Yabusame - Pathfinder - Does it seem like their 6th level power is OP

[BumblingDM]

Shi no ya (Ex)

At 6th level, the yabusame is able to focus his energies so that his arrows do more potential damage. So long as the yabusame makes only a single ranged bow attack in a round, foregoing any iterative attacks, he adds his Dexterity modifier (if positive) to his damage and his arrows do double damage. On a critical, his arrows instead do triple damage. At 11th, and then again at 16th level, the damage from his arrows, when using this ability, increases by another step, so that at 16th level, he does x4 damage on a successful hit and his critical hits with a bow do x5 damage. When using this ability, if the attack misses by 5 or less, the arrow still grazes the target, doing the base damage of the weapon, plus the yabusame's Dexterity modifier in damage. This ability may be used in conjunction with one with the yumi, and any feats which applies to a single bow attack.

This replaces the bonus feat class feature.

So a 20 dex character with a MW longbow should be pooping out 2d8+10, with many shot this should be 4d8 +40 - and how does this work with critical hits, as a bow is already x3 then they are doing x5 on a crit for 7d8+200?

I have a player playing this class - and I really like the concept and flavor, but the more i look at it, the more it seems like this class is autocritical hitting every round.

Am I reading this right?

Here is the link for the entire class -http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai/archetypes/rite-publishing---samurai-archetypes/yabusame

[togapika]

Shi no ya (Ex)
So long as the yabusame makes only a single ranged bow attack in a round, foregoing any iterative attacks, he adds his Dexterity modifier (if positive) to his damage and his arrows do double damage.



So a 20 dex character with a MW longbow should be pooping out 2d8+10, with many shot this should be 4d8 +40


One of these things is not like the other...

[BumblingDM]

Togapika - the last line reads as such - This ability may be used in conjunction with one with the yumi, and any feats which applies to a single bow attack.

Manyshot does combine with that does it not? I just reread manyshot and not seeing where it would not
- http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/manyshot-combat---final

[I3igAl]

Shi no ya (Ex)

At 6th level, the yabusame is able to focus his energies so that his arrows do more potential damage. So long as the yabusame makes only a single ranged bow attack in a round, foregoing any iterative attacks, he adds his Dexterity modifier (if positive) to his damage and his arrows do double damage. On a critical, his arrows instead do triple damage. At 11th, and then again at 16th level, the damage from his arrows, when using this ability, increases by another step, so that at 16th level, he does x4 damage on a successful hit and his critical hits with a bow do x5 damage. When using this ability, if the attack misses by 5 or less, the arrow still grazes the target, doing the base damage of the weapon, plus the yabusame's Dexterity modifier in damage. This ability may be used in conjunction with one with the yumi, and any feats which applies to a single bow attack.

This replaces the bonus feat class feature.

So a 20 dex character with a MW longbow should be pooping out 2d8+10, with many shot this should be 4d8 +40 - and how does this work with critical hits, as a bow is already x3 then they are doing x5 on a crit for 7d8+200?

I have a player playing this class - and I really like the concept and flavor, but the more i look at it, the more it seems like this class is autocritical hitting every round.

Am I reading this right?

Here is the link for the entire class -http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai/archetypes/rite-publishing---samurai-archetypes/yabusame

You misread it. Manyshot only works on full attacks not on single attack actions. The crit damage is instead of the normal multiplier. Only the arrow damage is multiplied.

Therefore you would look at 2d8+5, 3d8+5 on a crit.
It's basically Vital Strike for Archers. It's main use would be combinig it with Vital strike to get 4d8 at level 6, Greater Vital Strike for 6d8 at lvl 11 etc.

You could also combine it with spells like Lead Blades or Enlarge Person. Otherwise it's just a situational ability when you have moved that round.

[BumblingDM]

So the shin doesn't say it takes an action - only referencing that when the character makes a single attack as long as they do not have iterative attacks they get this bonus.
It also stacks with one with the yumi which is a full round, so it seems that it would work with manyshot as well -

Now the double damage they refer to would copy out on any mighty composite correct? I am not trying to troll, just going thru the motions of the what a player will say when i seem to be "nerfing" them.

[I3igAl]

Togapika - the last line reads as such - This ability may be used in conjunction with one with the yumi, and any feats which applies to a single bow attack.

Manyshot does combine with that does it not? I just reread manyshot and not seeing where it would not
- http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/manyshot-combat---final

Manyshot requires a full-action.

The ability only works on single attacks.

[BumblingDM]

ok - that sounds reasonable - seemed like it stacked a bit too fast

[I3igAl]

Shi no ya (Ex)

as the yabusame makes only a single ranged bow attack in a round, foregoing any iterative attacks

There it is.

[BumblingDM]

well it is a single attack roll - and there are no iterative attacks when doing this. using manyshot as a full round action and choosing not to make any additional means it qualifies for the shi no ya ability to trigger.

[BWR]

well it is a single attack roll - and there are no iterative attacks when doing this. using manyshot as a full round action and choosing not to make any additional means it qualifies for the shi no ya ability to trigger.

No.
Manyshot specifically says "When making a full-attack action your first attack fires two arrows." It's the very first sentence in the description of the Benefit of the feat.

[Talbot]

UGGGG. Wrote a giant, comprehensive reply, then GitP auto-logged me out before I could post it, and it's gone now. Version 2.0

Anyways, I'm the player in question.

Let's start with the rules issue, though ultimately that one's a lot less important to me than the fun-factor one; if everyone's having a good time, I don't care if something is legally iffy, and if everyone's having a bad time, I don't care if something is 100% cut and dried rules legal.

Rules: The answers to these three questions answer the rules legality issues here, though I don't claim to be an authority on any of them:

1) Is an "attack" anything that requires an attack roll, or anything that strikes the enemy?

2) Can someone forego the iteratives on Manyshot? If so, Shi No Ya applies at least on that front, as Shi No Ya doesn't give two spits whether your action is a standard or a full attack, only how many attacks you make. If the answer to #1 is "attack rolls" and the answer to this one is "yes, iteratives are optional", then they should stack. If not, they shouldn't.

3) What exactly does Shi No Ya multiply? My understanding when building/picking the class- and my DM's at least initially, I believe- was that it multiplies what most things multiply: weapon dice and any flat numbers (not including precision damage or weapon special features). If it's just "add some d8s" as described, then it's pretty much inferior to rapid shot (ceiling of 2x damage vs x3, plus only one chance to hit/crit).

Rules aside, if it's too powerful and it starts ruining someone's good time, it should change. While I know that at least in 3.5 it was relatively easy to build way more damaging martial characters, I don't know if that's still true in PF, and it isn't the point besides. My guy is clearly at the high end of the power curve in terms of raw damage output, at least for a non-magic user, and if he's making the game less fun for everyone, he's got to go. To my knowledge, he's not ruining anyone's good time, but if I'm wrong about that, please let me know, Bumbling DM. My reasoning, for whatever it's worth, for why it isn't game-breakingly powerful is below, but naturally whatever I think matters a lot less than what other players/the DM think; even if I'm right about the below, if it's causing someone else to not enjoy the game, it isn't worth it.

1) While the damage is obviously very high, it's basically all I can do. Every other character in the game is more versatile; that's the price of specialization.

2) While the damage is obviously very high, my defensive capabilities are not; I'm basically useless in melee, and provoke anytime I try to fight back (using my bow). I have pretty decent HP, and the Resolve that comes from my class, but that's about it. My saves are ok, but by no means impressive and I fail them about as often as not so far, I think.

3) To be effective, like most snipers, I need to be in ideal position. This generally necessitates the help of my party (most recent combat: fighting 6 monsters on the Plane of Shadow, I couldn't have seen, let alone hit, anything without the party casting light, faerie fire, and glitter dust, and keeping the monsters off of me long enough for to pick them off (I killed either 2 or 3 of them, and damaged I think all but one).

4) Any bad guy who can't be dealt with by shooting at him (say one behind a wall, or one I can't see, or one with the deflect arrows feat, etc.) is partially or entirely immune to my character.

5) Building on some of the above, my character is basically useful in two types of combats: ambushes/defenses where he can choose his position and battlefield before the enemy is aware that he's eve there, and combats like the one above where the party works together to protect/enable him. By himself, he'd easily be overwhelmed by a handful of CR 3 or 4 mooks, or anything that got the jump on him/grappled him/disarmed him/generally got into melee range.

6) If you can make him move, he can't Manyshot anyways; his mega-damage only works when he's able to dictate the terms of engagement. He also loses bunch of to-hit from One With The Yumi in that case.

?) FWIW, I ran the build, and potential max damage, past my DM before building it the way I did, with the understanding that if it broke the game, we could tweak it. This isn't so much a justification as a clarification; I don't want to come across as a power-gaming jerk that tried to slip something by my DM; I asked before I started blowing things' heads off.

7) I stunk for seven levels before my build came on-line; this is the weakest justification, but is included for the sake of completeness. The straw man of having paid my dues :)


TL;DR on those: My guy definitely has an A+ in shooting things in the face from far away, but that's all he's any good at. He's got a lot of Cs, Ds, and Fs in every other category. He's hyper-specialized to get that "Boom! Headshot!" sniper feel, which is what I want him to be.

Again, though, none of what I just wrote above matters at all if he's ruining someone else's good time, regardless of whether or not its rules legal, so if he is (and BumblingDM would know the answer to that better than I would), let's look at potential solutions:

1) Manyshot works like a regular multiplier, instead of its weird "I'm not a multiplier but I double everything" status quo. That lets him keep a very high (though lower) level of power, but it makes his (full round action only) x3, x4, and x5 over the course of the game instead of x4, x6, and x8. Of the three "nerf" options, this is the one I'd prefer, though I suspect he'll end up lagging pretty far behind the casters, and possibly some damage-oriented fighters, in terms of usefulness at later levels in this case.

2) Manyshot doesn't stack at all, but I get to retrain Manyshot into a feat I'll actually use. This cuts my guy's max damage flatly in half, and therefore I of course don't like it. But it's a potential option.

3) Shi No Ya only multiplies dice, and therefore kinda sucks. I like this one even less.

4) Mr. Jone (character name) retires or dies and I build something new. This one I'm torn on; on the one hand, I built Jones to be a very specific type of character (max possible damage glass cannon headshot sniper, though his luck with HP rolls has made him more of a cheap plastic cannon), and losing that feel to become "archer who hits about as hard, or slightly less hard, than most martial heroes" doesn't much appeal to me. On the other hand, I like Jones' personality, relationships, and role in the world, and it's hard to shoehorn a new character into a story driven campaign. Plus, I work 80 hour weeks and like to spend a lot of time on character creation; retiring Jones and building someone new would likely necessitate missing a few sessions.

So that's the situation as I perceive it. I welcome all feedback and input from both the playground and my DM. :)

[BWR]

UGGGG. Wrote a giant, comprehensive reply, then GitP auto-logged me out before I could post it, and it's gone now. Version 2.0


Huh? That happens to me all the time. I just log in after hitting sumbit and the post comes up as normal.




1) Is an "attack" anything that requires an attack roll, or anything that strikes the enemy?

No clear definition. I tend towards 'anything intended to directly inconvenience an enemy', be it attack rolls, spells, area effects, etc.


2) Can someone forego the iteratives on Manyshot? If so, Shi No Ya applies at least on that front, as Shi No Ya doesn't give two spits whether your action is a standard or a full attack, only how many attacks you make. If the answer to #1 is "attack rolls" and the answer to this one is "yes, iteratives are optional", then they should stack. If not, they shouldn't.
You need not make the attacks a full attack grants you. Since it says it can work with other abilities so long as you make only a single attack, I'm inclined to think that it, by RAW would work with Manyshot. Going by that, I would say the extra damage to apply to one of the arrows, not both. Precision damage and crits only apply to a single arrow from Manyshot. However, I would not allow this in my games, since it seems clear to me the meaning of this ability is to fire a single arrow, not multiple arrows - a problem of mechanics vs fluff.



3) What exactly does Shi No Ya multiply? My understanding when building/picking the class- and my DM's at least initially, I believe- was that it multiplies what most things multiply: weapon dice and any flat numbers (not including precision damage or weapon special features). If it's just "add some d8s" as described, then it's pretty much inferior to rapid shot (ceiling of 2x damage vs x3, plus only one chance to hit/crit).


I would give it (base damage + static modifiers, which now includes Dex)x2. Better than Vital Strike, but that feat chain is widely considered to be underpowered. OTOH, since you can combine with with other attack actions, unlike VS, it may very well be they meant (base dice damage x2)+ modifiers. I'm inclined to go with the former, especially since calcualting critical damage would be a pain otherwise.
They also got the criticals for bows wrong - they are x3 to begin with, yet it seems they say it increases to x3. I think they just messed up and assumed that bows did x2, so I think they menat it to be x2/x4 at 6th, x3/x5 at 11th, etc.. Unless there are stats for Japanese bows I am unaware of.


In fact, I would just rewrite the ability thusly:


At 6th level, the yabusame is able to focus his energies so that his arrows do more potential damage. In any round where he makes only a single attack, which must be made with a bow, he may add his Dexterity modifier (if positive) to his damage and his arrows do double damage (all static modifiers included). On a critical, his arrows instead do quadruple damage. At 11th, and then again at 16th level, the damage from his arrows, when using this ability, increases by another step, so that at 16th level, he does x5 damage on a successful hit and his critical hits with a bow do x6 damage. When using this ability, if the attack misses by 5 or less, the arrow still grazes the target, doing the base damage of the weapon (not including normal static modifiers), plus the yabusame's Dexterity modifier in damage. This ability may be used in conjunction with one with the yumi, and any feats which applies to a single bow attack.


As for the rest of it, I don't see that it's an unbalanced build, but that's in my game. As you noted, the most important thing is that everyone at the table is more or less balanced against eachother and that the DM feels comfortable with it. You'll be very dangerous against a single target each round, but that's it. With the clarifications I've noted, I'd allow the build.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The ability seems pretty weak considering an archer (especially a horse archer) can basically always full attack with rapid shot, honestly...

I hope that "x3 if you crit" is before adding the bow's own x3 crit multiplier (for a total of x5, due to how multipliers are added) since otherwise the ability's not actually doing any additional damage at all on a crit over a normal shot.

Poorly worded. Can you combine w/ Vital Strike? And technically since it doesn't bother to give it an action type or say "if you take an attack action" or whatever, you *could argue* that if you take a full attack action for it (forgoing the iteratives as it says you must), you just made a full attack and thus Manyshot *does* apply.

[Talbot]

Thanks for all the help, everybody. For anyone who's curious, the compromise we went with is thus:

* My current damage stays unchanged (effectively x4 on a full attack).

*At 11th and 16th level, the multiplier only goes up on the first arrow (so at 16-20, first arrow does x4, second arrow does x2).

*Crit multiplier bumped up by one (so currently x4, will end up at x6, but still only applies to the first arrow).

I'm pretty ok with it; keeps my "trick" (cartoonishly high damage once per round) without getting me to the point where I'm one-shotting everything in the late-game.