Twf = mwf?

[Shafee]

How would you treat the special annotation for multi-weapon fighting that says "this feat replaces two-weapon fighting for creatures with more than two arms?" Why I'm wondering is that I'm interested in taking mwf over the course of my character and wouldn't want to waste feats on twf. For example, I take shape soulmeld(dragon tail), then prehensile tail to treat my tail as a hand. By doing so, would my two-weapon fighting feat, if I already have it, change to multi-weapon fighting? Would I then be able to progress down the mwf tree?

Would it be worth dropping 2 feats for the extra attacks on, say, a rogue with sneak attacks? I'm not sure, but it seems pretty extreme. It would take 5 feat slots to reach IMWF, which is about as high as the rogue would get(GMWF = 15 BAB), giving 2 additional attacks per off hand at -5 penalty. In contrast, the TWF tree can reach greater twf with just 3 feats, giving them 3 additional attacks, although that third is at -10.

Considering weapon finesse, that's 6 feats in the bucket. I'm not sure if its worth it, but it seems interesting.

[Ansem]

Usually creatures already start with multiattack feat as a racial bonus feat if they have multiple natural attacks.
So it's not really meant for the common PC race (Elves, Dwarves etc)

[Fouredged Sword]

If at some point your character gains the extra arms required for multi-weapon fighting, the feat retraining rules are what you need to retrain your two weapon fighting into multiweapon fighting. Basically, you loose a little exp, but get to reassign the feat.

[RedMage125]

However, if you belong to a race that naturally has more than 2 weapon-wielding limbs (such as a Thri-Kreen), and you find yourself in a position to acquire TWF (such as level 2 of Ranger, level 1 of Dread Pirte, etc.), you may instead choose MWF, as per the special tag under MWF.

So even for races that do not get Multiattack as a bonus feat, the special tag applies.

[Andion Isurand]

At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full.

Given that statement, I think its more than natural to allow a standard humanoid using a weapon in each hand, to use her body as a third weapon if she can. Indeed, I ascribe the same quality to Battle Dancers and Unarmed Swordsages or any class with similar features surrounding unarmed strikes.

So... I recently did a little brewing to both revise and merge the TWF and MWF feats, while reducing some of the dexterity requirements and the number of feats needed to get all your iterative attacks.

Off-Hand Fighting Feats (http://magerune.blogspot.com/2014/06/using-two-or-more-weapons.html)

[Wacky89]

If at some point your character gains the extra arms required for multi-weapon fighting, the feat retraining rules are what you need to retrain your two weapon fighting into multiweapon fighting. Basically, you loose a little exp, but get to reassign the feat.

this is simply not true, the feat retraining rules are in PHBII p. 194. It cost 50 gp and takes 2 weeks.
That must be some kind of homebrew you are using

[Shafee]

If at some point your character gains the extra arms required for multi-weapon fighting, the feat retraining rules are what you need to retrain your two weapon fighting into multiweapon fighting. Basically, you loose a little exp, but get to reassign the feat.

Well what I'm asking is whether or not it's worth going through the trouble and feats to actually obtain an extra hand by some means. In this case, it would end up taking 2 feats, which really just isn't worth the extra single attack I'd get.

[Talya]

Well what I'm asking is whether or not it's worth going through the trouble and feats to actually obtain an extra hand by some means. In this case, it would end up taking 2 feats, which really just isn't worth the extra single attack I'd get.

Keep in mind, if you had 4 arms, and two weapon fighting, you could instead dual weild a pair of two handed weapons. and get the full two-handed strength & power attack bonus on each.

[weckar]

Thats sounds really clunky, and I have no idea what it would look like. Totally RAW, though. Does that mean Spiders can technically wield 3 weapons as thf?
But yeah, thf spec on top of twf would be a lot more effective than mwf. That does imply that you can count one of those thf weapons as 'light' for some reason (not impossible, although light weapons cannot be wielded two-handed so there's your rules paradox), but you would in the end be best off with 3 hands: 2 for thf, one with an additional light weapon.

[Ruethgar]

Generally speaking, unless you are trying for Multitasking casting, TWF 2H weapons is probably going to be better than MWF 3 or 4 especially if you have to spend more resources to get an extra hand.

[Captnq]

Oh just get a 6-handed scissor sword. The free grapple more then makes up for the lack of multiple attacks.
Or buy it with Hornblade and you can wield it in one hand. How can you hold a 6-handed scissor sword in one hand?

Magic.

[Slithery D]

Another niche option for four armed builds is don't spend any feats, just carry a reach weapon and a normal two-hander, grow yourself for extra reach, and be able to threaten everything within (expanded reach)x2. Great if you can get Huge size plus other reach bonuses.

[Necroticplague]

Generally speaking, unless you are trying for Multitasking casting, TWF 2H weapons is probably going to be better than MWF 3 or 4 especially if you have to spend more resources to get an extra hand.

Multitasking for Warblades is pretty good as well. Blow through all your strikes in one round, have them ready to go on the next. Of course, multitasking has a whole lot of prerequisites, but it can be worth it.

Also, an ubercharger with pounce might find the damage is greater with 4 one-handed weapons. Though without pounce, the correct thing would be to mono-weild one axe with 4 hands (which as per SS, increases the amount of STR you add to its damage).

[Talya]

That does imply that you can count one of those thf weapons as 'light' for some reason (not impossible, although light weapons cannot be wielded two-handed so there's your rules paradox), but you would in the end be best off with 3 hands: 2 for thf, one with an additional light weapon.

Note that MWF does not have the clause in it about penalties being reduced further if weilding light weapons in your three "off hands." MWF is always at -4.

TWF with a pair of longswords (weilded as two handed weapons) could get by with Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, however.

[Curmudgeon]

However, if you belong to a race that naturally has more than 2 weapon-wielding limbs (such as a Thri-Kreen), and you find yourself in a position to acquire TWF (such as level 2 of Ranger, level 1 of Dread Pirte, etc.), you may must instead choose MWF, as per the special tag under MWF.
I fixed that for you. There's no option; the MWF feats replace the TWF feats if you have 3+ arms.

[Darrin]

Note that MWF does not have the clause in it about penalties being reduced further if weilding light weapons in your three "off hands." MWF is always at -4.


No. The MWF feat references the TWF rules in the combat section, which does say that if your offhand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2. The only difference between MWF and TWF is MWF has more than one offhand weapon.

You can can dual-wield a pair of two-handed weapons with four arms by using Dragonsplits (MMIV), Oversize TWF, or Agile Shield Fighter. Actually, it's a pair of one-handed weapons that you grip with two hands.

[Curmudgeon]

You can can dual-wield a pair of two-handed weapons with four arms by using Dragonsplits (MMIV)
How are you supposed to treat dragonsplits (light weapons) as two-handed? They have alternative grip options, not grips for use with two hands at once. Basically you grip a dragonsplit in the same place, but with either the short end or the long end toward your enemies. See the picture on Monster Manual IV page 149. There's only place for one hand to grasp the weapon; everything else is exposed edge.

[Darrin]

How are you supposed to treat dragonsplits (light weapons) as two-handed? They have alternative grip options, not grips for use with two hands at once. Basically you grip a dragonsplit in the same place, but with either the short end or the long end toward your enemies. See the picture on Monster Manual IV page 149. There's only place for one hand to grasp the weapon; everything else is exposed edge.

By the rules, the dragonsplit is a one-handed weapon. By the rules, you can grip any one-handed weapon with two hands. Show me the rule where it says you can't do this with a dragonsplit.

If you want to get persnickety about how you grip certain silly weapons in D&D, the dragonsplit is hardly the first weapon I'd have issues with.

[Curmudgeon]

By the rules, the dragonsplit is a one-handed weapon. By the rules, you can grip any one-handed weapon with two hands. Show me the rule where it says you can't do this with a dragonsplit.
Oh, you can grip it with two hands; you can do that with most weapons (the rapier being an explicit exception). It just doesn't do much for you. From page 151 of Monster Manual IV:

It counts as a light weapon for the purpose of Two-Weapon Fighting and Weapon Finesse. You're proposing to use Two-Weapon Fighting (replaced by Multi-Weapon Fighting), so it instead counts as a light weapon.
Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder’s primary hand only.

[Flickerdart]

One could certainly envision a character placing the second hand over top of the first when gripping the weapon. You might think that's a stupid way to wield it, but look at how it's wielded in the illustration! It's even more stupid there.

[Darrin]

You're proposing to use Two-Weapon Fighting (replaced by Multi-Weapon Fighting), so it instead counts as a light weapon.

It only counts as a light weapon for TWF and Weapon Finesse. For all other purposes, it's a one-handed weapon. And the TWF rules are only used to calculate attack penalties. The TWF rules don't mention anything about damage. If the designer wanted to treat them as light weapons for any purpose outside of the two feats mentioned, then the text would be worded differently. Dragonsplits do not become light weapons for all purposes when you use them for TWF or Weapon Finesse. Those two feats are only used to calculate your attack bonus/penalties.

But that's not really the biggest headache for dragonsplits. The real headscratcher is what do they cost.