Would this be tier 0?

[gooddragon1]

>Automatic knowledge of any spell on any spell list (at multiple levels in some cases) like clerics.
>Prepare spells like a wizard but may change the contents of any number of slots at will as though re-preparing (even when it isn't your turn).
>Ignore divine focus components and components less than 1 gp automatically.
>Cast based off int.
>Pasted on a barbarian chassis with rogue/wizard combined skill list and rogue skill points.

If not, what would need to be added?

[Renen]

Yes
/10chars

Its so broken, that you wont be able to play it normally in any game ever

[Vaz]

No.

A Wizard can do all of that natively anyway through its spells.

[nedz]

I tend to view T0 as having one of the following characteristics

Cast any spell without preparation. Example: Rainbow Warsnake
Spellcaster who can smash to action economy into little pieces: Example: Beholder Mage, certain Planar Shephards

Other things are gravy.

[Rubik]

I tend to view T0 as having one of the following characteristics

Cast any spell without preparation. Example: Rainbow Warsnake
Spellcaster who can smash to action economy into little pieces: Example: Beholder Mage, certain Planar Shephards

Other things are gravy.Psions can already do the latter around level 2.

[Rebel7284]

Tier 0 is not strictly defined.

I have to say that there is not much that this character is doing that a Shadowcraft Mage/Incantatrix with Uncanny Forethought persisting a few buffs can't do.

Although that may be the definition of tier 0 to some people.

[SinsI]

No, because Tier 1 is anything that is The Best And Most Capable of Breaking Any Game - by definition, nothing better can exist.

[Rubik]

No, because Tier 1 is anything that is The Best And Most Capable of Breaking Any Game - by definition, nothing better can exist.T0 is basically Theoretical Ops level, such as the Omniscificer or Pun Pun.

[Gemini476]

Looks like a solid Tier One to me. The most solid, perhaps, or near so.

Game-breaking power? Check. Versatility? Check.

To make it Tier 0, you need to add a definition for Tier 0. There isn't one, you see, so people just look at the most broken Tier 1 builds and say "this is horribly broken in comparison to the rest of Tier 1, so this should be in a higher tier."
The problem with that is, of course, that Tier 1-2 are defined as "the tiers that are broken". Paraphrasing somewhat heavily, of course.

Infinite power and extremely limited versatility, like the d2 Crusader for instance, is Tier 2. Infinite power with infinite versatility, like Pun-Pun, is Tier 1. Because that's how the system is set up. Overpowered gets lumped into 1-2, underpowered into 5-6.

And anyway, what you're describing as far as casting goes is pretty much the Erudite (if the list is the size of the Psion+all arcane spells, that is). Also, that "reprepare at any time' mechanic is mechanically identical to spontaneous list casting.
(By the way, the barbarian chassis isn't contributing much - they can't cast spells whilst raging and Divine Power gets you full BAB anyway.)

[nedz]

T0 is basically Theoretical Ops level, such as the Omniscificer or Pun Pun.

There is a tier of optimisation between T1 and TO, now this is in want of definition.

[eggynack]

Psions can already do the latter around level 2.
True, though to some extent it's obviously about what you're actually doing during those extra actions. Factotums get some action themed shenanigans too, after all. I figure that any requirements of that sort for tier 0 have to be on top of a tier 1 base.

[nedz]

My first definition was based on this view
Tier 2 — can cast any spell, from a broad list, if you build for it
Tier 1 — can cast any spell, from a broad list, with preparation
Tier 0 — can cast any spell, from a broad list, without preparation

My second definition is more problematic and needs some work. The examples I gave can cast 10 + 10 (swift) spells a round. Now I am aware of psion tricks which can do this, but not at level 2

[Piggy Knowles]

My first definition was based on this view
Tier 2 — can cast any spell, from a broad list, if you build for it
Tier 1 — can cast any spell, from a broad list, with preparation
Tier 0 — can cast any spell, from a broad list, without preparation

My second definition is more problematic and needs some work. The examples I gave can cast 10 + 10 (swift) spells a round. Now I am aware of psion tricks which can do this, but not at level 2

Maybe change the definitions to...

Tier 2 - Can cast a limited number of spells from a broad list.
Tier 1 - Can cast a limited number of spells from a broad list, but can change out those limited spells frequently.
Tier 0 - Can cast any spell from a broad list.

I'm not sure I agree with those definitions, nor am I sure that there's really any great need for a tier 0 in the first place, but at least it makes a functional distinction.

[Renen]

So you can cast any spell ever.
You have d12 HP and a tonn of skill points.

I'd say that if T0 is punpun and omnificer level, then this would fall short.
But if T0 is "make everyone ever totally useless" then this would fit.

[Jeff the Green]

My first definition was based on this view
Tier 2 — can cast any spell, from a broad list, if you build for it
Tier 1 — can cast any spell, from a broad list, with preparation
Tier 0 — can cast any spell, from a broad list, without preparation

My second definition is more problematic and needs some work. The examples I gave can cast 10 + 10 (swift) spells a round. Now I am aware of psion tricks which can do this, but not at level 2

I'm not sure Tier 2's definition is quite right. Tier 2 is commonly understood to contain Wu Jen and possibly Spirit Shaman. A better definition would be "can cast any spell from a broad list if you build for it or from a limited list with preparation."

Except not really. I can conceive of an Incarnum-based class that is on par with a sorcerer or a wizard. Likewise a binder (we already have tier 2 with Zcerryl) or a martial adept. Really, the top two tiers are defined by how their powers can reshape the world. Tier 2 has only a small number of world-breaking abilities per character. Tier 1 has a large number per character.

[eggynack]

So you can cast any spell ever.
You have d12 HP and a tonn of skill points.

I'd say that if T0 is punpun and omnificer level, then this would fall short.
But if T0 is "make everyone ever totally useless" then this would fit.
If tier 0 is "make everyone ever totally useless," then either wizards are tier 0, or this is tier 1. This class doesn't make wizards totally useless, after all, and tier 1 classes tend to, practically by definition, make classes of lower levels totally useless. Not all the time, of course, but a good amount of the time. The thing of it is, there's not a massive and substantial difference in power level between this and a standard wizard, even if there is some difference.

[Flickerdart]

Casting any spell spontaneously is not meaningfully better than casting any spell with preparation. You are still in the category of "can break the game in any way you want" which is Tier 1. The fact that a wizard needs a day and this character needs an action to change loadout doesn't really make a difference for the ranking.

The only thing more powerful than being able to break the game in any way you want is DM fiat. Unless you are as powerful as the DM, you are not T0.

[Immabozo]

I can't help but think, in reading this discussion, of the StP Erudite. Can cast any spell on any list, with no preparation.

[Lightlawbliss]

I have heard T0 given as "Removes the need for a DM, or has DM level powers."

[137beth]

I have heard T0 given as "Removes the need for a DM, or has DM level powers."

Not even Pun-pun can stand up to DM-fiat.
Unless you mean stuff the DM can do within the rules, in which case the only way to counter it would be for an npc to have become pun-pun first.

[Rubik]

I can't help but think, in reading this discussion, of the StP Erudite. Can cast any spell on any list, with no preparation.The fun thing is, StP erudites aren't even the strongest. A regular psion can put a StP erudite to shame, since they can access the entire erudite list (ie, all spells, all psionic powers) in various ways without the limit of the Unique Powers Per Day. Of course, the UPPD "class feature" isn't as much of a limiter as it's supposed to be, given all the ways there are to bypass it. Still, not having to worry about it in the first place is definitely something.

[Piggy Knowles]

I'm not sure Tier 2's definition is quite right. Tier 2 is commonly understood to contain Wu Jen and possibly Spirit Shaman. A better definition would be "can cast any spell from a broad list if you build for it or from a limited list with preparation."

Commonly understood by whom? Just about every placement I've seen places them either at the very lowest end of Tier 1, or the high end of Tier 3. Even JaronK said that Spirit Shaman couldn't be Tier 2.

[amalcon]

"God tier", in most tier systems, is defined as "This is clearly superior to all alternatives", or "There is no reason to be anything but this if you're trying to win." JaronK's tier system doesn't really work like that, but I'm inclined to run with this definition of tier zero as it's the best I've got.

In order for anything but Pun-Pun or a similar recursion trick to be in tier zero, we need to ignore those things, so let's do that as well.

Under that definition, such a class is tier zero, unless it's crippled by its spell progression (for example, something with a Paladin progression and these rules would probably be in the tier 2-3 neighborhood). With a generalist-Wizard-like progression (fewest spells per day of any 1/3/5/... progression), it's clearly superior (power-wise) to every other class at mid to high levels, and only the Druid approaches that power level at low levels. There's just no reason to play a Wizard if this is available, because it does everything a Wizard does (except feats, but five feats over 20 levels can't compare to these advantages) and has other advantages. Likewise with Cleric (Turn Undead is nice, but doesn't compare) and Druid (this has the most extra abilities, but even they don't add up to these advantages). Spell-to-Power Erudite has the best claim to parity, but it's at best comparable at high levels; this thing is far better at low levels.

[eggynack]

"God tier", in most tier systems, is defined as "This is clearly superior to all alternatives", or "There is no reason to be anything but this if you're trying to win." JaronK's tier system doesn't really work like that, but I'm inclined to run with this definition of tier zero as it's the best I've got.

In order for anything but Pun-Pun or a similar recursion trick to be in tier zero, we need to ignore those things, so let's do that as well.

Under that definition, such a class is tier zero, unless it's crippled by its spell progression (for example, something with a Paladin progression and these rules would probably be in the tier 2-3 neighborhood). With a generalist-Wizard-like progression (fewest spells per day of any 1/3/5/... progression), it's clearly superior (power-wise) to every other class at mid to high levels, and only the Druid approaches that power level at low levels. There's just no reason to play a Wizard if this is available, because it does everything a Wizard does (except feats, but five feats over 20 levels can't compare to these advantages) and has other advantages. Likewise with Cleric (Turn Undead is nice, but doesn't compare) and Druid (this has the most extra abilities, but even they don't add up to these advantages). Spell-to-Power Erudite has the best claim to parity, but it's at best comparable at high levels; this thing is far better at low levels.
This is obviously better than a wizard, but it's just not enough better to justify this shift. The improved chassis isn't sufficient to mean a tier shift, and all spells isn't really all that much better than wizard spells. We can't run with this definition of tier zero, because it's doesn't do enough to shift out of the big country of nukes classification. This class doesn't have anything greater than that big country of nukes, so we're still in tier one.

[amalcon]

This is obviously better than a wizard, but it's just not enough better to justify this shift. The improved chassis isn't sufficient to mean a tier shift, and all spells isn't really all that much better than wizard spells. We can't run with this definition of tier zero, because it's doesn't do enough to shift out of the big country of nukes classification. This class doesn't have anything greater than that big country of nukes, so we're still in tier one.Do you have a better definition, then?

I'd also contend that all spells *is* significantly better than wizard spells, as it gives access to many effects a lot sooner. Example: This can remove diseases at level 5; Wizards need to wait for at least Planar Binding at level 9, and probably Limited Wish at level 11. Wizards need to wait until level 5 to cast Haste and Clairaudience (two all-time favorites); this gets them at level 1 from the Trapsmith list. Otto's Irresistible Dance is available at level 11 to this (Bard list), but at level 15 to the Wizard.

edit: Also, I think you underestimate both the pseudo-spontaneity and the improved chassis. Both are more important at low to mid levels (1-8), so it's understandable given that this board focuses a lot on high levels, but at the lower levels the additional endurance provided by both of these abilities will be huge.

[eggynack]

Do you have a better definition, then?
I'm not really sure, though it probably has to be something like a tier one class with a powerful prestige class. A wizard/incantatrix is probably more powerful than this class is, for example. Realistically, you probably have to be doing something beyond just casting spells, like casting large quantities of spells in short amounts of time, or casting spells in a far more powerful way.


I'd also contend that all spells *is* significantly better than wizard spells, as it gives access to many effects a lot sooner. Example: This can remove diseases at level 5; Wizards need to wait for at least Planar Binding at level 9, and probably Limited Wish at level 11. Wizards need to wait until level 5 to cast Haste and Clairaudience (two all-time favorites); this gets them at level 1 from the Trapsmith list. Otto's Irresistible Dance is available at level 11 to this (Bard list), but at level 15 to the Wizard.
It's obviously quite a bit better. It's just not really enough better for a shift in tier.

[amalcon]

I'm not really sure, though it probably has to be something like a tier one class with a powerful prestige class. A wizard/incantatrix is probably more powerful than this class is, for example.Assuming the spells are arcane, you could just take this into Incantatrix, in which case it's obviously more powerful than the Wizard version again.

More to the point, Incantatrix only provides a little more added power than this class would give natively. Of the three major abilities (cooperative metamagic, metamagic effect, improved metamagic), the first two are basically persistomancer tricks, of which there are about a million in D&D 3.5. The last is very good and almost unique, but is hardly worth a tier shift.


It's obviously quite a bit better. It's just not really enough better for a shift in tier.I'm just not sure why you see it this way. The power difference here is significantly greater in relative terms than from (say) Beguiler to Sorcerer, which results in a tier shift.

[eggynack]

Assuming the spells are arcane, you could just take this into Incantatrix, in which case it's obviously more powerful than the Wizard version again.
Well, yeah. If wizard into incantatrix is tier zero, then this into incantatrix is also tier zero. I don't see why that matters. this evaluation is assuming the wizard into incantatrix as its own game object to be separately tiered.


More to the point, Incantatrix only provides a little more added power than this class would give natively. Of the three major abilities (cooperative metamagic, metamagic effect, improved metamagic), the first two are basically persistomancer tricks, of which there are about a million in D&D 3.5. The last is very good and almost unique, but is hardly worth a tier shift.

There aren't really all that many persistomancy tricks, and definitely nothing on this scale. Sure, clerics can do it easily, but we're talking about wizard spells here, which means stuff like persisted greater mirror image, which is crazy. Being able to break the duration in half on the best list in the game can lead to some silly things.


I'm just not sure why you see it this way. The power difference here is significantly greater in relative terms than from (say) Beguiler to Sorcerer, which results in a tier shift.
I'm honestly pretty doubtful on that account. Beguiler is running off of a pretty limited list, while sorcerer is running off of the best list in the game. Wizards have plenty of perfectly good spells without adding on these extra spells to fill in the gaps.

[ryu]

Assuming the spells are arcane, you could just take this into Incantatrix, in which case it's obviously more powerful than the Wizard version again.

More to the point, Incantatrix only provides a little more added power than this class would give natively. Of the three major abilities (cooperative metamagic, metamagic effect, improved metamagic), the first two are basically persistomancer tricks, of which there are about a million in D&D 3.5. The last is very good and almost unique, but is hardly worth a tier shift.

I'm just not sure why you see it this way. The power difference here is significantly greater in relative terms than from (say) Beguiler to Sorcerer, which results in a tier shift.

Considering the number of spells a sorcerer gets that a beguiler just doesn't I would consider that a significantly bigger gap than this and by a wide margin at that.

[amalcon]

There aren't really all that many persistomancy tricks, and definitely nothing on this scale. Sure, clerics can do it easily, but we're talking about wizard spells here, which means stuff like persisted greater mirror image, which is crazy. Being able to break the duration in half on the best list in the game can lead to some silly things.So all it would take to make this tier zero is to slap a "Divine" label on the spellcasting and give it Turn Undead? Archivist with a one-level Sacred Exorcist dip is tier zero, but this isn't? I'm somewhat dubious there.

Perhaps more importantly, Cooperative Metamagic/Metamagic Effect are hardly free persistent spells: they require a great deal of Spellcraft optimization. It's hard to reliably hit DC 39 Spellcraft checks (to persist a level 1 spell) at mid levels without using Item Familiar or a homebrewed Spellcraft booster item. Unless, of course, you have a spell like Improvisation or Guidance of the Avatar -- both of which this has, but Wizards don't.

For the level of investment that takes, yes, there are quite a few persistent spell tricks.


I'm honestly pretty doubtful on that account. Beguiler is running off of a pretty limited list, while sorcerer is running off of the best list in the game. Wizards have plenty of perfectly good spells without adding on these extra spells to fill in the gaps.I'm not sure the Sor/Wiz list is the best in the game, but really that's neither here nor there because the Beguiler list is definitely worse. It's still quite good, though. The point is that you need to apply some reasonable comparison, and what you seem to be using for Wizard vs. this is some combination of "A spell exists for every situation" and "I won't run out of stuff to use my slots on". Beguiler is very close to Sorcerer on both fronts (mainly thanks to Shadow Conjuration for mind-affecting immunes, but it still ends up very close).

[NichG]

I'd class the more rules-generous interpretations of Pun-Pun as Tier 0, because while a Tier 1 character can break the game in every way within the rules, the most generous Pun-Pun interpretations can write new rules at will.

Maybe the distinction should be 'a Tier 1 character can deal with any situation in the game at will' versus 'a Tier 0 character can change the definition of the game'.

[SinsI]

T0 is basically Theoretical Ops level, such as the Omniscificer or Pun Pun.
No, those are still Tier 1. Even DM fiat is Tier 1.

It's the usual "Win better" fallacy. If the class potentially has "I win" button for any and every encounter/campaign, the nature of that button doesn't matter - it is Tier 1.

[ryu]

No, those are still Tier 1. Even DM fiat is Tier 1.

It's the usual "Win better" fallacy. If the class potentially has "I win" button for any and every encounter/campaign, the nature of that button doesn't matter - it is Tier 1.

Wrong. Not only is there a tier 0, but also tiers -1, -2, and Pun-Pun. They are derived from the results of putting builds above tier one against each other in a natural extension of more highly optimized worlds. The fact that you aren't likely to meet more than a moderately competent wizard in-game doesn't mean there aren't things that straight-up find him quaint still buildable with PC rules.

[Flickerdart]

Wrong. Not only is there a tier 0, but also tiers -1, -2, and Pun-Pun. They are derived from the results of putting builds above tier one against each other in a natural extension of more highly optimized worlds. The fact that you aren't likely to meet more than a moderately competent wizard in-game doesn't mean there aren't things that straight-up find him quaint still buildable with PC rules.
The tier system isn't for builds.

[ryu]

The tier system isn't for builds.

Jarnok may have never bothered to take it that far. Others, however, did.

[NichG]

No, those are still Tier 1. Even DM fiat is Tier 1.

It's the usual "Win better" fallacy. If the class potentially has "I win" button for any and every encounter/campaign, the nature of that button doesn't matter - it is Tier 1.

I'd say there's still a distinction between the usual Tier 1 stuff and DM fiat. The usual Tier 1 stuff has an answer for every scenario (the 'win button'). DM fiat gets to change the question and redefine the scenario itself.

A Tier 1 character is still ostensibly responding to the things the world throws at them. They can make wide sweeping changes in a campaign setting in certain ways (e.g. Tippyverse) but they cannot decide spontaneously that the campaign is going to be about dance competitions between the lords of hell, and that the players themselves must sing in order to make attack rolls.

[gooddragon1]

Wrong. Not only is there a tier 0, but also tiers -1, -2, and Pun-Pun. They are derived from the results of putting builds above tier one against each other in a natural extension of more highly optimized worlds. The fact that you aren't likely to meet more than a moderately competent wizard in-game doesn't mean there aren't things that straight-up find him quaint still buildable with PC rules.

I was always under the impression that tiers above 3 represented flexibility while those up to 3 represented power.

The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force do 1 million points of bonus damage on any attack is still tier 3. The ability to cast from a small selection of spells (but more than warlock) of your choice is tier 2. The ability to cast from a large selection of spells of your choice is tier 1. I assumed that any spell from anywhere would be tier 0.

The tier thingy doesn't describe power past 3 though as I understand it. A wizard who deliberately prepares and casts no spells ever will likely lose a fistfight to a monk. There may be a tier -1 though which would be pun-pun with create your own abilities dm permission as that is absolutely anything ever.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Perhaps more importantly, Cooperative Metamagic/Metamagic Effect are hardly free persistent spells: they require a great deal of Spellcraft optimization. It's hard to reliably hit DC 39 Spellcraft checks (to persist a level 1 spell) at mid levels without using Item Familiar or a homebrewed Spellcraft booster item. Unless, of course, you have a spell like Improvisation or Guidance of the Avatar -- both of which this has, but Wizards don't.Grey elf wizard 5/incantatrix 3.

Take 10, +11 ranks, +7 int, +2 synergy, +2 circumstance1, + 7 untyped2, + 8 competence3, +4 insight4 = spellcraft check of 51. The "cost" was a feat, two low level spell slots, and a google search.

Regarding cleric spells, UMD for wands for this wizard is +5 ranks, +0 charisma, +2 untyped2, +4 insight4 = +11. Not rock-solid (yet), but can use the low level cleric buffs if he invests in a few wands.

1. Masterwork Tool
2. Moth Familiar, aiding another, after casting Share Talents
3. Loresong (the spell in dragon 335, not the ACF); there is also a precedent for spellcraft-boosting items, namely the Tome of Ancient Lore, which itself grants +5 competence.
4. Shape Soulmeld: Mage's Spectacles.

[amalcon]

Take 10, +11 ranks, +7 int, +2 synergy, +2 circumstance1, + 7 untyped2, + 8 competence3, +4 insight4 = spellcraft check of 51. The "cost" was a feat, two low level spell slots, and a google search.
This seems to prove my point that it's not exactly easy. You're specifying a race (Gray Elves are a decent race, but hardly head and shoulders above other Wizard races), using Dragon Magazine material twice, giving up resources worth 8 points of initiative (a Feat plus familiar selection, which if you use the Dragon Magazine issue with moths could be a hummingbird), assuming availability of some masterwork Spellcraft tool , and assuming that a Spellcraft check is the sort of thing your familiar can Aid Another with (Aid Another includes a DM arbitration clause, "In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial..."). Sure, you managed, but by using basically every resource but homebrew and variant rules, and at significant cost (the +8 initiative delta).

Edit: For comparison, the Psycarnum Metamagic trick uses five feats (Wild Talent, Psycarnum Infusion, Midnight Metamagic, Improved Essentia Capacity, Easy Metamagic), one of which can come from race selection. Incantatrix costs one (Iron Will) plus a school of spells (more valuable than a feat) and the above optimization costs the equivalent of three (race, familiar, actual feat). Psycarnum Metamagic does come online a lot later, but it lets you make literally as many persistent spells as you like, so call that a wash.

[ryu]

I was always under the impression that tiers above 3 represented flexibility while those up to 3 represented power.

The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force do 1 million points of bonus damage on any attack is still tier 3. The ability to cast from a small selection of spells (but more than warlock) of your choice is tier 2. The ability to cast from a large selection of spells of your choice is tier 1. I assumed that any spell from anywhere would be tier 0.

The tier thingy doesn't describe power past 3 though as I understand it. A wizard who deliberately prepares and casts no spells ever will likely lose a fistfight to a monk. There may be a tier -1 though which would be pun-pun with create your own abilities dm permission as that is absolutely anything ever.

That's your benchmark for tier 0 huh? How about casting arbitrarily large and complex spell routines from all lists in the game at any given time, even if it's not your turn? Being hundreds of layers immune to death in contingencies, immunities, long term buffs, clones, replacements, and political power? Doing all this at the same time while maintaining the ability to prepare limitless damage applied in an instant to anything from stopped time? Pun-Pun is not the only thing well above a mildly optimized wizard.

[DMVerdandi]

No OP,
A deity with alter reality is tier 0.

[nedz]

I'm not sure Tier 2's definition is quite right. Tier 2 is commonly understood to contain Wu Jen and possibly Spirit Shaman. A better definition would be "can cast any spell from a broad list if you build for it or from a limited list with preparation."
No actually: It's never been clear what Tier a Spirit Shaman is. I've seen several quite long threads on this question and people normally split 50-50 between T1 and T2, with a few outsiders claiming lower tiers. Now I don't want to derail this thread into re-hashing this debate but this question is part of what led me to consider this view of the higher tiers


Casting any spell spontaneously is not meaningfully better than casting any spell with preparation. You are still in the category of "can break the game in any way you want" which is Tier 1. The fact that a wizard needs a day and this character needs an action to change loadout doesn't really make a difference for the ranking.

The only thing more powerful than being able to break the game in any way you want is DM fiat. Unless you are as powerful as the DM, you are not T0.
Tiers are about being able to meet challenges not break the game, which is why levels 5-15 are normally considered.
There are a number of challenges which being able to prepare spells in 24 hours, or even in 15 minutes, doesn't help with.
These include things like

Encounters you couldn't predict and can't defer.
Running out of resources, e.g. you had a spell prepared for this but have already cast it.


Also, do not confuse T0 with TO or Rule 0

[Segev]

You know, I think a more interesting exercise in theorycraft would be attempting to construct a "class" (much as the OP does) that achieves definite Tier-1 status with the barest minimum number of abilities (down to explicitly restricted spell knowledge).

While by far not likely sufficient on its own, I'm talking about something like "has Planar Ally as a spell-like ability N/day."

Just what is the barest minimum you can give a creature/class such that it will achieve T1 status in terms of sheer power and flexibility without anything extraneous at all? (I mention Planar Ally or Planar Binding because that IS an extremely versatile spell which is often used to snap the game all by itself in theoretical optimization discussions. But is it enough to be T1 all by itself?)

[Flickerdart]

Tiers are about being able to meet challenges not break the game

"Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign..."

[Stella]

(By the way, the barbarian chassis isn't contributing much - they can't cast spells whilst raging and Divine Power gets you full BAB anyway.)It does give you D12 Hit Dice and full BAB whilst inside an AMF. And illiteracy, which is tough to get otherwise. :)

Although I'd sacrifice the D12 HD for D10 HD and build it on a Fighter chassis for all the extra feats. Just because I'd be amused at what the build would look like at 18th level.

The build is horribly crippled by having to prepare spells, give them spontaneous casting with the ability to be quickened.

[gooddragon1]

You know, I think a more interesting exercise in theorycraft would be attempting to construct a "class" (much as the OP does) that achieves definite Tier-1 status with the barest minimum number of abilities (down to explicitly restricted spell knowledge).

While by far not likely sufficient on its own, I'm talking about something like "has Planar Ally as a spell-like ability N/day."

Just what is the barest minimum you can give a creature/class such that it will achieve T1 status in terms of sheer power and flexibility without anything extraneous at all? (I mention Planar Ally or Planar Binding because that IS an extremely versatile spell which is often used to snap the game all by itself in theoretical optimization discussions. But is it enough to be T1 all by itself?)

Now that would be something but somehow I doubt anyone would agree with anyone else on the interpretation.

Also, I think I might be wrong about my assignment of tier -1 as evidenced by ryu's post.


The build is horribly crippled by having to prepare spells, give them spontaneous casting with the ability to be quickened.

Actually, it can swap them out for any other at any time which is functionally like spontaneous but allows for prepared shenanigans as well.

[NichG]

You know, I think a more interesting exercise in theorycraft would be attempting to construct a "class" (much as the OP does) that achieves definite Tier-1 status with the barest minimum number of abilities (down to explicitly restricted spell knowledge).

While by far not likely sufficient on its own, I'm talking about something like "has Planar Ally as a spell-like ability N/day."

Just what is the barest minimum you can give a creature/class such that it will achieve T1 status in terms of sheer power and flexibility without anything extraneous at all? (I mention Planar Ally or Planar Binding because that IS an extremely versatile spell which is often used to snap the game all by itself in theoretical optimization discussions. But is it enough to be T1 all by itself?)

It's boring, but 'Wish as an SLA at will' is probably the simplest (in terms of characters of text) way to achieve this.

[nedz]

"Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign..."

I can break a campaign with a level 1 Paladin, but that doesn't mean that Paladin is Tier 1.

[Shining Wrath]

Just as a thought for comparison.

Sorcerer with one little tweak: Can take 5 full turns per round.

I'd say that probably beats this guy.

[Renen]

You know, I think a more interesting exercise in theorycraft would be attempting to construct a "class" (much as the OP does) that achieves definite Tier-1 status with the barest minimum number of abilities (down to explicitly restricted spell knowledge).

While by far not likely sufficient on its own, I'm talking about something like "has Planar Ally as a spell-like ability N/day."

Just what is the barest minimum you can give a creature/class such that it will achieve T1 status in terms of sheer power and flexibility without anything extraneous at all? (I mention Planar Ally or Planar Binding because that IS an extremely versatile spell which is often used to snap the game all by itself in theoretical optimization discussions. But is it enough to be T1 all by itself?)

What makes a T6 class T1? GATE!!!!!!

[ddude987]

What makes a T6 class T1? GATE!!!!!!
lol Trunamer//Battledancer op


"Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign..."
Tiers are singleton specialized builds that can break a campaign are not the same thing. As nedz pointed out, a level 1 paladin can break a campaign. Tiering classes should be viewed on a broader spectrum of comparison with equal optimization. A specific build may be able to hit a tier, such as level 1 wizards casting wish is probably something like tier -1, StP erudite with Rubik's find of no limit (removing the Ex thing and all that) is tier 0, as are optimized wizard builds. Tier 1 is the baseline for wizard without them purposely gimping themselves.

I suggest something like this...

Tier - requirement - example
-2 - Pun-Pun - Pun-Pun
-1 - Able to break the action economy or make it nonexistent, cast spells significantly ahead of its curve or cast spells with no limit a bit ahead of curve - Infinite action loops, wish at level 1
0 - Able to cast a wide range, most likely on multiple spell lists, with no limit on the number of castings or having a way to gain more castings per day, but being on mostly on curve with spellcasting. - StP erudite
1 - The ability to solve every type of encounter with little or no prep time. - Wizard/Cleric/Druid/RainbowWarsnake
2 - The ability to solve most types of encounters with little or no prep time, and the ability to contribute in a meaningful way to encounters not solvable alone. - Sorcerer
3 - The ability to solve one type of encounter very well, and the ability to contribute in a meaningful way to most other types of encounters. - Factotum/Beguiler

inb4hate/rage/annoyance/being ignore/"you contradict yourself"/"You're wrong"/et cetra

[Gullintanni]

I can break a campaign with a level 1 Paladin, but that doesn't mean that Paladin is Tier 1.

The tier system is not about what a level 1 Paladin with a wish can accomplish. The tier system offers a comparison between classes at equal levels of optimization.

Think of it as a bell curve. If optimization was measured on a scale of 1-10, with 10 being Pun-Pun and 1 being a Truenamer who'd taken no ranks of Truespeak, then the assumption is that if across all levels of optimization a given class is superior to another class, then it belongs in a higher Tier.

For example -- comparing a wizard and paladin, at optimization level 1, the paladin doesn't buy weapons or armor, and the wizard leaves his spellbook at home. Both classes are tier six. At optimization level 10, both classes achieve Pun Pun at some point in their career. At thresholds 2 through 9, the wizard can cast 9th levels spells and the Paladin, generally, can't. Ergo, the wizard belongs in a higher Tier.

Most classes, at the peak of TO (Or optimization level 10, for the sake of our thought exercises), can break the campaign in one way or another. Even UberChargers (Tier 4 by definition) can break the hit point dynamic with trivial effort. The Tier system isn't about TO or Non-OP, it's about the mean. The average Wizard stands head and shoulders above the average Paladin. The outliers are not particularly useful to the tier discussion.

As for the OP's character, Tier 1. At the end of the day, this character has more ways to break the game than a Wizard does, but the Wizard has enough tools in his tool box that no matter the situation, he'll be able to resolve the situation just as effectively as the character presented with trivial effort. Whether you have 100 or 1000 "I win" buttons, from a practical perspective, the results are the same.

If I were to offer a definition for Tier 0, I can't really think of one better than Pun Pun. Pun Pun doesn't resolve encounters by breaking the game. Pun Pun resolves the game, and leaves the encounters to those still struggling to optimize within the confines of a tier system.

[winter92]

I'm seconding the votes for tier 1+ instead of tier 0. Those are some nice "I'm better than a wizard" perks, but unless re-preparing spells can be done in mid-combat timeframes, it's still using about the amount of game-break a wizard is. It's actually a bit reminiscent of a much less foolish the lightning warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?126747-Lightning-warrior) - it's fancier than any normal base class, but shares their basic traits.

To me, the big "Tier 0" standard is the ability to break the game in some way that standard T1 casters don't have. Planar shepherd tricks, an abusive reading of Void Disciple's scrying, or Master of Many Forms + Assume SU Ability (Savage Species) grant abilities that are either much better than anything else, or simply have no in-game counters. T1 spells with spontaneous, full-list casting is grants near-arbitrary power. All are T0 to me, but I wouldn't declare even Urpriest or Iot7 to be T0.

I don't demand Pun-Pun sorts of power to apply the T0 label, but I do expect something either uniquely unstoppable, or uniquely versatile.

[Flickerdart]

I can break a campaign with a level 1 Paladin, but that doesn't mean that Paladin is Tier 1.
And this is what happens when you try to apply the tier system to specific builds.

[ryu]

And this is what happens when you try to apply the tier system to specific builds.

There is, in fact, a reason that he is ranked beyond tier -2. He is the most powerful entity the game is capable of creating.

[ddude987]

Master of Many Forms + Assume SU Ability (Savage Species) grant abilities that are either much better than anything else, or simply have no in-game counters

Shapechange does this, and that is accessible to t2 classes (I'm making an assumption that it is agreed sorc is t2). I agree with everything else stated, except T1+, I prefer going negative, but that's preference.


Can there be an agreement that specific optimized builds can reach tiers above the norm, however official classes (to-date) are not above tier 1?

[ryu]

Shapechange does this, and that is accessible to t2 classes (I'm making an assumption that it is agreed sorc is t2). I agree with everything else stated, except T1+, I prefer going negative, but that's preference.


Can there be an agreement that specific optimized builds can reach tiers above the norm, however official classes (to-date) are not above tier 1?

By that are you meaning that no class taken alone can reach above tier one, or that no base class reaches above tier 1 so long as they only put low to moderate effort into optimizing?

[Flickerdart]

tier -2
Still not a thing.

[Piggy Knowles]

Shapechange does this, and that is accessible to t2 classes (I'm making an assumption that it is agreed sorc is t2). I agree with everything else stated, except T1+, I prefer going negative, but that's preference.

Once you hit level 17 or 18, the tiers start breaking down. Shapechange tacked onto a commoner could arguably make it tier 1, and even things like the truenamer and the healer start tossing around gates in the high levels.

[ddude987]

Still not a thing.

For a class as a whole? It is not. Tiering an individual build, a potentially pointless yet doable exercise, very much in existence.

[nedz]

And this is what happens when you try to apply the tier system to specific builds.

But only specific T1 characters and specific T2 builds can break the game.
Breaking the game has nothing to do with the tier system, this is not what it measures.

[SinsI]

Tier 1 is being able to solve any problem using class abilities. This means not only fighting, but such things as traveling huge distances overnight, building a palace or a fortress in a week, locating someone that protects himself from Scrying and Divinations using Mind Blank, saving an island city from Volcano Explosion, providing the food and drinks to a thousand-strong army in a desert, making a princess fall in love with an enemy ambassador, etc., etc..

I seriously doubt that a paladin can do any of those using only his class abilities and skills.

[ryu]

Tier 1 is being able to solve any problem using class abilities. This means not only fighting, but such things as traveling huge distances overnight, building a palace or a fortress in a week, locating someone that protects himself from Scrying and Divinations using Mind Blank, saving an island city from Volcano Explosion, providing the food and drinks to a thousand-strong army in a desert, making a princess fall in love with enemy ambassador, etc., etc..

I seriously doubt that a paladin can do any of those using only his class abilities and skills.

Are you familiar with the Pun-Pun process and how Pazuzu favors being used by paladins?

[SinsI]

Are you familiar with the Pun-Pun process and how Pazuzu favors being used by paladins?

Yes. It involves using not paladin's class abilities.

[ryu]

Yes. It involves using not paladin's class abilities.

It involves something specific to being a paladin though. By definition of what it is paladins are literally the ONLY ones that gain access to the process that early.

[SinsI]

It involves something specific to being a paladin though. By definition of what it is paladins are literally the ONLY ones that gain access to the process that early.

Doesn't matter - calling Pazuzu is not listed on Paladin's list of class abilities. Furthermore, Candle of Invocations is not his class ability either. It is abuse of external entities and items - any lucky commoner can do the same (with some Aid another and circumstance bonuses).

[Piggy Knowles]

Not really. Pazazu can work for any class. Paladin was chosen because of a fluff line about how Pazazu particularly likes to see paladins fall, and because it was funny to make Pun-Pun a paladin.

[ryu]

Doesn't matter - calling Pazuzu is not listed on Paladin's list of class abilities. Furthermore, Candle of Invocations is not his class ability either. It is abuse of external entities and items - any lucky commoner can do the same (with some Aid another and circumstance bonuses).

And that matters even less. Is Pazuzu more likely to work for paladins yes or no? That's the only relevant part of the discussion.

[NichG]

Tiers are statistical measures, not specific measures. Any one particular build or small set of builds is irrelevant to the tier of a class.

The average over all possible Paladin builds at all possible levels might involve a handful of Pun-Puns, but so does most everything else - maybe at Lv3 instead of Lv1, or at Lv7, or whatever. So all those Pun-Puns cancel out of the overall evaluation, and even if they didn't they represent a small fraction of the build-space.

The thing that makes a Wizard Tier 1 is not that there exists a single optimal wizard build that can do anything, but that on average a random wizard build found in actual play will have options either at hand or easily available that allow the character to address pretty much any situation, often better than the specialists. The reason this happens is that for any wizard, access to any spell on a permanent basis is just a matter of a little time and a little gold - that effect tends to mean that even intentionally bad wizard builds are not very far away from their solutions (the exception being Int-dumped wizards, perhaps). Whereas if you intentionally choose bad feats and maneuvers for a Tome of Battle character, its harder to repair that deficiency.

So if we do want to discuss the Tier of Pun-Pun, we would have to define what build choices we're averaging over in some meaningful way. Perhaps a better example would be to ask what Tier a reptilian character with a Sarrukh follower would be - averaging over all other parameters of that combo (class choice, feat choice, etc), we'd find that the character can at any time contrive to obtain any ability, much like the situation with the Wizard except more extreme since in some readings of the rules this includes abilities that do not yet exist ('the DM must buy this character's player a soda every time an enemy takes a standard action' and other absurdities).

[SinsI]

And that matters even less. Is Pazuzu more likely to work for paladins yes or no? That's the only relevant part of the discussion.
I'd say Binder or Warlock has a much better chance of getting any demon to grant him a Wish. And a commoner can stumble upon a self-resetting Wish trap. Neither of those are relevant to tier discussion - external entities and items are not class abilities.

[Piggy Knowles]

Yeah, again, paladin was chosen for Pun-Pun more because it was funny than anything else. From Fiendish Codex I:



Temptation (Su): If a creature utters the name "Pazazu" three times in succession, an unholy link between the speaker and Pazazu is immediately established...

...Once he arrives, Pazazu asks the speaker why he called upon the Prince of the Lower Aerial Kingdoms. Pazazu almost always agrees to provide aid, but if he does, the caller's alignment shifts one step closer to chaotic. If the caller's alignment is already chaotic, it instead shifts one step closer to evil. These shifts in alignment are considered voluntary. Pazazu never provides aid to chaotic evil creatures and often punishes them for calling upon his aid rather than using the tools he has likely already granted the creature in question.


The section about paladins states that Pazazu particularly enjoys corrupting paladins, but as it states above, Pazazu almost always agrees to provide aid. You can be a wizard or a commoner, and as long as you're not chaotic evil, Pazazu is likely to work. And in any case, Pun-Pun was a wizard before he was a paladin, and a psion before he was a wizard. What makes Pun-Pun Pun-Pun is Manipulate Form, and there are a bunch of ways to get access to that.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

This seems to prove my point that it's not exactly easy. You're specifying a race (Gray Elves are a decent race, but hardly head and shoulders above other Wizard races),Grey Elf gives a whopping +1 to spellcraft relative to any race without an INT penalty. It also provides another use of metamagic effect, and elven generalist pairs well with Incantatrix, which is why I chose it as the base race. Would you rather human, for a 50 spellcraft?
using Dragon Magazine material twice,So are we talking about something being difficult, or a DM banning certain methods and making it difficult? Also, see the last part.
giving up resources worth 8 points of initiative (a Feat plus familiar selection, which if you use the Dragon Magazine issue with moths could be a hummingbird),I honestly don't see this as a huge cost, especially for what it gives. And if you think initiative is so precious, you're probably taking Improved Initiative either way. The cost of taking Shape Soulmeld is whatever feat you'd actually give up to get it, i.e. your worst feat.
assuming availability of some masterwork Spellcraft toolReally? I mean, the dragon stuff I can see criticizing, but this?
and assuming that a Spellcraft check is the sort of thing your familiar can Aid Another with (Aid Another includes a DM arbitration clause, "In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial...").The familiar is actually really good at spellcraft as well, and it's practically an extension of the caster. Give me a good argument as to why it shouldn't be able to aid another.
Sure, you managed, but by using basically every resource but homebrew and variant rules, and at significant cost (the +8 initiative delta).I didn't just "manage." I beat a DC 39 (your listed challenge) by 12 without using a competence item, or a cleric buddy, or just UMDing wands. In fact, that was my point - so that if you wanted to nitpick a particular part of how I got a particular bonus, you could in fact just throw it out entirely and still beat the DC.
Edit: For comparison, the Psycarnum Metamagic trick uses five feats (Wild Talent, Psycarnum Infusion, Midnight Metamagic, Improved Essentia Capacity, Easy Metamagic), one of which can come from race selection. Incantatrix costs one (Iron Will) plus a school of spells (more valuable than a feat) and the above optimization costs the equivalent of three (race, familiar, actual feat). Psycarnum Metamagic does come online a lot later, but it lets you make literally as many persistent spells as you like, so call that a wash.1. No more complaining about dragon magazine material.
2. Five feats is a lot.
3. You can buy Iron Will.
4. This comes online once you can put 4 essentia into a feat normally, that is, level 18.
And, drumroll...
5. It only affects one spell per day.
Once per day, you can invest essentia into this feat and choose one or more spells that you know (and have prepared, if you prepare spells) to apply the effect of a metamagic feat that you know. Each spell to be affected requires the investment of a number of essentia equal to the normal spell level adjustment required by the metamagic feat (minimum 1 point of essentia).Emphasis mine.
If you're going to say Incantatrix is lame, at least use Anima Mage as a comparison.

[Flickerdart]

5. It only affects one spell per day.
Keep reading - it can be invested in once per day, but you can divide the essentia you put in among different spells. This doesn't actually matter though, because using Psycarnum Focus you never actually invest essentia - the soulmeld is merely treated as having been invested for a round, and then goes flat again.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Keep reading - it can be invested in once per day, but you can divide the essentia you put in among different spells. This doesn't actually matter though, because using Psycarnum Focus you never actually invest essentia - the soulmeld is merely treated as having been invested for a round, and then goes flat again.The maximum capacity is still going to be 5, meaning it's "treated" as having 5 essentia... enough to persist one spell.

[Flickerdart]

The maximum capacity is still going to be 5, meaning it's "treated" as having 5 essentia... enough to persist one spell.
Yeah, and then on the next turn, you recover psionic focus and infuse it again. Because you are not actually investing any essentia, goes the thinking, the 1/day thing never comes into play.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Yeah, and then on the next turn, you recover psionic focus and infuse it again. Because you are not actually investing any essentia, goes the thinking, the 1/day thing never comes into play.Interesting thought, but the 1/day comes into play for more than allocating essentia:
Once per day, you can invest essentia into this feat and choose one or more spells that you know (and have prepared, if you prepare spells) to apply the effect of a metamagic feat that you know.Emphasis mine. The one time the caster gets to "choose one or more spells [...] to apply the effect of a metamagic feat," he has 5 effective essentia to work with. After that, he can fill the essentia receptacle, but he can't choose the spells.

[nedz]

I only used Pun Pun to counter Flickerdart's argument that Tier 1 was about characters who can break the game. I was slightly concerned that this argument might derail the thread - which it has.

[ddude987]

I will use this crowbar of words to move the railtracks back in place.

On a more serious note, I think the problem is "defining" tier 0. Since it seems most people, robots, tentacle monsters, and other races represented here on this forum are in agreement that tiers are class based on equal levels of optimization, and a tier 0 class does not currently exist, that seems to be the place to start.

I think a good starting place is took at classic tier 1 classes, druid, wizard, and cleric and explain how the proposed class can do anything more than these classes can to solve encounters. If it can't, it does not go above tier 1. If it can, we have to make a consensus on a breakpoint between tier 1 and tier 0 (or tier 1+ or whatever it will be called).

[nedz]

Agreed.

It might be useful to revisit the definition of Tier 1 — from here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658)

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Examples: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite (Spell to Power Variant)

My observation was that most of these classes are required to have prepared their options ahead of time, even if that's just 15 minutes. A character who has all of the same options available on the fly might be a higher tier. Preparation can fail for all manner of reasons.

Now there might be other criteria ?

I also mentioned characters who can nova and cast 10-20 spells a round. But is this a higher tier, or just more of the same ?

There are also a number of PrCs which people have rated as +1, or more, tiers. E.g. Incantatrix. Now these are powerful classes, but do they actually exceed T1 ?

[ddude987]

I would say it all falls under tier 1. I think the breakpoint for 1 to 0 (or what have you) should be gaining tier 1 capabilities ahead of the normal curve (spell level * 2 - 1) for tier 1 classes. Maybe inbetween 1 and 0 is 1+ which is classes that are tier 1, but with more powerful capabilities such as unlimited casts per day (StP Erudite) or ways to adapt by changing prepped spells, or having spontaneous casting of an entire tier 1 list.

edit:
Additionally, prestigies could bring a class from tier 1 to tier 1+, such as incantitrix.

[SinsI]

I'd say ability to change game rules can make a class tier 0. I.e. if that class can remove limitations on Wish, or bonuses stacking, change class abilities and feats other characters or monsters have.
So if a class has Manipulate Form as class ability he will be tier 0.

[Doug Lampert]

I'd say ability to change game rules can make a class tier 0. I.e. if that class can remove limitations on Wish, or bonuses stacking, change class abilities and feats other characters or monsters have.
So if a class has Manipulate Form as class ability he will be tier 0.

+1
Manipulate Form is stronger than tier 1 and exists in the game, if a class gave something equivalent it would be stronger than the tier 1 classes.

[ddude987]

There is no denying manipulate form as a class feature would make the class stronger than tier 1 classes but that isn't defining what makes a class tier 0. Defining the bare minimum requirement for a class to be "tier 0" as "having the manipulate form ability" feels to specific.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd say ability to change game rules can make a class tier 0. I.e. if that class can remove limitations on Wish, or bonuses stacking, change class abilities and feats other characters or monsters have.
This seems like a good starting point. Tier 1 is about as powerful as you can get when working within the core RAI*. Tier 0, then, must break the fundamental assumptions of the rules somehow.


*Not Optimization as Intended, but using the basic rules of the game as they were written. That means obeying normal limits on how many skill ranks you have, on how bonuses interact, things like that.

[SinsI]

There is no denying manipulate form as a class feature would make the class stronger than tier 1 classes but that isn't defining what makes a class tier 0. Defining the bare minimum requirement for a class to be "tier 0" as "having the manipulate form ability" feels to specific.

Tier 0: has ability to change game rules and restrictions not only for itself, but for others, too: Dark Chaos Shuffle, Manipulate Form, Psychic Reformation, Psychic Chirurgery, Corpse Crafter.

[ddude987]

So classes that have those on their spell list are tier 0 by this definition?

[Hecuba]

If we're measuring specific builds, wouldn't it just be simpler to borrow the Test of Spite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?150821-Test-of-Spite-3-5) tiers?

It seems to me that a great deal of this thread is disagreement caused by people not distinguishing between the ToS tiers (which classify builds) and JaronK's tiers (which classify classes).

[ddude987]

So pun pun is tier -2... as stated earlier :smallbiggrin:

[SinsI]

So classes that have those on their spell list are tier 0 by this definition?

Those are examples of existing abilities that can modify rules and abilities in that way. But to make a class tier 0 you'd need some certain minimal amount of such abilities, so that those changes are relevant in most or all campaign situations. Chirurgery is great - but with no one having psionic powers besides you it is wasted. Same with Corpse Crafter - with no undead it is useless.

[NichG]

Here's a class for evaluation against the 'Tier 0' rubrick.

Reality-Shaper

Fort/Reflex/Will/BAB/Skill Points/HD: Irrelevant for this discussion
Class Features: Irrelevant for this discussion, except for...

Reality Shaping Class Feature Rule: A Reality-Shaper gets access to powers called 'Exclusions', 'Inclusions', and 'Revisions' which they can use to change the rules
of the game in specific ways. They gain access to new abilities as per a spellcasting progression (Wizard, for concreteness), with
new levels of these abilities coming online at Lv1,3,5,etc

Reality Shaping Ability Learning Rule: A Reality-Shaper gains three known abilities each level. Multiple copies of a single ability can be taken.

Reality Shaping Application Rule: A given Exclusion, Inclusion, or Revision can only be applied in a single fashion at a time. For example: If a Revision is used to change one rule, that same Revision cannot be used to change another, different rule until the first usage is turned off.

Reality Shaping Range: The range of a Reality-Shaper's effects is 20ft per level, beyond which reality goes back to normal.

Overlapping Auras: When two Reality-Shaper auras overlap in a way such that they are mutually contradictory, dominance is established with an opposed Charisma+Reality-Shaper level check. The winner's aura remains dominant in areas of overlap for 24 hours.

Exclusions: These can be toggled with a standard action and remain on or off in that state until the Reality-Shaper changes them. An Exclusion prevents some particular ability or rule from functioning within the Reality-Shaper's aura.



Discriminatory Rules (Reality-Shaper 1)
Pick a particular [Type] or [Sub-Type] of creature - all benefits from that type or sub-type are suppressed.

Mundanes Cannot Have Nice Things (Reality-Shaper 2)
Within the Reality-Shaper's aura, characters cannot make attacks that are not somehow supernatural, either via weapon enchantments (or having the attack itself magically buffed), or by virtue of being a spell.

Gravity is just the Fevered Dream of a Madman (Reality-Shaper 3)
Creatures do not fall.

Don't All Attack At Once (Reality-Shaper 4)
No one target can be attacked by more than one person in each round.

School Ban (Reality-Shaper 5)
All magic of a specified school cannot be cast or have any effect within the Reality-Shaper's aura. Existing spell effects of this school are temporarily suppressed.

Classism (Reality-Shaper 6)
You can completely shut down all powers of a single class and turn levels in that class into dead levels within your aura.

But I don't want to die at -10 (Reality-Shaper 8)
Creatures cannot die of hitpoint damage within the Reality-Shaper's field

Apotheosis (Reality-Shaper 9)
Any single specific piece of bolded rules-text can be disabled.


Inclusions: These can be toggled with a standard action and remain on or off in that state until the Reality-Shaper changes them. An Inclusion creates some new rule that anyone within the Reality-Shaper's aura can take advantage of.


Nose Goes (Reality-Shaper 1)
Pick a specific kind of roll and a specific out-of-character action. Anyone who performs the specified out-of-character action while making the specific kind of roll gains a bonus to the roll equal to your Reality-Shaper class level.

New Feat (Reality-Shaper 2)
Invent a new feat in collaboration with the DM. Anyone within your aura can take this feat. If they leave your aura, the feat is not lost but is suppressed until they return.

New Skill (Reality-Shaper 3)
Invent a new skill in collaboration with the DM. Anyone within your aura can take ranks of and use this skill. If they leave your aura, the ranks are not lost but are suppressed until they return.

New Class (Reality-Shaper 4)
Your aura makes a particular bit of homebrew into a reality. Design a new class with the DM - people within your aura can take this new class, which reverts to racial HD if they leave your aura (but repairs to the new class if they re-enter).

The Chain Rule (Reality-Shaper 5)
New Rule: Anyone within your aura gains a Reality-Shaper field 5ft in radius that counts as your aura.

Fighter Fix (Reality-Shaper 6)
You may insert a class feature from an existing class into another class at whatever level you choose.

New Physics (Reality-Shaper 7)
With the DM, create a new planar environment tag. Your aura has this environment tag.

Win Button (Reality-Shaper 9)
When one of the following conditions (choose one) holds, you have won the encounter and your immediate enemies are forced by the rules to step down and cease hindering you. This also applies in reverse, so be careful.

- There are twice as many allies remaining than enemies remaining.
- You and your allies are all clustered adjacent to eachother and are all at least 800ft away from each of your starting positions at the beginning of the encounter.
- 6 rounds pass from the start of combat.
- An ally character casts the same spell for three consecutive rounds (quickened/etc don't count as an extra round).
- Designate one character on your side as the 'leader' (the enemies will do the same). If the leader falls, its over.


Revisions: These can be toggled with a standard action and remain on or off in that state until the Reality-Shaper changes them. A Revision can alter a specific rules-term into a different rules-term in a particular rule.



Rock Paper Scissors Spock (Reality-Shaper 1)
You can replace the type of save of an effect with a different type of save.

Interchangeable Parts (Reality-Shaper 1)
You can replace a stat used by or referred to by an ability with a different stat.

Fudging the Numbers (Reality-Shaper 2)
Choose any number that appears in a rule and increase or decrease it by 1.

Misspell (Reality-Shaper 2)
You can change one letter of one rule. The resultant rule must be composed of correctly
spelled words and grammatically correct structures in English.

Damage Mastery (Reality-Shaper 3)
You can replace one damage type with another in any rule (for DR, resistances, immunities, damage dealt, etc).

A matter of units (Reality-Shaper 3)
You can change the units on a measurement in a single rule. The old and new units
must belong to the allowed list. The allowed units are:

Distance: inches, feet, meters
Long Distance: furlongs (1/8 mile), miles, leagues (3.4 miles)
Short Times: seconds, rounds, minutes
Long Times: hours, days, weeks
Weights: ounces (1/16th of a pound), lbs, kg (2.2lbs)
Currency: sp, gp, pp

Re-requisite (Reality-Shaper 4)
You can change one prerequisite to a feat or class to whatever you like. Those who do not qualify for the new rules-text lose access to those abilities.

Action Stock Market (Reality-Shaper 5)
You can change the type of activation action for an ability either up or down one category:

Immediate <-> Swift <-> Move <-> Standard <-> Full Round

If you take this ability multiple times, they can stack.

REDACTED (Reality-Shaper 6)
Exclude a single word from any rule.

Character Rewrite (Reality-Shaper 8)
Pick one character - while in your aura, you can choose to alter one of:

- Their narrative function (hero, villain, etc)
- Their build (broad strokes - swap out all Wizard levels for Fighter)
- Their relationships with other NPCs (Luke, I am your father [now]!)




So, Tier 0?

[Jeff the Green]

No actually: It's never been clear what Tier a Spirit Shaman is. I've seen several quite long threads on this question and people normally split 50-50 between T1 and T2, with a few outsiders claiming lower tiers. Now I don't want to derail this thread into re-hashing this debate but this question is part of what led me to consider this view of the higher tiers

Oh, no I wasn't saying that it is Tier 2, just that there are good arguments for putting it there (which may or may be countered by better arguments for Tier 1). Wu Jen I think is more solidly Tier 2. Yes, it has the spirit binding line, but DN has planar binding. It has a few broken 9th-level spells, but not many more than Sorcerer or Psion and its lower-level spell selection is much less versatile than the things a sorcerer can pull off (e.g. no shadow conjuration and kin).

And even if that still isn't tier 2 by virtue of its few very powerful spells, I'm pretty sure I could come up with a list that would make it tier 2 because it has exactly one game-breaking spell at each level and merely solid ones aside from that.

[SinsI]

Oh, no I wasn't saying that it is Tier 2, just that there are good arguments for putting it there (which may or may be countered by better arguments for Tier 1). Wu Jen I think is more solidly Tier 2. Yes, it has the spirit binding line, but DN has planar binding. It has a few broken 9th-level spells, but not many more than Sorcerer or Psion and its lower-level spell selection is much less versatile than the things a sorcerer can pull off (e.g. no shadow conjuration and kin).

And even if that still isn't tier 2 by virtue of its few very powerful spells, I'm pretty sure I could come up with a list that would make it tier 2 because it has exactly one game-breaking spell at each level and merely solid ones aside from that.

It depends on the power level of the Wu Jen's spell list - if it can be used to solve any problem, it is Tier 1. If it can't, it is Tier 3.
I'd say Tier 3, since she is missing a lot of things 9h level spells can do.
Same with Spirit Shaman.

A class can be Tier 2 only if it has the flexibility to be built (using its class features) to solve any problem. Fixed list casters rarely have that.


Here's a class for evaluation against the 'Tier 0' rubrick.
So, Tier 0?

Looks good

[Flickerdart]

It depends on the power level of the Wu Jen's spell list - if it can be used to solve any problem, it is Tier 1. If it can't, it is Tier 3.
Well, let's give the classic challenges a shot - if the Wu Jen is T1, it should be able to solve the encounters with only a few spells, or otherwise outperform a lower-tier class specialized in that role. From memory, they were:

Pass through a dragon's lair and slay the dragon in single combat.
The wizard's benchmarks here are Invisibility, Silence, and Alter Self-type spells to acquire necessary movement types while staying undetectable. Once they find the dragon, Shivering Touch makes short work of it.

Wu Jen gets Alter Self (and its big brother, Shapechange), and Invisibility, but not Silence. They do eventually get Ethereal Jaunt, though, and can use Spirit Self to scout undetected. They don't have Shivering Touch, but an array of protective spells like Displacement and Heart of Water should see them through while they attack with Entangling Scarf, Creeping Darkness, and various other really nice debuffs. Wu Jen can use Spirit Binding to bring along elementals keyed to the dragon's weakness, too. They're not as good as the wizard here, but only because Shivering Touch is ridiculous. I'd say they do about as well as a druid would. Body Outside Body and Giant Size both make appearances here as hilarious Wu Jen-only options that really give them an edge. Surelife lets them become immune to the dragon's breath weapon.

Help an army defend an outpost against an approaching invasion.
Spirit binding, Animate Dead, and summoning really shines here. Stockpiling fire shuriken is also handy for equipping your men. Ice Blast is great against multiple weak foes, Ghost Light makes them flee in terror.

Make contact with an underground resistance and make them trust you.
Secret Signs is amazing for secretive communication. Your standard Charms and Dominates happen here, too. I'm really bored of reading this spell list, now, though. Damn thing is really long.

Seems to me that Wu Jen wreck these things just as well as any wizard.

[Jeff the Green]

It depends on the power level of the Wu Jen's spell list - if it can be used to solve any problem, it is Tier 1. If it can't, it is Tier 3.
I'd say Tier 3, since she is missing a lot of things 9h level spells can do.
Same with Spirit Shaman.

A class can be Tier 2 only if it has the flexibility to be built (using its class features) to solve any problem. Fixed list casters rarely have that.



Looks good
I thought it was primarily about the number of campaign-/encounter-wrecking things a given build of the class could do. Sorcerer has a couple because his list of known spells is short. Wu Jen has a couple because her class list is short and doesn't contain a number of the versatility tricks a sorcerer can pull off.

[SinsI]

I thought it was primarily about the number of campaign-/encounter-wrecking things a given build of the class could do. Sorcerer has a couple because his list of known spells is short. Wu Jen has a couple because her class list is short and doesn't contain a number of the versatility tricks a sorcerer can pull off.
It is also about ability to solve a particular campaign. If you can solve anything using one build, you are T1. If for any given problem you can make a build that solves it, it is T2. If there are things you can't solve at all using class abilities, it is T3 or worse.
I.e. let's ask wizard, sorcerer and Wu Jen to determine what exactly happened in an area.
Wizard casts Hindsight and gives you the anwer, so he is T1. You can build a sorcerer to know Hindsight, so he is T2. Wu Jen has no spells capable of doing that, so he is T3 or worse.


Well, let's give the classic challenges a shot - if the Wu Jen is T1, it should be able to solve the encounters with only a few spells, or otherwise outperform a lower-tier class specialized in that role. From memory, they were:

Seems to me that Wu Jen wreck these things just as well as any wizard.
To be a T1, you have to be able to solve any encounter. Classic encounters are low difficulty (any of them can be solved by Wish, so Wu Jen can do them no problem).

But it is easy to see that since Wu Jen has a limited list of 9th level spells, he can't do anything to problems that require 9th level spells he doesn't have: the country with him is covered with antimagic field created by an artifact? No Mordenkainen's Disjunction, so Wu Jen acts as a glorified commoner...

[Flickerdart]

To be a T1, you have to be able to solve any encounter. Classic encounters are low difficulty (any of them can be solved by Wish, so Wu Jen can do them no problem).
Wish isn't an option for the majority of the game, and doesn't really play into the tier system all that much. You might notice that the Druid and every Cleric without the Magic domain don't have Disjunction either, and both are T1s, so your example isn't relevant.

[ddude987]

It is also about ability to solve a particular campaign. If you can solve anything using one build, you are T1. If for any given problem you can make a build that solves it, it is T2. If there are things you can't solve at all using class abilities, it is T3 or worse.
I.e. let's ask wizard, sorcerer and Wu Jen to determine what exactly happened in an area.
Wizard casts Hindsight and gives you the anwer, so he is T1. You can build a sorcerer to know Hindsight, so he is T2. Wu Jen has no spells capable of doing that, so he is T3 or worse.

You're example is making an assumption that the only way to solve this particular encounter is the spell hindsight. When checking for ways to solve encounters, general encounters are proposed followed by multiple solutions. Its like if I said there is an encounter where an npc will do 100 damage unmigigatable damage to every PC before they are allowed to combat him. Thus the encounter can only be won if you have 100 or more hp right? Guess fighter is tier 1.

[Piggy Knowles]

Ninth-level spells are a poor benchmark regardless. A sorcerer with shapechange or gate as a 9th-level spell known is functionally tier one at that point. Heck, for that matter, so is a healer - gate spamming can be the answer to basically any possible scenario. Wu jens get shapechange at level 17, so even in this odd scenario where only hindsight will do, they can just turn into a black ethergaunt or something and cast it. But again, if we're basing tier off of what happens in the high levels, then a truenamer is arguably tier one.

What's more important to determining the tier of a class is what happens in levels 5-15, in my opinion. Things don't really break down quite as much at that point.

In any case, a wu jen is probably tier one, and might be tier three. There's no possible way I can see it as tier two though. And none of this gets us any closer to determining whether or not a tier zero is necessary (spoiler alert: probably not) and if so, what it is.