title, this thread is all about the Binder class. More specifically, what people on this board think of the class mechanics-wise, and flavor-wise.
Not having the ToM, and being unfamiliar with it, I honestly thought the question was about 3-ring binders when I first read the thread title before clicking on the thread. :smallredface:

Returning you now to your regularly scheduled discussion...