Ways to touch foes without attacking them

[Nettlekid]

I want to make a Runecaster with a Rogue cohort, the Runecaster an old man who carves protective spells but also some offensive ones, and then the Rogue who uses Sleight of Hand to rapidly swap whatever runes the Runecaster is holding or to slip them on foes. I can't think of a really good way for the Rogue to actually use the runes offensively though. I want to make most of the runes touch-activated, and so something along the lines of slipping them into a pocket to be brushed against later or on the ground in front of the opponent to be stepped on is what I'm thinking, but I don't see that working too often. Another problem is that the rules for runes say that you can't put them on a weapon with the intent of having them activate on contact with a foe. So are there any ways that the Rogue can slap runes onto a foe without it actually being an attack, or at least a weapon attack?

[thatryanguy]

Have the rogue use a wand of unseen servant to set them off?

[Nettlekid]

Have the rogue use a wand of unseen servant to set them off?

How would that work? Slip the rune on the person with like a bit sticking out of the pocket so the Unseen Servant touches it and activates it? The Unseen Servant would become the target of the spell. I'd want to put Streamers and Shivering Touches into runes, not Fireballs.

[thatryanguy]

I was mostly considering spells with AOE, having it set them off like landmines.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Just Slight of Hand them an Explosive Runes note, then have the Unseen Servant tug at their pocket so they notice it.

[Nettlekid]

Just Slight of Hand them an Explosive Runes note, then have the Unseen Servant tug at their pocket so they notice it.

For one, I'm planning to use more dangerous things than Explosive Runes. But more importantly, that leaves way too much up to them. They might not notice or care. And if I'm in the middle of a battle that won't do either.

My question is this. I have a Runecaster and a Rogue staring down some nasty enemy that's about to attack me. I have offensive runes like runes of Shivering Touch. What's the most effective way of getting my opponent to touch the rune, or getting the rune to touch the opponent?

[Qwertystop]

Throw it at them. If it needs to be bare skin or a hand, work with your DM to figure out called shot rules (I don't think there's any by default).

[Applejaxc]

The rogue could feint then make a sleight-of-hand (as per normal rules) without giving the enemy an attack of opportunity.

[Slipperychicken]

Read Trigger: Wear the runes, possibly as a tabard, or on an inner garment (undershirt?). Remove whatever garment is covering the rune (could easily be a cloak), when your enemy is looking. Being a sexy lady helps, as does saying something like "BEHOLD!", "LOOK AT THIS!", or "Check this out, boys!".

Touch Trigger: Put it on a glove, your shoulder, or a piece of parchment. Pat him on the shoulder. Or shake his hands. Or bump into him on the sidewalk. Or put it on your feet and step on his shoes. Or give him a big friendly hug.

[Qwertystop]

Max Bluff, trick them into thinking it's a buff spell, drop it and pretend you fumbled it.

[Nettlekid]

Throw it at them. If it needs to be bare skin or a hand, work with your DM to figure out called shot rules (I don't think there's any by default).

Far too complicated, and more than likely would count as the tablet or whatever it's carved on being an improvised weapon, which can't activate the rune on impact. At least that's how I would rule it as a DM. At the point of figuring out new rules I might as well just make a new "stick this on your face" rule.


The rogue could feint then make a sleight-of-hand (as per normal rules) without giving the enemy an attack of opportunity.

And how do you propose actually getting the enemy to touch the rune? I would say that anything involving striking the foe with the rune would work like a touch attack holding a spell, which might work but wouldn't need a sneaky Rogue to do it, nor does it need Sleight of Hand, and the big draw of Sleight of Hand is the free action with a penalty.


Max Bluff, trick them into thinking it's a buff spell, drop it and pretend you fumbled it.

That might work once against one enemy. Not a very reliable method.


Read Trigger: Wear the runes, possibly as a tabard, or on an inner garment (undershirt?). Remove whatever garment is covering the rune (could easily be a cloak), when your enemy is looking. Being a sexy lady helps, as does saying something like "BEHOLD!", "LOOK AT THIS!", or "Check this out, boys!".

Touch Trigger: Put it on a glove, your shoulder, or a piece of parchment. Pat him on the shoulder. Or shake his hands. Or bump into him on the sidewalk. Or put it on your feet and step on his shoes. Or give him a big friendly hug.

Reading like that is easy enough, I agree. It's more expensive, but in the cases where you'd really want to fire something off or be out of harm's way those strategies should work well. I don't want to rely on the expensive ones, though. The "put the rune on a glove" thing is what I plan for the main Runecaster to do, but that would again be a touch attack or something to just bap the enemy with it.



I really want to be able to take advantage of Sleight of Hand's speed to place runes wherever I like, including on my opponent such that they are indeed affected by the rune at the time that I place it, and not a few hours later when they rummage through their pockets. Ideally I'd like to be able to do more than one, as the runes themselves have technically no activation time and Sleight of Hand can be done as a free action, which is why I'm being picky about anything that sounds more like a standard action touch attack.

[Slipperychicken]

I really want to be able to take advantage of Sleight of Hand's speed to place runes wherever I like, including on my opponent such that they are indeed affected by the rune at the time that I place it, and not a few hours later when they rummage through their pockets. Ideally I'd like to be able to do more than one, as the runes themselves have technically no activation time and Sleight of Hand can be done as a free action, which is why I'm being picky about anything that sounds more like a standard action touch attack.

What if you use Sleight of Hand to slip touch-activation runes (written on bits of paper the size of a small receipt?) into their belts, headbands, circlets, shoes, or other tight-fitting garments, much like how one would tuck bills into a stripper's belt? You could also simply drop a rune down someone's shirt.

Bear in mind that armor and clothing don't pose any barrier to touch spells or effects, so you could put a touch-rune between layers of clothing or armor if desired (such as between someone's sock and shoe).

[Nettlekid]

What if you use Sleight of Hand to slip touch-activation runes into their belts, headbands, circlets, shoes, or other tight-fitting garments, much like how one would tuck bills into a stripper's belt? You could also simply drop a rune down someone's shirt.

Bear in mind that armor and clothing don't pose any barrier to touch spells or effects, so you could put a touch-rune between layers of clothing or armor if desired (such as between someone's sock and shoe).

Hmm, that might work. I was thinking of using paper as the medium for the rune anyway (for weight and convenience) and slipping it between clothing might work. I suppose the Rogue can make sure to turn the face of the rune toward the target's body. I'll keep that in mind, but I'd like to hear more in case there's something that doesn't seem as awkward as shoving pieces of paper discreetly into shirts.

[Slipperychicken]

I'll keep that in mind, but I'd like to hear more in case there's something that doesn't seem as awkward as shoving pieces of paper discreetly into shirts.

I doubt it's much more awkward than discreetly lifting pieces of metal from someone's pants. And for a character so nimble and skilled as your Rogue, it shouldn't be an issue. He could even use those pickpocket finger-knives to cut an opening to place the paper through.

[Nettlekid]

I doubt it's much more awkward than discreetly lifting pieces of metal from someone's pants. And for a character so nimble and skilled as your Rogue, it shouldn't be an issue. He could even use those pickpocket finger-knives to cut an opening to place the paper through.

Oooh, now that I like. Just the general image of it. I wonder, can you think of a good way to get the runes back? It wouldn't be hard to just tap it against them and withdraw it, I suppose, but it might be cool to be able to affix them (by a bit of paste or string or what-have-you) to those cut spots, let the enemy's slightest movement cause the runes to brush against them and activate, and then take them back. The take-back seems slightly tricky. (I guess more Sleight of Hand will do, though, come to think of it.)

[Slipperychicken]

Oooh, now that I like. Just the general image of it. I wonder, can you think of a good way to get the runes back? It wouldn't be hard to just tap it against them and withdraw it, I suppose, but it might be cool to be able to affix them (by a bit of paste or string or what-have-you) to those cut spots, let the enemy's slightest movement cause the runes to brush against them and activate, and then take them back. The take-back seems slightly tricky. (I guess more Sleight of Hand will do, though, come to think of it.)

You could just SoH them back, loot them off the incapacitated body, or do something like use strings to attach himself to the papers and pull them back when he moves?

[Mellack]

I am confused. How is the rogue touching the touch-activated runes without triggering them himself? I know the caster can handle them safely, but not seeing how anyone else can. From my reading it seems "Whoever touches the rune triggers the rune and becomes the target of the spell placed in it."

[Nettlekid]

I am confused. How is the rogue touching the touch-activated runes without triggering them himself? I know the caster can handle them safely, but not seeing how anyone else can. From my reading it seems "Whoever touches the rune triggers the rune and becomes the target of the spell placed in it."

Ah, true, didn't really think of that. Presumably carefully handling the papers by the corners or the back should work? The text does specify that the rune itself must be touched. Perhaps the runes are folded over, or into little origami shapes, unfolded by the Rogue and slapped onto the enemy. But if anyone has a more elegant solution I'd be glad to hear it.

[Qwertystop]

Presumably gloves don't count, if hitting armor works - maybe a lacrosse stick?

[Jack_Simth]

Far too complicated, and more than likely would count as the tablet or whatever it's carved on being an improvised weapon, which can't activate the rune on impact. At least that's how I would rule it as a DM. At the point of figuring out new rules I might as well just make a new "stick this on your face" rule.
I really want to be able to take advantage of Sleight of Hand's speed to place runes wherever I like, including on my opponent such that they are indeed affected by the rune at the time that I place it, and not a few hours later when they rummage through their pockets. Ideally I'd like to be able to do more than one, as the runes themselves have technically no activation time and Sleight of Hand can be done as a free action, which is why I'm being picky about anything that sounds more like a standard action touch attack.... the fundamental point of the 'not on a weapon' schtick is to prevent, say, loading up the TWF Ranger's weapons with incapacitating spells so he can lay down seven save-or-lose effects/round (well, the same two multiple times, but still...). What you're asking for is a way around the built-in cheese prevention. With enough work in the thread, you can probably find one that's suitable... but do you really want to open that can of worms?

Also: The simple way around the majority of such methods is for the DM to say that the subject touching the rune must be at least a little deliberate on the part of the subject; the subject must touch the rune, it doesn't work if the rune touches the subject... so your opponent has to be the active party, even if it's just stepping on the wrong floor tile accidentally. In such a case, any method of your party rogue dropping them on the target won't work unless you put it in the way of an action the target is going to take anyway (such as, say, wrapping the hilt of his sword before he draws it) which is going to be unreliable, highly specific to the target, and likely only going to work with one rune per fight at best (which is, honestly, how I think it should be).

[Nettlekid]

... the fundamental point of the 'not on a weapon' schtick is to prevent, say, loading up the TWF Ranger's weapons with incapacitating spells so he can lay down seven save-or-lose effects/round (well, the same two multiple times, but still...). What you're asking for is a way around the built-in cheese prevention. With enough work in the thread, you can probably find one that's suitable... but do you really want to open that can of worms?

Also: The simple way around the majority of such methods is for the DM to say that the subject touching the rune must be at least a little deliberate on the part of the subject; the subject must touch the rune, it doesn't work if the rune touches the subject... so your opponent has to be the active party, even if it's just stepping on the wrong floor tile accidentally. In such a case, any method of your party rogue dropping them on the target won't work unless you put it in the way of an action the target is going to take anyway (such as, say, wrapping the hilt of his sword before he draws it) which is going to be unreliable, highly specific to the target, and likely only going to work with one rune per fight at best (which is, honestly, how I think it should be).

I get that, but I want to try it anyway. At the very least, this is just breaking action economy with spells instead of adding on a spell to every melee attack. I don't intend to put Finger of Death onto a Frenzied Berserker's sword or anything. And I'm not planning to put runes of Celerity or Time Stop in my shoes so I trigger it with every step. So, y'know, whatever.

I think the "must be a little deliberate" makes no sense at all. The rune doesn't "know" if the target made any action to touch the rune or not. Might as well Sleight of Hand runes just under the target's feet as he's walking forward. I'd agree with you with regard to "passing" the rune, like putting it on an arrow and shooting that past the target isn't the same as the target walking past the rune (even if you change your point of view to the rune's frame of reference.) But there's nothing even remotely like "must be aware of actions being taken which end up triggering a rune" and I think it's quite fine without that bit of fiat. I'm not extremely interested in "how you think it should be," I'm more interesting in seeing what I can do with how it is.

[Jeff the Green]

Oooh, now that I like. Just the general image of it. I wonder, can you think of a good way to get the runes back? It wouldn't be hard to just tap it against them and withdraw it, I suppose, but it might be cool to be able to affix them (by a bit of paste or string or what-have-you) to those cut spots, let the enemy's slightest movement cause the runes to brush against them and activate, and then take them back. The take-back seems slightly tricky. (I guess more Sleight of Hand will do, though, come to think of it.)

I'm now imagining the Runecaster scribing his runes on stickynotes and sticking them to his enemy's armor...

[Nettlekid]

I'm now imagining the Runecaster scribing his runes on stickynotes and sticking them to his enemy's armor...

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm going for. The Rogue slipping them on so fast that the enemy doesn't notice until prompted, then they look down and stagger back, rustling the runes and getting pummeled by a slew of spell effects.

[Slipperychicken]

I'm now imagining the Runecaster scribing his runes on stickynotes and sticking them to his enemy's armor...

Bonus points if the runecaster is one of those people who uses sticky-notes for everything.