Knight - Build Help

[Dreyven]

Hello Everyone,

I'm currently playing a lvl 4 Human Knight and need some help about his further carreer.

My stats are 18/16/18/bad/bad/bad
I use a Ranseur + combat reflexes for fighting my foes.

I was planning on taking a level of fighter as my 5th level, as i can't really enter any prestige classes before 6th level anyway and i can really use the feat. Then i'd planned to take 2 tevels of tactical soldier.

But what to do after that?

Is it worth taking tactical soldier any further?
Would 2-3 levels of knight protector be worthwhile for the big boost to will saves and potentially supreme cleave?

And most importantly, what other prestige class should i start to aim for? (Ideally without spellcasting and full bab progression)

[Vaz]

The tables are sadly broken as a result of the forum recode a few months ago, but here is the Iron Chef entries for the Tactical Soldier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?214198-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-XXIV/page8).

In general, Tactical Soldier isn't really worth it whatsoever.

[prufock]

I'm currently playing a lvl 4 Human Knight and need some help about his further carreer.

My stats are 18/16/18/bad/bad/bad
A knight with bad charisma really isn't taking advantage of his most unique class features. You are low on knight's challenges per day, your challenges don't last as long, and the save DCs are low. Multiclassing is going to mean your knight's challenge abilities lag behind even more, so I'm not sure what you're getting out of knight, except


a Ranseur + combat reflexes for fighting my foes.
Bulwark of Defense still works for a sweeping build.


I was planning on taking a level of fighter as my 5th level, as i can't really enter any prestige classes before 6th level anyway and i can really use the feat.
For what feat? Knight 5 gives you a bonus feat from a limited list, and they aren't that good, but the mounted ones are okay.


Then i'd planned to take 2 tevels of tactical soldier.
Why? The abilities are OK, but kind of situational. Flanking from any angle isn't bad, but you can always 5' step to get into a proper flanking position. Sidestep is an all right feat.


Would 2-3 levels of knight protector be worthwhile for the big boost to will saves and potentially supreme cleave?
Have you thought about just going into crusader? I probably would have stopped knight at 3 in your case, but Knight 4/Crusader X could be good. Stances and maneuvers can replicate a lot of what the other classes offer, with more versatility and power.

[Segev]

This thread has me curious if there's a way to optimize around the Knight's level 17 ability and make a build that is actually moderately effective all the way up.

[Dreyven]

A knight with bad charisma really isn't taking advantage of his most unique class features. You are low on knight's challenges per day, your challenges don't last as long, and the save DCs are low. Multiclassing is going to mean your knight's challenge abilities lag behind even more


Well it was either dumping Charisma or one of the physical stats as theese are rolled stats.
And because it was clear to me from the beginning that i'd class out of Knight as soon as i got everything i wanted i ditched charisma as even with a good charisma the multiclassing would kill the challenge dc anyway.



so I'm not sure what you're getting out of knight, except Bulwark of Defense still works for a sweeping build.

Like you said, Bulwark of defense was a big point.
As was full movement in Medium Armor (mithral full plate) and the good will save.


For what feat? Knight 5 gives you a bonus feat from a limited list, and they aren't that good, but the mounted ones are okay.

Whatever feat i require to give myself access into the next prestige class probably. The Feat at lvl 6 is already spoken for, it's gonna be Improved Combat Reflexes (2 AoO per enemy, just like bab progression would allow on a full attack)

And i guess i could take a mounted bonus feat from knight 5 but chances are that i'm not going to do Mounted combat, probably not at all.


Why? The abilities are OK, but kind of situational. Flanking from any angle isn't bad, but you can always 5' step to get into a proper flanking position. Sidestep is an all right feat.

Mostly for Sidestep to be honest, it has really steep requirements and with a reach weapon the ability to repositon alot seems to be important. Also, Bulwark of Defense only works if the Enemy starts his turn in a square threatened by me, which makes Positioning even more important.


Have you thought about just going into crusader? I probably would have stopped knight at 3 in your case, but Knight 4/Crusader X could be good. Stances and maneuvers can replicate a lot of what the other classes offer, with more versatility and power.
Not allowed, take it up with my GM.
But i'm actually fine with that, it gives me the Ability to take obscure prestige classes!


This thread has me curious if there's a way to optimize around the Knight's level 17 ability and make a build that is actually moderately effective all the way up.

Yes and no. I can see a full knight being effective.

But i don't think you can boost your saves High enough that you can NEVER fail a safe with the lvl 17 feature, not without heavy multiclassing atleast. And even then you'd still need to get evasion and mettle.

But if you would manage that + a high touch ac you might become totally immune to enemy magic! (except things that don't allow saves)

[Rebel7284]

Crusader not allowed while Dragon Magazine is? Ehhhh.

You can go War Mind and get access to some powers (Expansion!) on a full BAB D10 chasis, and, of course, being able to attack two squares at once.

Edit: Right, horrible mental stats... It may still be a good idea if you have a 10 and can pump with items.

Otherwise I have to say, the best choice may be, gasp, fighter levels. Pick up more feat chains like Karmic Strike, etc.

[prufock]

Well it was either dumping Charisma or one of the physical stats as theese are rolled stats.
And because it was clear to me from the beginning that i'd class out of Knight as soon as i got everything i wanted i ditched charisma as even with a good charisma the multiclassing would kill the challenge dc anyway.

Like you said, Bulwark of defense was a big point.
As was full movement in Medium Armor (mithral full plate) and the good will save.

There are a lot of other ways to get faster movement, though. I think you probably would have been better off going with a feat or magic item for this, or one level of barbarian or Druidic Avenger (if you really need the Will boost, though this delays your BAB). Both would give you the added speed (30' in medium armor) and you'd get rage or whirling frenzy, which would be more useful in the long run than Test of Mettle, which seems like a wasted class feature. If you can still rebuild or retrain, one of these might be a better option.

If not, I still don't think Tactical Soldier or Knight Protector are particularly good choices. Improved Combat Reflexes (Dragon Mag one, not Epic) is awesome and I agree you should take it asap. Sidestep is useful, but has crummy prereqs (RAW you still need to meet those, since it doesn't say you don't - if I'm wrong on this than go ahead and take it). Honestly I like Stand Still or Hold the Line better. Stand Still is pretty cool once you get two AOOs per round (one to force them to stop, one to deal damage).

As for where to go next... whirling frenzy barbarian may still be useful, since more attacks per round on a full BAB / high strength character is always good. Fighter can work to an extent for the lockdown type feats you want.

EDIT: Depending on the vestiges you choose, Binder could be helpful with this build as well.

PS, is Tome of Battle out completely, or does your DM have some issue with Crusader specifically?

[Dreyven]

If not, I still don't think Tactical Soldier or Knight Protector are particularly good choices. Improved Combat Reflexes (Dragon Mag one, not Epic) is awesome and I agree you should take it asap. Sidestep is useful, but has crummy prereqs (RAW you still need to meet those, since it doesn't say you don't - if I'm wrong on this than go ahead and take it). Honestly I like Stand Still or Hold the Line better. Stand Still is pretty cool once you get two AOOs per round (one to force them to stop, one to deal damage).


The only reason i'm taking Tactical Soldier is because i don't need to meet the prerequisites, me and my dm agree that the class doesn't make any sense otherwise (You'd need 4 feats at lvl 7 to both enter and qualify for sidestep, that's more feats than you actually have if you aren't human or a fighter)



As for where to go next... whirling frenzy barbarian may still be useful, since more attacks per round on a full BAB / high strength character is always good. Fighter can work to an extent for the lockdown type feats you want.

EDIT: Depending on the vestiges you choose, Binder could be helpful with this build as well.

PS, is Tome of Battle out completely, or does your DM have some issue with Crusader specifically?

I'm pretty sure Barbarians can't be lawful at all.
I'm pretty sure Knights can't be not lawful.

That doesn't seem to work well with each other.

And yes, all maneuvers and stances are out (i could probably play a crusader without maneuvers and stances XD)

[Flickerdart]

I'm pretty sure Barbarians can't be lawful at all.
I'm pretty sure Knights can't be not lawful.

That doesn't seem to work well with each other.
An ex-Knight (a Knight that is no longer Lawful) loses Knight's Challenge, but with your poor CHA you probably weren't using it, and if you want Tactical Soldier and are interested in flanking, then you would lose all your Knight's Challenge uses for violating your code anyway. So if you abandon your code and become a barbarian, you keep all the stuff you care about.

[prufock]

The only reason i'm taking Tactical Soldier is because i don't need to meet the prerequisites, me and my dm agree that the class doesn't make any sense otherwise (You'd need 4 feats at lvl 7 to both enter and qualify for sidestep, that's more feats than you actually have if you aren't human or a fighter)
I agree with this ruling; it isn't RAW, but it makes a lot more sense. Nothing in the Minis errata about it, but fair enough.


I'm pretty sure Barbarians can't be lawful at all.
I'm pretty sure Knights can't be not lawful.
Right you are. Druidic avenger has no such limitation, though, you just have to be LN in this case. It delays your BAB, which I figure you don't want to do.

You could go ex-Knight as Flickerdart mentions. I know Fighting Challenge is probably still somewhat relevant at this level, but it has few uses per day and short duration. Test of Mettle likely isn't useful at all right now with the low save DC. Plus you're losing a challenge every time you take the flanking bonus from Tac Soldier.

Really, you've gotten all you want out of knight at this point. Fighter, Barbarian/Druidic Avenger, or Binder are probably your best bets rather than a PrC.

A level of cloistered cleric for 3 domains or domain feats is also a good option, despite not being able to choose spells or really use turn undead. Your few turnings per day can be used for divine feats as well. Destiny, Dream, Fate, Force, Hatred, Hunger, Luck, Magic, Pride, Renewal, Retribution, Time, or Travel are reasonable domain choices; Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, and Law Devotion are good choices for domain feats.