Water Elementals underwater

[Akkristor]

How do the rules for fighting underwater affect a water elemental (summoned or otherwise)? At first glance, it seems that even in it's own element, the elemental is kinda hosed. a -2 on all attack rolls and only half damage, since it's slam attack is a bludgeoning weapon. The Elemental's entry and the water subtype (at least the rules posted in the SRD, currently away from books) don't seem to indicate that it can ignore those penalties. In fact, the only thing I can see so far is the first sentence for Underwater Combat, which states "Land-based creatures can have considerable difficulty when fighting in water." (emphasis own)


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#aquaticTerrain

[Broken Crown]

I'm pretty sure Stormwrack specifies that this penalty doesn't apply to creatures with a Swim speed. I'd have to look it up to verify that, though.

[PraxisVetli]

If theres a body of water, with hostile water elementals in it, WHY would you go there?
I mean, RAW, there isn't a lot they can do, but there should be some houseruling here.
They should be nigh untouchable.

Maybe. Elementals always seemed kinda lame, at least until those ones in Complete Arcane and the evil ones (can't remember names, the water one was called somethin assassin, had sharks and saguahin livin in it).
Those I wouldn't fight underwater.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Rules for this is in the monster listing, one moment.

I thought it was, maybe universal monster abilities or subtypes?

[Necroticplague]

Well, their vortex ability can be pretty lethal for those who don't breath underwater, and their water mastery somewhat negates the penalties (though not completely).

[Khedrac]

If you read the SRD carefully that table is for the effects on Land-Based creatures fighting underwater (it's the top paragraph under the heading "Underwater Combat". Since the Water Elemental is not a land-based creature I don't believe the table applies to it.

[Graypairofsocks]

If theres a body of water, with hostile water elementals in it, WHY would you go there?
I mean, RAW, there isn't a lot they can do, but there should be some houseruling here.
They should be nigh untouchable.

Maybe. Elementals always seemed kinda lame, at least until those ones in Complete Arcane and the evil ones (can't remember names, the water one was called somethin assassin, had sharks and saguahin livin in it).
Those I wouldn't fight underwater.

Do you mean the Avatars of Elemental Evil?

I believe the one you are talking about is the Waterveiled Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm4_gallery/98663.jpg).

I think it also had some ability to be completely hidden in water (or similar).

It didn't have creatures living in it though.

[Trundlebug]

If you read the SRD carefully that table is for the effects on Land-Based creatures fighting underwater (it's the top paragraph under the heading "Underwater Combat". Since the Water Elemental is not a land-based creature I don't believe the table applies to it.

This. Also I recall something about a swim speed and underwater penalties, but I'm still 30 min from home so...

[DeadMech]

I kinda wonder why a fire elemental needs dark vision. It really should have been a permanent light source itself.

[Khedrac]

This. Also I recall something about a swim speed and underwater penalties, but I'm still 30 min from home so...
The Swim Speed reduces the penalties, but by my reading it still only applies to the land-based creatures with swim speeds.

[Azraile]

well I would think water elementals would move awfully fast in water.... .and if there made of water.... unless you dye them or there is some other way of seeing them I would think they would count as having full concealment....

Water in water..... thats 100% concealment to me

[georgie_leech]

Remember that any argument for applying extra bonuses to Water Elementals in water would also apply to Air Elementals in air. Same substance, same control...

[Azraile]

most air elementals are made of cloudy stuff if you fight one in a cloud though your retarded

[Akkristor]

I'm pretty sure Stormwrack specifies that this penalty doesn't apply to creatures with a Swim speed. I'd have to look it up to verify that, though.

Thank you, I managed to find it. Page 21 sidebar.
Creatures with natural swim speeds are not penalized for the following attacks:
-Tentacles
-Constrict, Rend, Rake
-Any natural attack made by an elemental with the water subtype (that is, water elementals can use their slam attacks without penalty underwater)



If theres a body of water, with hostile water elementals in it, WHY would you go there?
I mean, RAW, there isn't a lot they can do, but there should be some houseruling here.
They should be nigh untouchable.

Maybe. Elementals always seemed kinda lame, at least until those ones in Complete Arcane and the evil ones (can't remember names, the water one was called somethin assassin, had sharks and saguahin livin in it).
Those I wouldn't fight underwater.

I was actually looking into summoning Water Elementals for an aquatic portion of a campaign. I'm playing a homebrewed Druid variant focused entirely around Elementals. No animal companion, Spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally spells can only summon creatures of the elemental subtype, and Elemental Wild Shape instead of Animal/Plant wild shape.

[Troacctid]

Complete Mage has an alternate class feature that lets you have an elemental companion instead of an animal companion.

[FidgetySquirrel]

most air elementals are made of cloudy stuff if you fight one in a cloud though your retardedNuh-uh! I cast cloudkill! Obviously it kills clouds!

[Akkristor]

Complete Mage has an alternate class feature that lets you have an elemental companion instead of an animal companion.

Originally I had that instead of Animal Companion, but I removed it. I've been trying to keep flavor without the class being as overpowering as the Druid normally is (though with full spellcasting it's still a hoss class). I ended up swapping in the Summon Elemental reserve feat as a bonus feat at 7th level, instead of a permanent Elemental Companion.

[Necroticplague]

most air elementals are made of cloudy stuff if you fight one in a cloud though your retarded

And most water elementals aren't just pools of water in appearence, their bodies constantly flow, likely faster than the water around them (unless its stormy or you're in whitewater), so the same idea can apply to them while their in water.

[Blackhawk748]

I would still give them 20% concealment or at least let them do hide checks, hell i think i did this for some air elementals that were hiding in a fog bank

[supersonic29]

If it were me GMing I wouldn't even look for an official ruling, I'd just say of course they don't receive a penalty they're water elementals. Don't they have listed like immunity to water anyways?

[ddude987]

I thought I read somewhere water elementals are invisible in water. Maybe it was a 3.0 book, savage species maybe?

[Elderand]

Nuh-uh! I cast cloudkill! Obviously it kills clouds!

On a related note, a campaign where the name of spells is taken literaly would be funny. Feather fall, to clean that chicken fast.

[Necroticplague]

On a related note, a campaign where the name of spells is taken literaly would be funny. Feather fall, to clean that chicken fast.

Water Walk would, of course, create a water elemental from a body of water.

Fireball, on the other hand, only works on males.

[georgie_leech]

Fireball, on the other hand, only works on males.

Nah, that clearly animates a large amount of fire into fancy dresses, fluted columns, and other fancy-dance necessities.

Heh, now I kind of want to run an adventure like this, where the Laws of Magic are fluid and if you can contort definitions enough to make the name fit, a Spell can do anything.

[PraxisVetli]

Nah, that clearly animates a large amount of fire into fancy dresses, fluted columns, and other fancy-dance necessities.

Heh, now I kind of want to run an adventure like this, where the Laws of Magic are fluid and if you can contort definitions enough to make the name fit, a Spell can do anything.

YES. This would be so much fun.

[FidgetySquirrel]

What about polymorph any object? Would it just change some random item, somewhere in the universe, into a polygon?

[georgie_leech]

What about polymorph any object? Would it just change some random item, somewhere in the universe, into a polygon?

Sure. It could also cause the item to shift randomly, or make it appear different from different angles, or make it stretch and flop weirdly, or...

[Necroticplague]

Detect poison can double as a sarcasm detector, and telekinesis is a SOD fort vs. de-craniation.

[FidgetySquirrel]

Ugh... imagine if summon nature's ally just attracted legions of hippies to your present location.

[Sith_Happens]

Ugh... imagine if summon nature's ally just attracted legions of hippies to your present location.

Meanwhile, Summon Monster becomes Cause Random Encounter.

[Baroknik]

Align Weapon: your weapon points in the desired direction
Anti magic Field: As SNA above, but they find an open area to picket against magic
Astral Projection: creates a planetarium
Burning Hands: See Gom Jabbar
Call Lightning: give it a ring
Chain Lightning: kinky, use Call afterwards!
Chill Metal: elevator Muzak set to Iron Maiden plays
Clenched Fist: punch someone
Create Food and Water: take home ec
Curse Water: Damn you, water!
Dancing Lights: Rave Time!
Dark vision: Who turned out the lights?
Discern Location: Look around
Enlarge Person: See Create Food and Water
Eyebite: ewwww
False Life: set up a WoW subscription
Fire Seeds: Load Seeds into gun and shoot
Flame Blade: post about Modern Hitler on Blade.com
Gaseous Form: grow to fill the container you are in
Ghost Sound: "Boo!"
Glitterdust: how strip clubs clean up
Grasping Hand: restraining order


Time for a break

[ben-zayb]

Can we make a new thread for this? Seriously guys, this is an awesome idea!:smalltongue: