Magic Immunity- how does it work

[Werephilosopher]

I've been on an information binge recently, about liches etc. From this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?231127-How-do-you-kill-a-demilich-3-5) thread, I found the argument that a demilich's magic immunity doesn't work the way I thought originally- specifically


Magic Immunity would not protect the spells it casts from magic effects, so Counterspelling and Dimensional Lock should still work against it. A Disjunction spell should dispel any buffs from it just as it would any other creature. AMF should also affect it normally. There's a big difference between being immune to magic which directly affects it, and being able to ignore any local ongoing magical effects. I'd say even a Silence spell would work normally against it, as long as it was not targeted directly on the Demilich.

Is this true? Do dispel magic, antimagic field etc. treat creatures and spells cast on said creatures as different entities?

[Der_DWSage]

Long story short-if it doesn't have to overcome spell resistance, then it affects the magic-immune being. Just like he wouldn't be able to see well in an area of Deeper Darkness, he also can't speak in a Silence Zone, and he'd have to move outside the 10-foot radius of an antimagic field. So long as you aren't casting the effects directly on it, you're fine.

[Urpriest]

Long story short-if it doesn't have to overcome spell resistance, then it affects the magic-immune being. Just like he wouldn't be able to see well in an area of Deeper Darkness, he also can't speak in a Silence Zone, and he'd have to move outside the 10-foot radius of an antimagic field. So long as you aren't casting the effects directly on it, you're fine.

Demilich Magic Immunity isn't explicitly connected to Spell Resistance...but that's only because it's a 3.0 rules concept. Changing it to the 3.5 version is just one of the things you have to do to make the game playable.

[KillianHawkeye]

No, magic immunity does not automagically transfer to whatever spells or magical effects you happen to put on yourself. :smallsigh:

[A_S]

So long as you aren't casting the effects directly on it, you're fine.
I think this is a slightly misleading way to explain it. The reason the AMF, Silence spell, and Deeper Darkness spell work isn't because they're not cast "directly on" the demilich, it's because those spells don't allow Spell Resistance, and Spell Immunity is specified in the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm) not to work on stuff that bypasses SR. To illustrate the difference, a Fireball that wasn't cast directly on the demilich, but happened to include it in its area of effect, wouldn't work because Fireball is SR:Yes, whereas an Orb of Acid that was directly cast on the demilich would work, because it's SR:No.

As Urpriest points out, this is assuming that you're using the 3.5 version of spell immunity.

[supermonkeyjoe]

The best way I've heard it described is that spell immunity is Spell Resistance: Infinity. Treat it as spell resistance that can never be overcome. (assuming you are using the 3.5 version, the 3.0 version of spell immunity is just nasty)

[Starmage21]

The best way I've heard it described is that spell immunity is Spell Resistance: Infinity. Treat it as spell resistance that can never be overcome. (assuming you are using the 3.5 version, the 3.0 version of spell immunity is just nasty)

These days, with all the hurr-durr that is conjuration with all the SR:NO spells that deal direct damage, when I use a demilich, I just rule them flat out immune to anything remotely having a direct effect on the demilich itself.

I tried to use one as an antagonist once, and once the players decided that they didnt like him enough to kill him, he died in a single action to a couple of heightened sonic orb spells, and finished off with an oddball Shatter spell which specifically hurts them. VERY anticlimactic for something that is supposed to be an age-old spellcaster.

[Asteron]

These days, with all the hurr-durr that is conjuration with all the SR:NO spells that deal direct damage, when I use a demilich, I just rule them flat out immune to anything remotely having a direct effect on the demilich itself.

I tried to use one as an antagonist once, and once the players decided that they didnt like him enough to kill him, he died in a single action to a couple of heightened sonic orb spells, and finished off with an oddball Shatter spell which specifically hurts them. VERY anticlimactic for something that is supposed to be an age-old spellcaster.

Maybe that age-old spellcaster should have had a higher touch AC and some energy immunity... It's kinda his fault that he got offed if he wasn't smart enough to cover his weaknesses. No need for ridiculous houserules, just smarter BBEG building.

[Starmage21]

Maybe that age-old spellcaster should have had a higher touch AC and some energy immunity... It's kinda his fault that he got offed if he wasn't smart enough to cover his weaknesses. No need for ridiculous houserules, just smarter BBEG building.

You're right. Dang! I didnt think of everything.

[Asteron]

You're right. Dang! I didnt think of everything.

Hey, it happens. Keep it in mind for next time you want to pull out a demi-lich. "Sonic orb? It hits, but doesn't appear to have any effect on this one!"

Shatter is still something you have to worry about.

[Bronk]

Also, you could use 'spell turning', greater globe of invulnerability, or a few ioun stones.

[Werephilosopher]

Demilich Magic Immunity isn't explicitly connected to Spell Resistance...but that's only because it's a 3.0 rules concept. Changing it to the 3.5 version is just one of the things you have to do to make the game playable.

Makes sense.


No, magic immunity does not automagically transfer to whatever spells or magical effects you happen to put on yourself. :smallsigh:

I kinda see the logic in that, but where does it say that in the rules? Because your statement implies that certain effects treat spell effects as separate entities from whoever's casting them, but if I know my enemy has tons of buffs up and I use dispel magic to get rid of them, I don't say "I'm targeting every spell on my enemy," I say "I'm targeting my enemy."

I get what you're saying, I just don't see where in the rules it spells it out.

[Zanos]

Hey, it happens. Keep it in mind for next time you want to pull out a demi-lich. "Sonic orb? It hits, but doesn't appear to have any effect on this one!"

Shatter is still something you have to worry about.
Even an maximized shatter only does 10 damage to a demilich on a failed save. I guess if you made a build around one shotting a demilich with metamagic'd shatter you could do it.

[A_S]

I kinda see the logic in that, but where does it say that in the rules? Because your statement implies that certain effects treat spell effects as separate entities from whoever's casting them, but if I know my enemy has tons of buffs up and I use dispel magic to get rid of them, I don't say "I'm targeting every spell on my enemy," I say "I'm targeting my enemy."

I get what you're saying, I just don't see where in the rules it spells it out.
The rules don't spell it out, because it's not true (really, it doesn't even make any sense).

KillianHawkeye is saying that just because a creature is immune to magic, active spell effects targeting that creature are not necessarily immune to magic. The thing is, there are no spells in the game that are capable of targeting an active spell effect.

Take a look at the "target" field for Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm): "One spellcaster, creature, or object; or 20-ft.-radius burst." Nothing about targeting a spell effect. Fortunately, it doesn't matter. What Dispel Magic does is target a creature, object, or area and remove spell effects from it. As already pointed out, the reason it works on magic-immune creatures is not because the spell effects on those creatures are not themselves magic immune; it's because Dispel Magic bypasses spell immunity by virtue of being SR:No.