Which is stronger?

[Yael]

Thread.

In terms of general balance, Ethernal Blade or Master of the Nine?

[erok0809]

Assuming you meant the Eternal Blade, according to the "Tier List" for Prestige Classes, found here:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1573.0

The Eternal Blade is a "Good to Great" PrC, while the Master of Nine is a "Bad to Awful" PrC, so the Eternal Blade wins. I can't give any reasons though, although you could read that post/topic and see if they give reasons.

I'm not sure if that answered your question, since I'm not sure exactly what you mean by general balance, but that's the best I can do.

[Yael]

Assuming you meant the Eternal Blade, according to the "Tier List" for Prestige Classes, found here:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1573.0

The Eternal Blade is a "Good to Great" PrC, while the Master of Nine is a "Bad to Awful" PrC, so the Eternal Blade wins. I can't give any reasons though, although you could read that post/topic and see if they give reasons.

I'm not sure if that answered your question, since I'm not sure exactly what you mean by general balance, but that's the best I can do.

Wow, didn't know this existed, it helps, thanks.

[Bakkan]

One of the main reasons why Master of Nine is considered to be pretty bad is its prerequisites.

It requires five feats to enter, one of which is terrible (Dodge, though it has slightly better replacements available), one of which is only really useful to a Swordsage (Adaptive Style), one of which is useless unless you're an unarmed combatant (Improved Unarmed Strike), one of which is situational and replicated by magic items (Blind-Fight), and one of which is good (Improved Initiative). Furthermore, none of the feats really synergize at all; you'd almost never find all of these feats on one character unless they were going into Master of Nine.

To meet the maneuver prerequisites, you must either 1) lose out on BAB by taking levels of Swordsage, 2) delay class features by multiclassing Warblade and Crusader, or 3) take Martial Study at least once (three times if you're a Crusader).

To meet the skill requirements you must purchase 40 skill ranks. Some of the maneuver skills are good, but there are only eight to choose from, so you're likely to not be able to get all the other skills you want if you're building for Master of Nine.

A non-human without bonus feats cannot start taking the class until level 13 because of the feat prereqs. A Warblade can take it at level 10 by using bonus feats for prerequisites and Martial Study.

Given all of that, the class features are underwhelming. You get a whole lot of maneuvers known and readied, but you get little help in the action economy. Dual Stance is nice, but has an anaemic duration. Perfect Form is nearly worthless. Counter Stance gives a litle bit of action economy, but it's purely reactive. Mastery of Nine gives a pretty tiny bonus given what you got through to get to this point.

EDIT: Minimum levels for single-classed characters to access the class:
Crusader: 22 (have to spend 5 normal feats on prerequisites and 3 normal feats on Martial Study), 19 if Human.
Swordsage: 13 (have to spend 5 normal feats on prerequisites), 10 if Human.
Warblade: 10 (have to spend 3 normal feats and 2 bonus feats on prerequisties and one normal feat on Martial Study). Being Human gives an extra feat but doesn't let you access the class any earier.

[Socratov]

Eternal blades maybe makes you be an Elf (sub-par choice) but it's benefits outwiegh being an elf: free knowledge devotion, free pokedex, extra free turn every combat encounter, the ability to ignore any form of damage reduction (can you say no to dr/epic?) and it works with warblade's int synergy freatly (pump that Int, get an extra 3 levels of Swashbuckler, rest in warblade & eternal blade) and you get to sweep the floor with anything on your path. And your party actually is helped by your abilities as well (knowledge devition thingie works as well as an AC debuff).

It more then beats the pulp out of Mo9's only useful ability: dual stance. The rest is either a puny bonus, or something not incredibly useful. so, yeah, eternal blade any day of the week.

[icefractal]

2) delay class features by multiclassing Warblade and Crusader,Mot9 does have some annoying prerequisites, but I'm going to take a bit of issue with calling this one undesirable. ToB classes multiclass really well; a initiator with a splash of a second class is almost always stronger than a single-classed one.

Simple Entries:
Human Crusader 5/Unarmed Swordsage 2
Any Warblade 5/Unarmed Swordsage 2

[Red Fel]

The thing about the Tier System for PrCs, as opposed to the Tier System in general, is that it basically looks at how the PrC modifies its entry class. That is, does it make the class better, by giving it more versatility and options, or does it make it worse, by cutting off some of its useful features?

Let's start with Eternal Blade. In terms of maneuvers, it requires either Devoted Spirit or Diamond Mind, but because it has a BAB requirement of +10 (!), you need a full BAB class to enter it if you want to take all 10 levels. That means Swordsage is not your entry vehicle.

Eternal Blade gives you lots of useful bonuses across the board, as mentioned; in particular, its Int-based features synergize nicely with Warblade. If you enter Eternal Blade at level 11, a Crusader loses out on Mettle, Steely Resolve, and another Smite; Warblade loses out on two bonus feats, Battle Skill, Battle Mastery, and Stance Mastery. And what do you get for your trade-in? Gain an Int bonus against a creature type or a free maneuver, take a swift action to overcome DR, bonus on knowledge checks, Int to AC as dodge bonus, enemies take your Int as an AC penalty, and of course, the awe-inspiring Island in Time capstone. You get a lot of useful powers for your investment. That's why this is generally seen as an upgrade from Warblade or Crusader.

Now, let's look at Master of Nine. It requires five feats, ten ranks in four different skills, and at least one maneuver from each of six different disciplines. Note first that the only class that can natively access six different disciplines is Swordsage; any other class would have to multiclass. On the plus side, you don't have to be human to max out your Mo9 levels; even assuming you took normal (as opposed to Unarmed adaptation) Swordsage, you could still take all of the requisite feats in time to take all of Mo9. You could dip Warblade to get your additional maneuvers faster, and grab some bonus feats; or focus Warblade and dip Swordsage. Either result is the same.

So, assuming you took straight Swordsage, you would be giving up five levels. Really, all you miss out on in particular is Dual Boost. What does Mo9 give you for that? Well, you gain a total of 8 maneuvers known, 5 readied, and two stances. You can spend a maximum of 10 rounds per day in two stances (contrast with Warblade's capstone, which allows it as a permanent ability). You gain +1 to the save DCs on your maneuvers, can change your stance as part of a counter, and gain a bonus based on readying a lot of maneuvers. These abilities are painfully situational. The Dual Stance ability is weak compared to the Warblade ability; the +1 DC is nothing to write home about; the ability to chance stances as part of a counter is one you won't use often; and the capstone - +2 to attack rolls, and +1 to damage for every discipline readied - is solidly meh. Even assuming you dipped enough classes to ready something from every discipline, +9 to damage is unimpressive at high levels. Remember also that this capstone applies only to strikes, not to boosts, counters, or normal attacks. And it's strapped onto a chassis with the Swordsage's weaker BAB progression. All that investment, and it really doesn't diversify your abilities with anything remotely useful. It stinks on ice.

And that's the point. Eternal Blade adds flavor, power, and new class features. Mo9 adds some situational abilities that do nothing or that you'll never use. Yes, it increases your maneuver pool, but you get adequate maneuvers from the base classes - Mo9 is nothing exceptional in that regard. Further, EB has an outrageously good capstone that scales with your abilities - if your full attack is awesome, IiT is awesome. Mo9's capstone is lackluster at best, and does not improve with you.

That's why EB is seen as an improvement over its base classes (and is thus a +1 PrC) while Mo9 is seen as a decrease in abilities (and thus -1, or at best +0).

[Yael]

While on the topic, Bloodclaw Master or straight Warblade??

[Socratov]

While on the topic, Bloodclaw Master or straight Warblade??

I'd go for straight warblade, maybe with a dip in barbarian to get spiritlion totem for a real pounce instead of some knockoff effect (lvl 3 Bloodclaw Master ability). I'd at best take a 2 lvl dip in Bloodclaw Master for the increased movement speed, superior 2 weapon fighting and claws of the beast (and subsequently push your strength into the stratosphere). Plus over the 5 levels at earliest (7-11) warblade gives +3 known, +1 readied, +1 stance. Bloodclaw Master gives 3 known, 1 readied. Plus you (at those levels) miss out on, Battle Cunning, Battle Skill and a bonus feat. I think warblade gives more at the moment you can enter Bloodclaw Master. Now if the Bloodclaw master had more dexterity synergy (claws of the beast adding full dex on both in addition to the normal str bonus on twf), a real pounce ability like Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian and lost the costs to Rending Claws and Pouncing Strike of giving up a strike/boost for those abilities then the Bloodclaw Master would have something to add over general warblade.

I do love the flavour though... A lot.

[Red Fel]

I'd go for straight warblade, maybe with a dip in barbarian to get spiritlion totem for a real pounce instead of some knockoff effect (lvl 3 Bloodclaw Master ability).

I agree. Warblade's progression is solid, the abilities and maneuvers are great; even if you never reach its capstone (which is magnificent), it's an easy-to-learn, easy-to-play chassis that remains effective from 1 to 20.

You'll note that Bloodclaw Master is treated as an improvement over its base entry. That's true, to an extent - Bloodclaw Master gives you some very useful abilities. Rage-like Shifting, full Str to certain off-hand weapons, TWF bonuses and a mini-pounce, Rend, and Scent. These are very useful.

But consider the class itself. Stylistically, it more resembles Swordsage (with dual wielding, partial BAB, and use of daggers or Tiger Claw weapons) than, say, Warblade or Crusader. That's not to say Warblade or Crusader can't get in, but rather that it seems a more natural progression for a Tiger Claw-focused Swordsage. Yes, Bloodclaw Master is obviously going to give you great improvements over the basic Swordsage model.

The question, however, is whether it's an improvement over Warblade. And the answer to that is, simply: It depends. Generally, I would say no, but here's the reason.

If you're going to play a Tiger Claw-focused Warblade (which you can do, they get Tiger Claw) you're going to see a lot of benefits from going Bloodclaw Master. Benefits to using Tiger Claw weapons, stances, etc. But here's the thing. If you're dual wielding, you're not going to want a Tiger Claw stance. You're going to want Punishing Stance, so that you can add 1d6 damage on every hit. And that loses part of your Tiger Claw Synergy ability. Also, you're probably going to want to use a proper weapon over your 1d4 claws. So that ability goes bye-bye. Finally, as Socratov mentioned, a single-level dip in Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian gets you Pounce, which is vastly superior to its Bloodclaw Master cousin.

Basically, as a Warblade, there are things you can do that make you substantially more intimidating. Yes, if you planned to dual-wield daggers or claws, Bloodclaw Master is a very solid choice for you, particularly coming out of Warblade, with its higher BAB, access to Iron Heart, and Discipline Focus abilities (did you choose Tiger Claw? I knew you did), but in my mind, that's situational. Because if you didn't plan to go with a Tiger Claw focus - and remember, Bloodclaw Master grants you only Tiger Claw maneuvers - you're blowing levels on this.