Summoning fey for fun and profit

[eggynack]

So, I was looking through the Kingdoms of Kalamar player's guide, which seems to be a first party book (albeit one written by a third party), when I came across the spell summon fey on page 188. Basically, you can cast the spell at any level, and you get a fey with HD equal to or less than the level you cast it at for minutes/level. My first thought was doing the same stuff that fey ring does, except better and worse in certain ways (no cost, you can hit differently sized creatures, you can cast it at lower level, except creatures scale out really fast), when I realized, screw that, pixies are a thing.

Basically, long story short, druids now have everything from dispel magic to permanent image to detect thoughts to charm person (from grigs), all as a first level spell, and a bunch of stuff besides. That's insane, to put it succinctly. Some of this stuff isn't usually all that available to druids at all, and now they can do it better than just about anyone in existence. I haven't researched this one fully, mostly because I just came off the search for fey ring stuff, but I probably will now, and there's a lot of room for awesome in the meantime. I suppose the big question is whether this book is actually 3.5 legal, though my research says that it is, and the secondary question is whether it's awesome, and my heart says that it is also that.

[Muggins]

It's not considered legal in Iron Chef because of the whole "written by a third party" thing, but that's not a global rule. If your DM (or you, if you're the DM) says that it's legal because it's got that WotC stamp of approval, then it's legal. If your DM rules otherwise, it's not.

I don't actually own Kingdoms of Kalamar, so I don't have access to the spell in question. As you've noted, however, it seems broken. Use with caution.

[Larkas]

"Legality", specially in this day and age, changes pretty much from table to table. Remember: the game has been out of print for 7 years now, anything to further expand it must come from 3rd party.

That said, let's examine a couple of scenarios: core only, 1st party only and endorsed by WotC only. In the first, this book is obviously banned. In the second, it certainly is too, as even stuff like Dragon and Ravenloft are not considered 1st party. In the third, however, you have some room for argument. Why does the book carry the D&D logo? Find the answer to that, and you may have a case for allowing said book.

Thankfully, I don't work with such rigid limitations. Show me whatever it is you wish to use and I'll tell you if it will fly on my table or not. That means you can even bring homebrew to my games, if I judge it balanced. It also means I reserve myself the right to ban 1st party, and even core, stuff. That spell? Yeah, it wouldn't fly in my games, though other things in the same book might.

[dysprosium]

From what I understand of the situation, the Kingdoms of Kalamar has a WotC logo on it because of some kind of settlement from a legal issue that stemmed around the setting itself. People can come here and correct/add information to that for clarification.

The spell you describe is quite powerful yes, but the book itself is known for other ridiculously broken items. Check out Irresistible Spell--metamagic feat that cancels out all saving throws and spell resistance all for the low cost of four spell levels higher.

[eggynack]

The spell you describe is quite powerful yes, but the book itself is known for other ridiculously broken items. Check out Irresistible Spell--metamagic feat that cancels out all saving throws and spell resistance all for the low cost of four spell levels higher.
My understanding is that irresistible spell was later altered by some method such that it is currently only a +10 to the save DC. The feat also definitely doesn't cancel SR. It's actually that feat's use in optimization advice (particularly the handbook "metamagic and you: a thesis", along with arbitrary forum mention) that guided me to the book in the first place in search of druid optimization stuff.

[dysprosium]

Didn't know about the alteration and not canceling spell resistance. That's what I get for listening to information secondhand. :smallredface:

[Darrin]

From what I understand of the situation, the Kingdoms of Kalamar has a WotC logo on it because of some kind of settlement from a legal issue that stemmed around the setting itself. People can come here and correct/add information to that for clarification.


It had to do with the Dragon Magazine CDROM and the copyright for Knights of the Dinner Table comics. WotC didn't have the right to reproduce it on the CDROM. Dave Kenzer filed a lawsuit, but rather than sue for damages he negotiated a separate license deal outside of the SRD/d20 licenses. It gave Kenzer & Co. the right to use the 1st party logos, as if they were WotC products.

So legally they are 1st party books. In actual practice, most people consider them 3rd party because WotC didn't have a lot of editorial control. Nor has WotC ever provided any direct support for Kingdoms of Kalamar.

As part of the settlement, Kenzer also secured a license for 1st Edition AD&D, which allowed them to develop Hackmaster from a running gag into a full-blown RPG. So... Needless to say, Dave Kenzer is a very smart dude.

[Phelix-Mu]

It had to do with the Dragon Magazine CDROM and the copyright for Knights of the Dinner Table comics. WotC didn't have the right to reproduce it on the CDROM. Dave Kenzer filed a lawsuit, but rather than sue for damages he negotiated a separate license deal outside of the SRD/d20 licenses. It gave Kenzer & Co. the right to use the 1st party logos, as if they were WotC products.

So legally they are 1st party books. In actual practice, most people consider them 3rd party because WotC didn't have a lot of editorial control. Nor has WotC ever provided any direct support for Kingdoms of Kalamar.

As part of the settlement, Kenzer also secured a license for 1st Edition AD&D, which allowed them to develop Hackmaster from a running gag into a full-blown RPG. So... Needless to say, Dave Kenzer is a very smart dude.

Anyone that can beat WotC at their own legal game has my immediate and almost unconditional respect.

That said, there are a few other things that fall into this grey space, to the best of my knowledge:

- Some of the Dragonlance materials released in 3e have the stamp.

- Athas.org material was given the rights to be an official source of Dark Sun materials for 3.5 (not sure if they secured this back in 3e, but it seems to me it must have been so).

[Mr Adventurer]

To determine the amount of respect that should be afforded to the Kingdoms of Kalamar rules, look at the Bandit base class BAB progression.

Then look at its design and class features.

Then look at the Muse PrC.

[eggynack]

- Some of the Dragonlance materials released in 3e have the stamp.

My understanding is that it's just dragonlance campaign setting that qualifies as first party, for some reason. This stuff is weird.

To determine the amount of respect that should be afforded to the Kingdoms of Kalamar rules, look at the Bandit base class BAB progression.

Then look at its design and class features.

Then look at the Muse PrC.
I'm not really sure what you're saying here, particularly because I don't know where the bandit is. I mean, the muse definitely isn't too powerful, so I've gotta assume that the claim is ridiculously underpowered, in which case I've definitely seen worse, poor design, in which case the same applies, or sheer awesomeness, in which case I've definitely seen better. It just looks like a perfectly average and unassuming little PrC.

[nedz]

I take it you are familiar with Wild Soul (Complete Mage p84). You've been able to summon Fey for quite some time with this PrC. 3/day plus more with Summon Monster conversions — which is not so good for Druids I suppose.

[eggynack]

I take it you are familiar with Wild Soul (Complete Mage p84). You've been able to summon Fey for quite some time with this PrC. 3/day plus more with Summon Monster conversions — which is not so good for Druids I suppose.
I can't say I've seen it, no. It doesn't seem to have the stuff that makes this so ridiculous, which is mostly that you're capable of tossing out stuff like permanent image, dispel magic, and maybe irresistible dance, all at level one, along with few other interesting options accessible through creatures from OA (einsung nat is sweet). That class is definitely somewhat interesting, though hindered somewhat by a lost caster level, but it seems to be a different sort of thing.

[Phelix-Mu]

I always thought this game (D&D 3e, specifically) gave short shrift to fey. They cobbled together a bunch of things that go bump in the night and weren't obviously something else, especially the beautiful, seducy-type ones, and put them in the same box. Which is unfortunate, because they thematically ignored some of the best and most interesting options for this category from mythology (usually because those types were too powerful or ill-defined).

That said, some of the lower HD fey are absurdly strong, particularly anything that rhymes with fairies. Conversely, and rather fascinatingly, many of the most powerful fey experience huge HD inflation (frostwind virago jumps to mind), ostensibly to compensate for their horrendous HP and BAB.

Does this spell speed up access to the oread, by any chance?

[eggynack]

Does this spell speed up access to the oread, by any chance?
Nah, it slows it down. The oread has 7 HD, which makes for a 7th level spell, in comparison to SNA VI and fey ring, which both work at 6th level spells. Summon fey does increase the duration by a lot in comparison to SNA, however, allowing you to make use of both stone tell and move earth, and obviously granting the general advantage of longer duration. The advantage compared to fey ring is even more obvious, as you don't have to deal with the cost/casting time/possible oread murder. That latter factor especially has been seriously annoying in the search for useful fey, as more than one creature has gone from awesome to pretty much useless in the span of seconds on the basis of various dependency and symbiosis abilities. I mean, how can you really expect to succeed in the necessary diplomacy check against a creature that you just indirectly murdered?

[Piggy Knowles]

From a design perspective, summon fey is problematic in the same way that planar binding is problematic - HD is not really an appropriate indicator of how useful a summons is when you are dealing with a class of creatures that almost always have spell-like abilities and powerful supernatural effects. It's less broken at the high end because summoning is less broken than calling, but in many ways it's more disruptive to the average game, because you get it from level one.

Of course, it probably doesn't even count in the top five most broken spells from KoK. Number one would almost certainly go to off the mirror. Like much of KoK's stuff, it's a cool concept, but the intention and the execution are miles apart. They saw a cool-sounding offensive spell; I see infinite consumable items and XP-free wishes.

EDIT: Also, regarding Irresistible Spell being errata'd to give +10 to the save DC instead of eliminating the saving throw entirely (which is still INSANELY strong), that "errata" is just that the spell was updated in Player's Guide to the Sovereign Lands... which is NOT officially licensed by WotC, if I recall correctly. So if you're using KoK as a source because it's officially licensed, then the only official version of Irresistible Spell is still the version where you completely remove the saving throw. Bananas.

[eggynack]

Of course, it probably doesn't even count in the top five most broken spells from KoK. Number one would almost certainly go to off the mirror. Like much of KoK's stuff, it's a cool concept, but the intention and the execution are miles apart. They saw a cool-sounding offensive spell; I see infinite consumable items and XP-free wishes.
That spell does seem like some wacky junk, though I've gotta say that I love this one for how almost... intended it is. I mean, a lot of the time you have to use two separate obscure sources to find the broken power, but here it's all just right there in core. It's probably one of the most famous fey out there, and moreover, a druid can already summon a weaker version with SNA VI. All the information was there and readily available. Just gives me the warm and fuzzies. Off the mirror is certainly quite broken, but it feels a lot like something a wizard can already do in a million different ways, though perhaps less efficient ways, while summon fey grants druids something that they're otherwise not really doing.

[Blackhawk748]

KoK has this problem a lot, it goes from way OP to way underpowered. Kenzer wasnt exactly great with crunch, their fluff is great though. An odd thing i've noticed though is that most of the things are fixable by either adding a line or taking away a line.

[Khatoblepas]

To determine the amount of respect that should be afforded to the Kingdoms of Kalamar rules, look at the Bandit base class BAB progression.

Then look at its design and class features.

Then look at the Muse PrC.

Whoa, the Brigand gets +4 to it's ranks in Bluff? That's amazingly good. I'm pretty sure there's a way to abuse that.

And as for the Muse, it's painfully mediocre until you get to 10th level, where you can Will-Save or not die at will, I think? Death Poem is incredibly poorly written. Give that some Steadfast Determination and you've got yourself an immortal.

On a related note, if the class was finished, Order of the Slayer would make a pretty neat 3 level dip for an undead focused dude. At will Detect Undead, and Hide from Undead, and Light, +3 BAB and 3rd level spells? And the way the prerequisites are set up, you only need one of the feat prerequisites. Unfortunately, it doesn't have any mechanics to say how it casts it's few spells.

[Graypairofsocks]

My understanding is that irresistible spell was later altered by some method such that it is currently only a +10 to the save DC. The feat also definitely doesn't cancel SR. It's actually that feat's use in optimization advice (particularly the handbook "metamagic and you: a thesis", along with arbitrary forum mention) that guided me to the book in the first place in search of druid optimization stuff.

I don't think it was actually errated, I found an errata for Kingdoms of Kalamar but it didn't have anything about irresistable spell in it.

[Karnith]

My understanding is that it's just dragonlance campaign setting that qualifies as first party, for some reason. This stuff is weird.
The reason being that it was published (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dlacc/869900000) by (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030801a) WotC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20030802a) (and was, to my knowledge, the first 3.5 splatbook), while the rest were published by Sovereign Press.

Now, why did WotC publish the campaign setting book and let Sovereign Press handle the rest? That I couldn't tell you.

I don't think it was actually errated, I found an errata for Kingdoms of Kalamar but it didn't have anything about irresistable spell in it.
As mentioned upthread, it got an "errata" in the form of an updated version in a later KoK book (namely, Player's Guide to the Sovereign Lands).

[Graypairofsocks]

As mentioned upthread, it got an "errata" in the form of an updated version in a later KoK book (namely, Player's Guide to the Sovereign Lands).

Oh, thanks.