Druid/Swordsage Gestalt

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Howdy all: Working on a fun little build for a gestalt game (5th level or so, maybe with one side of the gestalt lower than the other).

Basic idea behind the build is to really focus on the wildshape aspect of the druid, and use a lot of Swordsage maneuvers to enhance combat ability while wild-shaped (and ideally not be a complete waste when not wild-shaped.)

Not going for the most powerful God-druid build we can get here, obviously; the less stuff we have to sacrifice the better, but some loss of casting or animal companion is acceptable.

So, what should I be looking at? So far I've glanced at Shifter racial substitution levels, or Druidic Avenger from UA. What have I missed? Are there any classes, or even prestige classes, that are better at wild-shaping than straight druid?

[Rebel7284]

Master of Many Forms is better at wildshaping, but loses all other druid features.
Warshaper is also a good dip for wildshape builds after including a common sense limit on the number of natural weapons that can be grown as a move action.

Most of the dips you can do on the swordsage side due to the forgiving nature of TOB multiclassing rules.

I also like Fist of the Forest dip for gestalt Druid. Con to AC when you're a BEAR is nice.

Of course Cleric 1 for Divine Metamagic can be amazing if you want to go that route. Bite of the Werebear all day is nice.

[Starmage21]

I'm a fan of the Druid 20//Warblade 10/MMF 10 build.

Full druid casting, wildshape out the ass, and maneuvers to supplement weapon attacks if you feel like going War Troll :D

[shadowseve]

Honestly the best prestige class for a druid is planar shepherd from faiths of eberron. Full druid casting and wildshape, (except for type) You get access to a lot of nice forms and you're even granted the ex and su of the forms from your chosen realm. As far as the other side sword sage is nice for using the boosts and counter to help you out (kung fu bears are always nice.) One other class you might want to consider is factotum from dungeonscape. It gives you all skills known plus cunning surge. Cunning surge grants you an extra standard action which, of course, grants you more casting. say you take aberration wild shape and you turn into a Nilshai, which also grants an extra standard action, that's three standard actions in one round which is not bad at all.

IMO I would go with something like druid 5/planar shepherd 10/druid 5// factotum 8/swordsage 12. that would get you access to some great shaping forms via planar shepherd, cunning surge, 7th level maneuvers and full druid casting.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're only focusing on Wild Shape, then a Human Divine Minion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) of Anhur LA +1/ Master of Many Forms 7/ Warshaper 4/ MoMF 3/ whatever// Swordsage 20 would be perfect.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Just read Warshaper and... Am I missing something?

Immunity to Critical Hits
Immunity to Stunning
+ 4 STR and +4 Con
+ 5-ft Reach
Grow natural weapons whenever you feel like it
Fast Healing
Switch forms repeatedly within the duration of a normal spell/SLA...

All that over 5 levels, with effectively 0 cost to entry?

[eggynack]

Just read Warshaper and... Am I missing something?

Immunity to Critical Hits
Immunity to Stunning
+ 4 STR and +4 Con
+ 5-ft Reach
Grow natural weapons whenever you feel like it
Fast Healing
Switch forms repeatedly within the duration of a normal spell/SLA...

All that over 5 levels, with effectively 0 cost to entry?
Well, yeah. You lose all wild shape progression, along with animal companion and casting progression (normally this would come first), and you get a bunch of abilities that are way worse than that stuff that you're losing. It's somewhat better if you slot it in on the non-druid side, but you'd still be better off with something like MoMF, which works well with druid style form swapping. Really, those abilities are nice, but they don't really do much of anything, at least not on a druid, for whom life is always filled with stuff to do.

[Rebel7284]

Just read Warshaper and... Am I missing something?

Immunity to Critical Hits
Immunity to Stunning
+ 4 STR and +4 Con
+ 5-ft Reach
Grow natural weapons whenever you feel like it
Fast Healing
Switch forms repeatedly within the duration of a normal spell/SLA...

All that over 5 levels, with effectively 0 cost to entry?

What do you feel you are missing?

Some things to consider is that:
- It doesn't progress casting OR wildshape
- Again, growing natural weapons is SO poorly defined. What's stopping you from growing a new tentacle every round?
- Medium BAB

But it IS a good class, that's why I recommended you look at it. :)

[shadowseve]

Some of what eggynack and what the post above me stated is the reason I mentioned planar shepherd. Granted it can break the game but it progresses both your casting and wild shape, usually you do not want to lose caster levels. Warshaper and MMOF really doesn't add much to the druid. Strait druid would be better. I also agree with eggy if you're going use it then put it on the opposite side. Factotum and swordsage I think would be a better fit. With planar shepherd, and the fire realm, you can gain some powerful forms such as the efreeti you get 1/day—grant up to three wishes, which you can shape out of and shape back into and get the wishes again. So depending on the realm you choose you can get other forms as well. Stuff like that imo is better than mmof and warshaper.

[Snowbluff]

- It doesn't progress casting OR wildshape
- Again, growing natural weapons is SO poorly defined. What's stopping you from growing a new tentacle every round?
- Medium BAB

There are only like ~100 natural attacks in the game. If you already have one of the the attacks, it just makes it larger.

For a reasonable nerf, I would say you can add your class level in natural attacks.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

I guess when you compare it to the druid it falls back a bit, but as a PrC for any sort of front-liner, Warshaper still strikes me as being really nasty.

[eggynack]

I guess when you compare it to the druid it falls back a bit, but as a PrC for any sort of front-liner, Warshaper still strikes me as being really nasty.
Pretty much. It's a great class, but it's at its worst on a druid. Incidentally, I would go with the first two shifter sub levels over druidic avenger. It just provides much better stuff, and doesn't eat away at your summoning to do it. The natural weapon traits aren't all that good, because they end up somewhat redundant when placed on a wild shape'd druid, but you get some good stuff out of the deal overall.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Just read Warshaper and... Am I missing something?

Immunity to Critical Hits
Immunity to Stunning
+ 4 STR and +4 Con
+ 5-ft Reach
Grow natural weapons whenever you feel like it
Fast Healing
Switch forms repeatedly within the duration of a normal spell/SLA...

All that over 5 levels, with effectively 0 cost to entry?

You only benefit from the class features when in a form other than your own. Changing forms resets the natural attacks you gained or modified via morphic weapons.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Pretty much. It's a great class, but it's at its worst on a druid. Incidentally, I would go with the first two shifter sub levels over druidic avenger. It just provides much better stuff, and doesn't eat away at your summoning to do it. The natural weapon traits aren't all that good, because they end up somewhat redundant when placed on a wild shape'd druid, but you get some good stuff out of the deal overall.

Really? I was looking at those for a while, but the impression was that you'd be stuck with a few bad options - Take Moonspeaker, in which case your beast spirit doesn't advance anyway, and you have to use a whole bunch of feats on non-fighting-stuff, or don't take Moonspeaker, in which case you have to burn those feats on specifically the Shifter feats, all of which look underwhelming. (I mean, compared with what those feats could do for a Swordsage who can turn into a tiger.)

[eggynack]

Really? I was looking at those for a while, but the impression was that you'd be stuck with a few bad options - Take Moonspeaker, in which case your beast spirit doesn't advance anyway, and you have to use a whole bunch of feats on non-fighting-stuff, or don't take Moonspeaker, in which case you have to burn those feats on specifically the Shifter feats, all of which look underwhelming. (I mean, compared with what those feats could do for a Swordsage who can turn into a tiger.)
On the beast spirit thing, you shouldn't usually take more than four levels of moonspeaker, if you take any at all. Those levels get a bunch of great stuff, mostly focused on summoning, but the rest is pretty underwhelming. You also get pretty much all of the beast spirit stuff, which is neat, especially cause you pick up rapid summoning. You end up with a bunch of nifty bonuses to a bunch of nifty stuff, including one of the only ways, if the only way, to use race to apply strength or dexterity bonuses to wild shape.

As for feats, you don't have to spend any feats on anything. There's no onus to stick all of your feats into underwhelming shifter specific stuff, and doing so is in fact a bad idea. Basically, take whatever feat list you had in mind before, and then just use that. You might get some benefit out of applying some summoning focus, but that's not strictly necessary, and it can mean taking as little as one feat, for something like rashemi elemental or greenbound summoning. You also obviously have to ditch any animal companion feats you were planning on taking, so that could free up some slots.