Regrowing limbs

[Azraile]

We are close!

Seriously check this stuff out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extracellular_matrix

http://singularityhub.com/2011/07/12/miracle-powder-regrows-fingers-now-thigh-muscle-for-marine/

It regrew an intire mussle and all the nerves and blood vesels into it... guy lost his inter iner thigh, and it grew the whole area back..... looked nasty scary and stuff but it worked... saw something that it regrew like 70% of a lost limb but I can't find any proof on that one...

But it worked REALY REALY well on a small scale, guy lost the end of one of his fingers.... It grew back the intire finger tip.... bone, mussels, blood vessels, nerve endings, finger nail, and even his fingerprent...

his finger print!!!! it was the exsact same, they took his finger print as part as a job before he lost it... and they took it again when it grew back and it was identical to before

Growing an idntical finger print and a finger nail thats not mucked up is crazy enugh along with the complexity of your finger..... but it did all that with out scarring.....

http://cdn.singularityhub.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/acell-finger-regrowth-powder.jpg

you can see how insainly well it healed his finger..... and here is the soldier who lost his inter iner thigh

http://a.abcnews.com/images/Health/ht_strang_after_blast_kb_120911_wmain.jpg

He should have never walked again, maybe even lost that leg.... there was no way for his body to grow that mussel back but:

http://abcnews.go.com/images/Health/ht_strang_leg_kb_120911_main.jpg

look at him now, you can berrly tell he almost lost that leg, for a hole the size of a Nerf football blown out of his leg by an IED... he looks like he got just had really serious surgery or something o.o

[Grinner]

I think I saw a show about these a few months ago. Cool stuff.

Also, I stumbled upon this paper, Pathophysiology of the brain extracellular matrix (http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v14/n10/full/nrn3550.html), a week or so ago.

[Fragenstein]

Damn. Does this mean I'm never getting my cyberlimbs?

In seriousness, way to go. This sort of research is what ondogly medical bills are supposed to be going towards. Plus the cyberlimbs would probably run on some Android OS, anyway. QNX would be far more compatible with automotive technology.

[Traab]

Damn. Does this mean I'm never getting my cyberlimbs?

In seriousness, way to go. This sort of research is what ondogly medical bills are supposed to be going towards. Plus the cyberlimbs would probably run on some Android OS, anyway. QNX would be far more compatible with automotive technology.

I remember reading something that basically poked holes in the cyber limb thing. For one thing, no super strength or speed or whatever. The problem is, while the robo limb may be able to handle it, the flesh and blood its connected to cant. Imagine you have two robo arms that can lift and support a pickup truck. Thats great, really, but trying to pick up the truck would tear every still human muscle in your shoulder and back and possibly break your spine. To get any super abilities would basically require turning you into a human head on a robotic body. So that being the case, I would rather regrow my limbs than have them replaced by cybernetics.

[Brother Oni]

I remember reading something that basically poked holes in the cyber limb thing

Shirow Masamune poked holes in it in his notes for Ghost in the Shell back in 1989 and I'm sure people were aware of it before then.

That said, it's still possible to get superhuman capabilities depending on the function (grip strength is independent of actual arm strength) and the reinforcement of attachment to the meat body.
Surprisingly enough, the Will Smith character in I, Robot had it semi-realistically thought out with nearly the whole shoulder replaced along with several ribs (not all from just the accident), plus it just meant he had a powerful one trick punch, rather than being superhuman all round.

In addition, no fatigue is a wonderful thing - how long could a person run for, if everything below the waist was artificial?

[Fragenstein]

I remember reading something that basically poked holes in the cyber limb thing. For one thing, no super strength or speed or whatever. The problem is, while the robo limb may be able to handle it, the flesh and blood its connected to cant. Imagine you have two robo arms that can lift and support a pickup truck. Thats great, really, but trying to pick up the truck would tear every still human muscle in your shoulder and back and possibly break your spine. To get any super abilities would basically require turning you into a human head on a robotic body. So that being the case, I would rather regrow my limbs than have them replaced by cybernetics.

Oh, that's been understood for decades. I remember The Million Dollar Man even being deconstructed for that at some point. I don't need superstrength. Just that servo noise while giving someone the finger.

[Traab]

Shirow Masamune poked holes in it in his notes for Ghost in the Shell back in 1989 and I'm sure people were aware of it before then.

That said, it's still possible to get superhuman capabilities depending on the function (grip strength is independent of actual arm strength) and the reinforcement of attachment to the meat body.
Surprisingly enough, the Will Smith character in I, Robot had it semi-realistically thought out with nearly the whole shoulder replaced along with several ribs (not all from just the accident), plus it just meant he had a powerful one trick punch, rather than being superhuman all round.

In addition, no fatigue is a wonderful thing - how long could a person run for, if everything below the waist was artificial?

Hmm, that would depend on a lot of factors. For example, mental fatigue. Hunger, thirst, power source for the robo limbs. Possible muscle fatigue from shock absorption. Yeah your legs and such are all metal, but the impact of each step would likely reverberate to some extent through the rest of your body anyways. Plus you use your arms when you run. I dont recall ever seeing someone run without swinging their arms back and forth. Im trying to imagine running with my arms limp at my side and just thinking about it feels awkward.

[Fragenstein]

I dont recall ever seeing someone run without swinging their arms back and forth. Im trying to imagine running with my arms limp at my side and just thinking about it feels awkward.
Clearly you are not a ninja.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcShGmNANcxG6qwlCK0HK7emA1Ak_xMz5 pEoZsQcii6P6Srqcruc

Or whoever this guy is...

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/montella1_9280.jpg


But, again, in all seriousness - re-growing limbs is awesome enough in itself. I wonder if this will extend to organ replacement.

[Traab]

Clearly you are not a ninja.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcShGmNANcxG6qwlCK0HK7emA1Ak_xMz5 pEoZsQcii6P6Srqcruc

Or whoever this guy is...

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/montella1_9280.jpg


But, again, in all seriousness - re-growing limbs is awesome enough in itself. I wonder if this will extend to organ replacement.

Well the ninja may have his arms like that due to the wind of his passing holding them up, but picture 2, that guys arms are going to get tired fast. Also, neither is a picture of a guy running with his arms hanging limp. But I agree, I cant wait till cloning has reached a point where they can take a sample of your damaged kidney, and regrow one for you.

[Fragenstein]

Well the ninja may have his arms like that due to the wind of his passing holding them up, but picture 2, that guys arms are going to get tired fast. Also, neither is a picture of a guy running with his arms hanging limp. But I agree, I cant wait till cloning has reached a point where they can take a sample of your damaged kidney, and regrow one for you.

My mother could have done with a new pair of eyeballs. Though some of the defects were congenital -- are they correcting for things like that?

As for me? When my pancreas goes, I plan to let it go without a fight. I'm not big on personal immortality, but I like seeing others benefit from the advancement.

[warty goblin]

In addition, no fatigue is a wonderful thing - how long could a person run for, if everything below the waist was artificial?
Barring certain instances involving carnivores, what the hell is the point of running if not fatigue? Feeling like I got run over by a truck is why I want to run as far as I can. That's where the endorphins come from.

[Traab]

My mother could have done with a new pair of eyeballs. Though some of the defects were congenital -- are they correcting for things like that?

As for me? When my pancreas goes, I plan to let it go without a fight. I'm not big on personal immortality, but I like seeing others benefit from the advancement.

Congenital defects might be a problem, but it also may depend on how bad of one. For example, if your mom went 40 years before needing new eyes, thats not a bad return on investment if she gets another 40 out of the new ones. I have a double heart murmur, its a genetic condition, but it hasnt caused me any issues so far aside from nearly disqualifying me from military service, so if I needed a new heart I wouldnt be opposed to getting a new copy of my current model.

[Fragenstein]

Congenital defects might be a problem, but it also may depend on how bad of one. For example, if your mom went 40 years before needing new eyes, thats not a bad return on investment if she gets another 40 out of the new ones. I have a double heart murmur, its a genetic condition, but it hasnt caused me any issues so far aside from nearly disqualifying me from military service, so if I needed a new heart I wouldnt be opposed to getting a new copy of my current model.

Her eyes were a mess. Retinal Pigmentosa. Problems with the rods and cones that I never fully understood. Congenital cataracts. Night blindness.

It was apparently first noticeable when she was five. The night blindness cost her a driver's license... late 20's? Early 30's? Tunnel vision for most of her life, but she was only legally blind up until the last few years of her life.

So yeah. Any new pair of eyes could have started to fail within a few years of regrowth. But I'm pretty sure she would have still considered it worth the effort. Better if they could tweak the genes just a bit.

[Traab]

Her eyes were a mess. Retinal Pigmentosa. Problems with the rods and cones that I never fully understood. Congenital cataracts. Night blindness.

It was apparently first noticeable when she was five. The night blindness cost her a driver's license... late 20's? Early 30's? Tunnel vision for most of her life, but she was only legally blind up until the last few years of her life.

So yeah. Any new pair of eyes could have started to fail within a few years of regrowth. But I'm pretty sure she would have still considered it worth the effort. Better if they could tweak the genes just a bit.

I wonder, can you clone blood? Because that would be truly badass if possible. Get a universal donor, setup the lab and start cranking out pint after pint of clone blood. Even if it cant be done forever for whatever reason, it would still greatly decrease the problems with blood shortages. Every pint counts as three before its no longer viable, or whatever. And if cloning parts was doable, I bet there would be a market available for people to donate genetic material to be used for creating multiple copies of whatever organ or body part without having to remove it from the donor. That would help with the congenital defect portion of the world. And also give people options. "I can clone you a new heart to replace yours, but it will take a month or so to grow fully. Or we can bring in a close match from our donation registry right away. Somewhat increased chance of rejection, but you wont risk death by waiting on your exact copy to grow."

[Azraile]

But, again, in all seriousness - re-growing limbs is awesome enough in itself. I wonder if this will extend to organ replacement.

Yes, they were working on that before they figured the limb stuff out....

Basickly they were able to kill off and bleach /burn /whatever away all the living tisue of a heart till only the extracellular matrix of the heart was left, and then using that.... grow a new heart.

So if we can just say.... get a 3D printer that builds extracellular matrix into organs, then all that would need to be done is get some cells from the person that needs the organ and apply them to the matrix and make it grow!

http://38.media.tumblr.com/3640dbf5ba7cd5d827beeb079b706fbc/tumblr_mwywb8z3KW1qekaf5o1_500.jpg

Here you see what a heart looks like with no cells in it... just the exocellular matrix

They have grown a normal human heart that beats just fine from it

http://www.revespcardiol.org/imatges/255/255v66n05/grande/255v66n05-90198900fig2.jpg

[Necroticplague]

I wonder, can you clone blood? Because that would be truly badass if possible. Get a universal donor, setup the lab and start cranking out pint after pint of clone blood. Even if it cant be done forever for whatever reason, it would still greatly decrease the problems with blood shortages. Every pint counts as three before its no longer viable, or whatever.

To my knowlege, blood isn't as much of a bodily substance. While it does have cells, those cells don't all reproduce, so its more like"blood" is just a substance secreted from you bones, like how stomach acid is a liquid secreted by glands attached to the stomach. Of course, it contains some things that could presumably be cloned as independent organisms (white blood cells and platelets,I think). But a large part of blood is red blood cells (which lack a nucleus and most organelles) and plasma (which is 95% water), which I don't think can be cloned. Of course, you could try cloning the bone marrow, and make it produce blood. Unfortunately, this would require quiet a setup, as you would need to supply it with the raw materials (stem cells, though you don't need pluripotent, just hemapotent), as well as tricking it into making blood (likely by drugging whatever solution it grows in).

[Brother Oni]

Hmm, that would depend on a lot of factors. For example, mental fatigue. Hunger, thirst, power source for the robo limbs. Possible muscle fatigue from shock absorption. Yeah your legs and such are all metal, but the impact of each step would likely reverberate to some extent through the rest of your body anyways. Plus you use your arms when you run. I dont recall ever seeing someone run without swinging their arms back and forth. Im trying to imagine running with my arms limp at my side and just thinking about it feels awkward.

It's still going to be less exhausting than if you were pure meat.


Barring certain instances involving carnivores, what the hell is the point of running if not fatigue? Feeling like I got run over by a truck is why I want to run as far as I can. That's where the endorphins come from.

Avoiding incoming fire, infiltration, evasion of hostiles searching for you - basically all the combat and military stuff where performance takes precedence over recreational needs.


I wonder, can you clone blood?

While we can't clone blood (it should be theoretically possibly by bone marrow transplant into a suitable vessel and leaving them to grow, like seeding a field), there's been substantial work into blood substitutes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_substitute).

[Grinner]

So if we can just say.... get a 3D printer that builds extracellular matrix into organs, then all that would need to be done is get some cells from the person that needs the organ and apply them to the matrix and make it grow!

Hasn't that already been done with teeth, livers, and I think a trachea or two?

[Azraile]

wouldn't be suprized


but this poweder is a lot cheeper.... they just slice up a pig blatter, it's got an extracellular membrane thats easy to cut lose. Then they just dry it out and grind it up....

Pig blatters themselves are thrown away by butcher shops, so they are cheep as can be.

[Brother Oni]

Pig blatters themselves are thrown away by butcher shops, so they are cheep as can be.

Until the next bout of swine 'flu when the price will rocket.

[SiuiS]

Hmm, that would depend on a lot of factors. For example, mental fatigue. Hunger, thirst, power source for the robo limbs. Possible muscle fatigue from shock absorption. Yeah your legs and such are all metal, but the impact of each step would likely reverberate to some extent through the rest of your body anyways. Plus you use your arms when you run. I dont recall ever seeing someone run without swinging their arms back and forth. Im trying to imagine running with my arms limp at my side and just thinking about it feels awkward.

Actually, I—


Clearly you are not a ninja.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcShGmNANcxG6qwlCK0HK7emA1Ak_xMz5 pEoZsQcii6P6Srqcruc

Or whoever this guy is...

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/montella1_9280.jpg


But, again, in all seriousness - re-growing limbs is awesome enough in itself. I wonder if this will extend to organ replacement.

Yeah. Those.

It's inefficient for long-term (long term you're better off jogging than running, just for the sake of maintaining balance where your focus isn't always "on the road") but for a sprint leaving your arms behind you gets you some speed and it's not that hard. It lets you lean forward farther, getting more from the hamstrings I believe, without tipping forward and going splat nearly as much. It's a better way to sprint in shoes if you want performance over, you know, Survivability.


To my knowlege, blood isn't as much of a bodily substance. While it does have cells, those cells don't all reproduce, so its more like"blood" is just a substance secreted from you bones, like how stomach acid is a liquid secreted by glands attached to the stomach. Of course, it contains some things that could presumably be cloned as independent organisms (white blood cells and platelets,I think). But a large part of blood is red blood cells (which lack a nucleus and most organelles) and plasma (which is 95% water), which I don't think can be cloned. Of course, you could try cloning the bone marrow, and make it produce blood. Unfortunately, this would require quiet a setup, as you would need to supply it with the raw materials (stem cells, though you don't need pluripotent, just hemapotent), as well as tricking it into making blood (likely by drugging whatever solution it grows in).

I think the big thing with plasma is that it's mostly dissolved proteins in the liquid. Don't remember why though.



While we can't clone blood (it should be theoretically possibly by bone marrow transplant into a suitable vessel and leaving them to grow, like seeding a field), there's been substantial work into blood substitutes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_substitute).

Oh, neat.


Hasn't that already been done with teeth,

WHAT

HOW

EXPLAIN! EXPLAIN! EXPLAAAIN!
Oh please oh please oh please let there be a future cheap way to get new teeth I won't ruin this set I swear titanium is so expensive please let them be able to regrowing teeths

[Kato]

Uh... while this is the first time I've heard of this, and apart from sounding too good to be true there's one thing that makes me pretty skeptical... identical fingerprints?! Aren't fingerprints like, totally random, as in, identical twins have different fingertips? How would whatever is left of your finger know what your fingertip was? Doesn't make sense to me...

Apart from that, it would be really cool if this works as described because... well, doesn't really need an explanation, does it? :smalltongue:
And I'm sure we'll still get our cyberlimbs, because if I ever try to resurrect my dead mother with a magic ritual and lose an arm and a leg in the process I sure as hell want my automail instead of some pig bladder arm :smallwink:
But in all seriousness, just from random guessing, I guess there will be applications for prosthetics and applications for the magic powder... who doesn't want to have an arm with an integrated smartphone? Or all other possible toys, given the chance.

[Eldan]

EXPLAIN! EXPLAIN! EXPLAAAIN!
Oh please oh please oh please let there be a future cheap way to get new teeth I won't ruin this set I swear titanium is so expensive please let them be able to regrowing teeths

No idea about the teeth. But for livers and tracheae, they print a matrix in the right shape, coat it in stem cells and then introduce the right chemical factors to get it to grow into the right cell type.

Not so sure about teeth. You could probably regrow the living parts of the tooth. Not so sure about the enamel.



But in all seriousness, just from random guessing, I guess there will be applications for prosthetics and applications for the magic powder... who doesn't want to have an arm with an integrated smartphone? Or all other possible toys, given the chance.

I'd honestly rather have an arm with, you know, proprioception and a sense of touch. Because I can use that to hold a smart phone, but not the other way around. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/smilies/smallstick/smalltongue.gif

[Tanuki Tales]

Until the next bout of swine 'flu when the price will rocket.

There's already an infection running roughshod through the pig population and causing prices to go up.

[Brother Oni]

WHAT

HOW

EXPLAIN! EXPLAIN! EXPLAAAIN!
Oh please oh please oh please let there be a future cheap way to get new teeth I won't ruin this set I swear titanium is so expensive please let them be able to regrowing teeths

The explanation for when people ask and you want to look smart: Photoactivation of Endogenous Latent Transforming Growth Factor–β1 Directs Dental Stem Cell Differentiation for Regeneration (http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/6/238/238ra69).

The layman's version: they stick dental stem cells into the gap, then fire low powered lasers at it while splashing various chemicals on them to stimulate growth.


Not so sure about teeth. You could probably regrow the living parts of the tooth. Not so sure about the enamel.

As I understand the process, it's growing a new set of adult teeth insitu rather a 'tooth transplant', so there would be a period where the new teeth cut in (much like in babies and children) before they're fully formed.
Of course with the American fixation on straight white teeth, it would mean braces and other orthodontic treatments.


There's already an infection running roughshod through the pig population and causing prices to go up.

Hopefully people will have learned from the heparin scandal the last time and have an eye on any potential issues with derived pig products.

[Grinner]

No idea about the teeth. But for livers and tracheae, they print a matrix in the right shape, coat it in stem cells and then introduce the right chemical factors to get it to grow into the right cell type.

The same general technique works for teeth. The trick, as I understand it, is getting the right "grade" of stem cells.

There's also a few articles about a Chinese scientist who derived stem cells from urine, mixed it with a mouse's stem cells, and then implanted the mixture into a mouse. After allowing it to mature, they were able to extract a whole tooth from the mouse.

Imagine being that mouse...:smalleek:

But yes, it's totally possible. In fact, PubMed has an article (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3000521/) which indexes the current tooth regeneration techniques. Finding someone willing to do it commercially is another matter altogether. And I don't think the word "cheap" will ever enter the discussion.

[Brother Oni]

Finding someone willing to do it commercially is another matter altogether. And I don't think the word "cheap" will ever enter the discussion.

It's less willing and more allowed. Getting a new procedure licensed for use requires a massive amount of testing, clinical trials and jumping through regulatory hoops, requiring a significant amount of upfront investment.

A new procedure that will regenerate teeth would likely to be very commercially successful, particularly by the rich people who are tired of dentures or false teeth, or just the elderly in general. As for 'cheap', it would depend on the target market, but that's up to the sales and finance departments.

[Azraile]

Until the next bout of swine 'flu when the price will rocket.

Not at all.... they can BLEACH the extracellular membrane if they want to, there not living matter.

You sterilize the membrane 100% free of any germs and before drying it out and grinding it up.

So the host you get the extracellular material can be the sickest being in the universe and it won't matter, as long as the matrix is intact you can use the organ... and if not you can just grind it up and use the powder.

This is one of the biggest reasons this is so crazy, the material you can really get from any organ... just happens the blatter of a pig you can just scrape the flesh off making it super super super easy to get. Like the other picture showed to get the marital from the heart or the like you have to put it through various chemical baths to remove the cellular marital till the framework of the extracellular material is all that is left.

They can make functioning eyes, it's just the complex neural connection that's the problem.

And I dought getting a new working eye is as easy as cutting the cord and stufffing the socket with the powder. Though that would be cool as hell if it was!!!!

Point is, we could use this to grow a new eye.... but then we would have no idea how to connect it so it works 100% functionality.

But people are working on it, and there are implants that restore sight now. The blind can seee!!!!!

In pixilated (censored body part style) graphics.............. but hey... they can see!!

[Azraile]

http://130.75.63.115/upload/lv/wisem0708/SeminarIT-Trends/html/ms/Mensch%20Maschine%20Schnittstelle%20WebVersion-Dateien/image019.jpg

Left: orginal image
middle: orginal tech for restoring sight...
Right: What people with implants see now.

Now consider the fact there blind, and have never seen ANYTHING before..... that's..... as crazy as growing legs back lol

[Grinner]

http://130.75.63.115/upload/lv/wisem0708/SeminarIT-Trends/html/ms/Mensch%20Maschine%20Schnittstelle%20WebVersion-Dateien/image019.jpg

Left: orginal image
middle: orginal tech for restoring sight...
Right: What people with implants see now.

Now consider the fact there blind, and have never seen ANYTHING before..... that's..... as crazy as growing legs back lol

Do you have any links to relevant articles? I hadn't realized optic implants had advanced this far.

[Azraile]

I think that's in testing right now though, not 'available' as you can just ask for it. You would have to get in the program for testing it.

But just do a search, all I would do =p


But hey..... blind people see with gameboy graphics.... give them 25~50 years and they will see with 3ds graphics lol

[Grinner]

I think that's in testing right now though, not 'available' as you can just ask for it. You would have to get in the program for testing it.

But just do a search, all I would do =p

I don't have much use for another eye. :smallwink:

Really, I'm just curious about the technical aspects. Where did you dig up those pictures anyway?

[Azraile]

goggle

eye replacement blind image what they see

[Brother Oni]

Not at all.... they can BLEACH the extracellular membrane if they want to, there not living matter.

You sterilize the membrane 100% free of any germs and before drying it out and grinding it up.

So the host you get the extracellular material can be the sickest being in the universe and it won't matter, as long as the matrix is intact you can use the organ... and if not you can just grind it up and use the powder.


If the pig is condemned as not fit for human consumption, then while scientifically you can use the material, legally you wouldn't be allowed to. Bleaching the material is also likely to denature the protein.
As for sickest being in the universe, not if it were infected with something like a TSE causing protein. There's no way of bleaching that out without destroying the extracellular membrane, at least not cost effectively.

Edit: I apologise if I'm a little incoherent as I've finally got round to reading the article and I've worked on very related products in this field so I'm dancing a bit around my confidentiality clause.

[Azraile]

Ah..... legality... that will bite you in ass every time won't it?

Red tape and politics, making scientific discovery a pain in the ass sense ... well forever. lol

I think the world would be a lot better off if science could just work for science (and peoples) sake. Financially though that has become a hard pressed thing, unless like this guy you are secure financially and know the right people. Most scientist though are just forced to work for corporations, and that sucks.....

Paticuarly when discoveries are made but pushed aside because while they would better humanity, they would hurt the companies profit margin.

[Brother Oni]

Red tape and politics, making scientific discovery a pain in the ass sense ... well forever. lol

For medicine, not before the 1902 Biologics Act in the US with exception of the short lived 1813 Vaccine Act.

Back then, there were no controls on the production quality or efficacy of medicines, which is where you get the US history of snake oil salemen, 'doctors' selling fake medicines that would cure you or improve your health.

Sulfanilamide was a well known antibacterial agent and a company decided to make such a medicine for children. They added raspberry flavouring to sulfanilamide, dissolved it up in diethylene glycol and sold it as Elixir sulfanilamide (http://www.fda.gov/aboutfda/whatwedo/history/productregulation/sulfanilamidedisaster/default.htm) with no other testing performed. Diethylene glycol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethylene_glycol) is very closely related to antifreeze and nearly as poisonous, so unsurprisingly the product caused a number of deaths, which were mainly children since that was the target market.

This was the straw that broke the camel's back and lead directly to new legislation in 1938.

As for unrestricted science, you only have to look at Nazi doctors and Unit 731 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731) as to where that leads.



I think the world would be a lot better off if science could just work for science (and peoples) sake. Financially though that has become a hard pressed thing, unless like this guy you are secure financially and know the right people. Most scientist though are just forced to work for corporations, and that sucks.....

Pure research is still done, mainly in universities. I can't say for any other field, but for pharmaceutics, there's still plenty of things that people are working on (the oddest I heard was a team that took an inkjet printer, put a solution of drug instead of ink into it and dosed out the drug that way, since there's very fine control over the volume and spray). That said, you can't just wave your hands and say 'science' when there's thousands of different disciplines, all with varying applications for humanity.

I think you also underestimate the cost of research - altruistic science is a very worthy goal, but it doesn't pay the bills very well.


Paticuarly when discoveries are made but pushed aside because while they would better humanity, they would hurt the companies profit margin.

While I can think of some examples outside of the pharmaceutics industry (electric car development allegedly being stifled by the big petrolchemical companies), many of them are borderline tinfoil hattery.

I've had the question posed to me that a company would prefer to develop a recurring treatment over a one off cure as they would make more profit. While it's true they would make more money, the question overlooks the massive issue that a one off cure is significantly harder to make, if it were possible at all (outside of medical procedures, I can't think of a single medicine that's a one off cure).
While you could argue that pursuing a one off cure is better in the long run for humanity, it doesn't help if the company goes bankrupt while pursing that cure over the more easily accessible recurring treatment. This also neglects the fact that a quicker to develop treatment may potentially save more lives over a longer to develop but permanent cure.

[Azraile]

You are rather quick to throw me in with everyone else. lol

I understand the problems to what I said, but one can dream can't they?

But yess it don't pay the bills but like manythings corporations just gobbling up all the money. We use to tax big busnesses and the ultra welthy 90% and they did just fine.... now we are lucky if some of they pay 0.9%.... x.x Our economy is ****ed and it ****s everything else including scientific study.

With a rappidly shrinking middle class everything is just falling apart, and it makes for a very narrow few that can get the kinda funding to peruse what every they want to.

Most of the stiffed tech though is related to energy production, very very very rich people made all there money and still make a large amount of there money on oil, coal, and natural gas. We have had electric cars as long as we have had cars, and people have made plenty of alternate fuel sorces over the years for them. Renewable power solutions are stiffled all over the place. It's not hard to see why... it's expensive and you would not see profits from it for a good while, and the profits would not be very big compared to what they get with resources they have. That and they can't control the price... it would be a steady flat price.

Right now some one could fart at a state diner and they could use that as an exscuse to raise oil prices x.x

oh well least it's not as bad as the diamond carrells x.x those things should be worth hardly anything... and they are if you ever try and sell one

[Azraile]

I just wish things were different and everyone wasn't so obsessed with money .... after a point being rich there is no more point of being any richer ... When your making money faster than you can spend it anything else after that is just pointless.

[Azraile]

on a side note on this....

We had a 50% tax on the ultra rich for the longest time up until Regan times

There are plently of people that feel we need this again..... some of these people arn't all talk.

There are some ultra rich who have given 50% of there net worth to charity to show there support of bringing back a 50% tax on there tax bracket.

o.o

Way to go people.... way to go, you rock.

[Mr. Mask]

The pictures in relation to eye implants makes me wonder if they can replace a single eye, when the other eye is working. I'm not sure how that would look.


It was mentioned that it was a simple process to extract and prepare the extra cellular matrix from pig bladders. How simple is this process? Simple enough that any farmer with pigs could get the regenerative material?

[Azraile]

The pictures in relation to eye implants makes me wonder if they can replace a single eye, when the other eye is working. I'm not sure how that would look.


It was mentioned that it was a simple process to extract and prepare the extra cellular matrix from pig bladders. How simple is this process? Simple enough that any farmer with pigs could get the regenerative material?

Maybe, but there is more to making the powder than JUST grinding it up I'm sure.

But if some butcher could make it that would be..... insane O.o

But unlike most organs, a pigs batter has it's extracellular matrix as a film like layer in the tissue. So cutting up the blatter and scrapping all the flesh off and separating it from the rest of the blatter.

Everything from there though is supper hush hush behind disclosure contracts and red tape. But the fact you can get the ECM cheeply and easly is the part about it that is awsome.

It won't mean anyone can do it.... it will mean anyone will be able to afford it.

[Brother Oni]

You are rather quick to throw me in with everyone else. lol

When you say 'everybody else', what exactly do you mean? About the only thing I can think of is that I've assumed you don't know very much about the history of pharmaceutical regulation in the US, which is a pretty specific and esoteric topic by most standards.

I'm not touching the rest of your posts as they're political comments.


The pictures in relation to eye implants makes me wonder if they can replace a single eye, when the other eye is working. I'm not sure how that would look.

Very disorientating and potentially headache inducing since you'd be getting two very different images at the same time.



It was mentioned that it was a simple process to extract and prepare the extra cellular matrix from pig bladders. How simple is this process? Simple enough that any farmer with pigs could get the regenerative material?

The process is comparatively simple but requires specialised and expensive equipment. Additionally in order to be allowed to use the material in humans, there's massive amount of regulatory hoops you have to jump through.

Heparin is another commonly used product extracted from pigs and the commercial scale extraction is simple in theory (prepare tissue, extract raw heparin, recover raw heparin, purify the heparin, extract purified heparin), but is tricky on procedual and chemical level: Production and chemical processing of low molecular weight heparin (http://www-heparin.rpi.edu/main/files/papers/217.pdf).



Everything from there though is supper hush hush behind disclosure contracts and red tape. But the fact you can get the ECM cheeply and easly is the part about it that is awsome.


What you call red tape, I call laws and regulations in order to keep the patients safe (although sometimes I wish there wasn't quite so much of it).

Extraction at the lab scale is in the public domain: example (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0013039).

Extraction at the commercial scale is interesting - in order to obtain a patent on it, it has to be made public via the patent office so everybody would know about it, they just can't use it legally without a license. This means that anybody who can adapt the process and change it enough not to be identifiably equivalent, can also use their new process without issue. In countries where patent law is more of suggestion anyway, they'd just steal the process outright.

If the original company kept the process secret then anybody could do it if they worked it out and the company can't do a thing about it.



It won't mean anyone can do it.... it will mean anyone will be able to afford it.

Well anyone who can afford a production facility that can manufacture pharmaceutical grade products. I'd be very leery of the 'back shed' type operations who would extract ECM without checking for diseases that can jump the species barrier (prion and swine flu for starters), or would mix in another cheaper material just to bulk it out and increase profits, for example the 2008 heparin scandal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_heparin_adulteration) I alluded to earlier.

[Tev]

You are rather quick to throw me in with everyone else. lol
Ironically you're doing the same in rest of your post in regards to rich people and corporations. Everyone is just eeeeeviiiiil, right?
Sometimes you just can't have everything - just stop and think for a moment what do you really want: more regulation and control from government (to make sure corporations won't sell harmful crap or just hoard money) or less byrocratic meddling that just makes research more expensive and stifles it (as you complained here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17694386&postcount=35)).

It's even more ironic to bring that up in THIS topic, since expensive regrowing real limbs seems like perfect thing to sell to rich cripples. I don't think any farma company would try to halt that research, unless it proves to be actually cheap . . . but intellectual property laws take care of that (and resulting monopoly takes care of ROI on research), and that's for another debate.

Besides that . . . great topic! I like how fast we are still advancing in science, and this will bring real improvement in life quality. You know - doing a lot more extreme sports with less worry about serious injuries :D

[Brother Oni]

It's even more ironic to bring that up in THIS topic, since expensive regrowing real limbs seems like perfect thing to sell to rich cripples. I don't think any farma company would try to halt that research, unless it proves to be actually cheap . . . but intellectual property laws take care of that (and resulting monopoly takes care of ROI on research), and that's for another debate.

If it were cheap, that would mean a low cost of development which would interest a small specialty pharma company that would attract the attention (and funding) of various charities in the field (e.g. Veterans Associations).

Big pharma companies pretty much do their own thing - often they pass over products that simply don't have a big enough ROI, which can then be licensed out to smaller companies.

[SiuiS]

I'm
Just dreaming of new teeth.

I think all you people with a workig set don't reay understand how god-damned groundbreaking "new teeth" is for increasing the quality of life of a lot of people.

I mean... Wow. Where would I sign up for this? I will completely and totay get into trials on this sort of thing.

[Brother Oni]

I think all you people with a workig set don't reay understand how god-damned groundbreaking "new teeth" is for increasing the quality of life of a lot of people.


As someone who has no fillings in their teeth, I can't really emphasise on a personal level, but given the amount of money I pay for my wife's treatments, I can (sorta) feel your pain.



I mean... Wow. Where would I sign up for this? I will completely and totay get into trials on this sort of thing.

Check with your local hospitals and dental clinics to see if they're running any clinical trials and also ask your dentist/doctor if they know of anything going on.

Sometimes when they're recruiting for a new trial, there are adverts - there's a PPD clinic in Austin, Texas (I'm assuming you're in the US) that appears to be currently recruiting: link (http://www.ppdi.com/Participate-In-Clinical-Trials/Volunteer-for-a-Study/Dental-Research-Clinic.aspx).
I'm sure there are other trials and centres located throughout whatever country you reside in.

Bear in mind that there are often fairly stringent elgibility requirements and if you're not a healthy young adult male, you may have some difficulties getting into early stage trials. I would also like to emphasise that you should check with your doctor/dentist first - while the trial will often have a medical for the volunteers, they won't know your personal medical history.

[Azraile]

I don't think people are evil. Now your just reading into things lol

This was even from some one doing it because he wanted to help people, not make money.... or he wouldn't have been looking for cheep easy ways to get ECM.

And I mean throw me in with others as other people that don't understand the need for the legal stuff. Like you said you can't have science if you can't pay the bills. It sucks a lot and is terrible some times, but usually it's just the way things are done. I don't think people are making expensive treatments instead of cures because they want more money. Sure there has to be some that are, but your right people seam to think there all that way... and thats just not true.


Anyway.... I have no idea if ECM can be used to make teeth. The big problem with teeth though is that the gums seal up and heal the place the tooth was like it was a open wound. Only way to get a tooth in really is to drill it into the jaw or something like that. x.x Maybe ECM or some other teeth restoritive tech will let you save teeth, but replacing ones you have lost after the gums have healed up isn't going to be something we can do for a while.


As for the ECM powder, any wounded US soldier can sign up for it right now from what i've seen. They are apparently shipping the stuff over to the troops. Wich is probably the most awesome part of all of it. If anyone needs to be in a testing group for this stuff, it's wounded soldiers!!!!

IED's cause some SERIOUS wounds, and this stuff is a godsend for them.

[Brother Oni]

And I mean throw me in with others as other people that don't understand the need for the legal stuff.

I thought I explained why we need all the 'legal stuff'? It's to make sure that companies make high quality and effective medicines.



Anyway.... I have no idea if ECM can be used to make teeth.

As far as I know it can't. There's a couple of different techniques (the one I read involed stem cells and lasers), which someone linked to earlier in the thread.



As for the ECM powder, any wounded US soldier can sign up for it right now from what i've seen. They are apparently shipping the stuff over to the troops. Wich is probably the most awesome part of all of it. If anyone needs to be in a testing group for this stuff, it's wounded soldiers!!!!


I think you're confusing two different things. There's this stuff which is regenerative medicine and then there's the fast clotting powders which are classed as anti-haemorrhagics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antihemorrhagic).

A number of these fast clotting agents are already sold on the market (e.g. Quikclot) or in clinical trials (e.g. Fibrocaps). There's also a number of videos on Youtube demonstrating how quickly and effectively these products work, although I can't link to them as they're rather graphic medical procedures and prohibited under board rules.

I can't see any reason why a product in development would be shipped overseas to deployed troops - it's more the sort of thing where injured personnel would be sent home to be (for a lack of a better word) experimented on under controlled conditions.

[Azraile]

I know, it makes a lot more sense to be done in a controlled environment. I think there doing it less as a clinical trial and more as a hey we thought you could use this, let us know how it worked.

From a scientific and legal stand point it don't make much sense to have it tested in the field. So thats the only reason I can think there doing it, just because they care you know?

Well, unless they want to test it's effectiveness if applied by untrained (in it's use) medical professionals in an emergency situation. Sure they could give it to ambulance crews for that, but a war zone is a much more exstream and thus a better suited test for that, and there is the fact that sadly that is the best place to find emergency situations with exstream flesh wounds. With ambulances you only looking at maybe seeing them used in car wrecks, on the battlefield your almost garrented there will be wounds like that on a regular basis.

[Eldan]

I don't see why it would be used on battlefields or in ambulances in the present state. It's a slow procedure and the application wouldn't stop anyone from bleeding out, so it seems to me that first dressing the wounds and stopping bloodflow and infection would be far more important. One can think about regrowing limbs days later in the hospital.

[Azraile]

Well it works by changing the bodies reaction to a wound from scabbing over to regenerating flesh.

And blood will clot around ECM...

They are using ECM blood clot bridges to heal torn ACLs right now.

But yah you would want to get the ECM to the wound before it starts to scab over.

[Brother Oni]

I know, it makes a lot more sense to be done in a controlled environment. I think there doing it less as a clinical trial and more as a hey we thought you could use this, let us know how it worked.

That's still a clinical trial, even if the clinic is a field hospital out in Afghanistan.

That said, I'm finding lots of references to it being used State-side on wounded soldiers and other people who have suffered muscle loss through injury, but nothing on it being used in the field - could you link what you've found please?



Well, unless they want to test it's effectiveness if applied by untrained (in it's use) medical professionals in an emergency situation. Sure they could give it to ambulance crews for that, but a war zone is a much more exstream and thus a better suited test for that, and there is the fact that sadly that is the best place to find emergency situations with exstream flesh wounds. With ambulances you only looking at maybe seeing them used in car wrecks, on the battlefield your almost garrented there will be wounds like that on a regular basis.

Are you sure you're not confusing it for anti-haemorrhagics?


Well it works by changing the bodies reaction to a wound from scabbing over to regenerating flesh.

ECM isn't a magic powder you pour over the wound and you start regenerating like Wolverine. It requires direction otherwise you start looking like Tetsuo during the finale to Akira.
The ECM forms a framework that attracts stem cells as it degrades. These stem cells are then stimulated to differentiate into the desired tissue - in the articles I found, physical therapy before and after the surgery triggered the development of the attracted stem cells to develop into muscle: link (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/30/grow-muscle-injured-legs-stem-cells-pig-material_n_5242189.html).


But yah you would want to get the ECM to the wound before it starts to scab over.

The articles I read have the surgeons removing the keloid tissue surgically before using ECM to stimulate growth, so it's perfectly possible to do it post-injury. This article (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/30/grow-muscle-injured-legs-stem-cells-pig-material_n_5242189.html) references a clinical trial where the patients had suffered their injury from a year to seven years beforehand.

[Azraile]

ECM isn't a magic powder you pour over the wound and you start regenerating like Wolverine. It requires direction otherwise you start looking like Tetsuo during the finale to Akira.


Like this:
http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/dangerroom/2011/11/regenmuscle.jpg

Yikes... lol

But yah I said it was a clinical trial, there shipping it over there but they have to sign up for the trial and everything before they will do it. They just probably have clipboards with the documents ready and bring them out the second some ones wounded that baddy. lol I know I would if I was over there doing it. Would be reading them the terms, conditions, and explaining the risks as quickly as possible while they are doing triage.

It was on a science channel show I watched that talked about it being sent over seas. And yes they are just packing the wounds full of ECM powder and letting the tissue regrow. It works perfectly all wolverine style on small wounds but as you can see above... on big ones you get elephant man growth. X.x But the regrown tissue functions normally so who cares what it looks like right now...

I would rather have some horribly disfigured looking, but fully functional leg than a robotic one. At least with the way tech is now, that will change i'm sure but by then they will also have this worked out so some machine applies the ECM in a matrix to control the way it grows back rather than just giving it the material to grow over and hoping it grows right.

Thanks for the last bit there, I was wondering if it worked on healed over skin and stuff..... I was wondering, like what... can they just cut the scar tissue away and apply ECM treatment to the surgically removed area? The whole thing seams far fetched to begin with, but that just seams crazy. That is so encouraging to know it works to a degree. This means that some day they can cut off the end of some one stump and start growing them a new arm/leg. No matter how far off that may be, the fact that we know it's possible now is just awesome.

[Azraile]

And there are people like you that are just flat out calling bull **** on the 'magic powder' ECM regeneration. Even going so far as to say all the results have been faked.

I understand how ECM works, not as well as you and the other people researching it, and yes it dose sound rather fantastic and hard to beleave.

Personally makes me wish I had some of this stuff and a pig with a missing leg. >.>

See just how true this stuff is, and just how far it can work.

[Brother Oni]

It was on a science channel show I watched that talked about it being sent over seas. And yes they are just packing the wounds full of ECM powder and letting the tissue regrow. It works perfectly all wolverine style on small wounds but as you can see above... on big ones you get elephant man growth. X.x But the regrown tissue functions normally so who cares what it looks like right now...

According to that last trial I linked, 5 out of 7 patients re-gained sufficient function to be classed as a success (~20% of previous function). The other two made gains, but not to the 20% threshold. 20% function over zero function is still a massive improvement, especially since with additional therapy or surgery, the body could theoretically regain more function.



I was wondering, like what... can they just cut the scar tissue away and apply ECM treatment to the surgically removed area?

Yup. To the body, a wound is a wound, no matter how it's formed. Think of it as applying a proper fix over an emergency patch job - you have to remove the patch job first, right?


And there are people like you that are just flat out calling bull **** on the 'magic powder' ECM regeneration. Even going so far as to say all the results have been faked.

I've never said that ECM didn't work, just that it didn't work in the way you seemed to think.

I haven't read anything on the ability for it to regenerate bone though (they seem to be focused on muscle repair at the moment), so regrowing amputated limbs may still be a way off.



I understand how ECM works, not as well as you and the other people researching it, and yes it dose sound rather fantastic and hard to beleave.


It's only hard to believe if you don't really understand the science, but consider this - I can talk to someone 6,000 miles away as if I was having a face to face conversation. If you didn't understand the science behind that, it would be equally fantastic.

[SiuiS]

I don't see why it would be used on battlefields or in ambulances in the present state. It's a slow procedure and the application wouldn't stop anyone from bleeding out, so it seems to me that first dressing the wounds and stopping bloodflow and infection would be far more important. One can think about regrowing limbs days later in the hospital.

You need an open wound though. (Yeah, I know it was covered, but my phone doesn't want to select and delete quotes so meh)


According to that last trial I linked, 5 out of 7 patients re-gained sufficient function to be classed as a success (~20% of previous function). The other two made gains, but not to the 20% threshold. 20% function over zero function is still a massive improvement, especially since with additional therapy or surgery, the body could theoretically regain more function.



Yup. To the body, a wound is a wound, no matter how it's formed. Think of it as applying a proper fix over an emergency patch job - you have to remove the patch job first, right?



I've never said that ECM didn't work, just that it didn't work in the way you seemed to think.

I haven't read anything on the ability for it to regenerate bone though (they seem to be focused on muscle repair at the moment), so regrowing amputated limbs may still be a way off.



It's only hard to believe if you don't really understand the science, but consider this - I can talk to someone 6,000 miles away as if I was having a face to face conversation. If you didn't understand the science behind that, it would be equally fantastic.

Bone has the problem of the epipheseal plate, I believe? I don't remember any details, but even when this kind of tech was a gleam in an engineer's eye, the theoretical differences were enough to make bone problematic. It seems like the process for a new limb would require you to be immobilized in, like, a medical coma. Form a replacement bone structure (and forget about perfect hands and feet, man) by measuring your remaining limb, fuse that into place; stretch the skin of the limb to make it grow enough to cover the whole thing; put ECM muscle forms into place and mind both the connections, and origins/insertions of musculature, whole thing like a 3D model of an actual arm in perfect detail; keep everything moist and open and alive and circulating as the body slowly rebuilds the musculature along the ECM lines and vasculature through both muscle and bone; routinely force movement of the exposed muscle tissue to generate and direct growth; stretch skin over and suture shut.

And that's leaving out the difficulties of making a perfect replica of the remaining bone. Bone isn't tissue in the same way everything else replaced is; bone constantly sucks it's cells in and out, leaving behind their skeletons (sorry, sorry) to keep form. Cells elsewhere so this too, but they don't leave their corpses behind as guides, they slough them. Only the very ends of bones are alive, the rest is structure and storage.



Mind it's late, I'm woozy, and not a doctor. But the armchair biology seems sound.

[Azraile]

Yes a finger tip is one thing, sure it's complicated in it's own right and there nerves bone marrow and bone... all sorts of stuff that shouldn't regenerate that will.

But it's all on a very small scale and don't have much to grow for....

But you talk about an entire leg and there are way more complications thrown on it. Like you said with a finger tip there is nothing to immobilize, just cover it up. With the mussel section it's just feeling in the gap of one type of tissue. But you have all sorts of tissue types that will shift about in a limb while it's growing if moved.

If they can regrow two nerves into each other, they may have to cut the nerves to the leg to keep it still enough for it to work, then heal the nerves after the leg is fully regrown. O.O

And then there is past the seven year mark... then what? After around seven years all the tissue in the area will be constructed of entirely different cells than when the injury happened.... I don't think that makes a difference, but it might.

[Azraile]

You need an open wound though. (Yeah, I know it was covered, but my phone doesn't want to select and delete quotes so meh)



Bone has the problem of the epipheseal plate, I believe? I don't remember any details, but even when this kind of tech was a gleam in an engineer's eye, the theoretical differences were enough to make bone problematic. It seems like the process for a new limb would require you to be immobilized in, like, a medical coma. Form a replacement bone structure (and forget about perfect hands and feet, man) by measuring your remaining limb, fuse that into place; stretch the skin of the limb to make it grow enough to cover the whole thing; put ECM muscle forms into place and mind both the connections, and origins/insertions of musculature, whole thing like a 3D model of an actual arm in perfect detail; keep everything moist and open and alive and circulating as the body slowly rebuilds the musculature along the ECM lines and vasculature through both muscle and bone; routinely force movement of the exposed muscle tissue to generate and direct growth; stretch skin over and suture shut.

And that's leaving out the difficulties of making a perfect replica of the remaining bone. Bone isn't tissue in the same way everything else replaced is; bone constantly sucks it's cells in and out, leaving behind their skeletons (sorry, sorry) to keep form. Cells elsewhere so this too, but they don't leave their corpses behind as guides, they slough them. Only the very ends of bones are alive, the rest is structure and storage.



Mind it's late, I'm woozy, and not a doctor. But the armchair biology seems sound.

Yah a medical coma makes the most sense, it would be worth it wouldn't it?

The powder seams to be working, but they haven't tried regrowing more than tissue clusters and the fingertip as far as I know. But your right even if it don't work for inter limbs a 3D molded ECM metrix will... it's almost garentied by the research.

The big problem though.... nerve connections, getting nerves to connect and grow right..

The blood clots around the powder forming a sorta blank slate matrix... It's defiantly not as good as fully molded matrix.

The super blood clots the ECM powered forms may bridge nerve growth into a matrix though even if it can't regrow an entire limb. So it might still be key in limb regeneration.


As for bone, the marrow is alive and it seams it will grow new bone into the blank matrix.

[Brother Oni]

If they can regrow two nerves into each other...

If ECM could regrow nerves, then there would be massive, massive interest in it, particularly for spine injuries.

From what I understand of the biology of nerve cells though, ECM wouldn't be able to do this (I'm willing to be proven wrong).



And then there is past the seven year mark... then what? After around seven years all the tissue in the area will be constructed of entirely different cells than when the injury happened.... I don't think that makes a difference, but it might.

Why would it, if they're removing the tissue around the affected area to create a new wound?

The seven year mark is apparently the oldest injury person they could recruit to the trial, but I would have to read up on the study details to confirm this.

[Mr. Mask]

Didn't they mention some nerve matter regrowing in the case of the fingers? I thought I saw mention of that, but am by no means certain.

[Eldan]

Nerve regrowth has become a complicated topic, lately. I think the latest answer is still "We don't know if they regrow".

[Azraile]

The guys nerves in his finger tip apparently grew back, but I can't say for sure on that.

But I know one thing, even if they did grow nerves it was just prompted regeneration, they still have no way of guiding nerve growth.

Making nerves grow back and making them grow where you want are two very very very different things, particularly if your trying to get two nerve endings to grow together.

If anyone can figure out that second one it would solve so many problems. But sadly it looks like the only way that will happen in nano-tech.

[Starwulf]

If ECM could regrow nerves, then there would be massive, massive interest in it, particularly for spine injuries.

From what I understand of the biology of nerve cells though, ECM wouldn't be able to do this (I'm willing to be proven wrong).


If it could fix/regrow nerves, AND regrow/fix bones, I'd be a happy camper. Due to my back injury, I have a handful of pinched nerves in my back that can't be fixed due to the injury itself(3 verterbrae crushed like a soda pop can). Unfortunately, one without the other is useless, so It'd have to be pretty much a wonder-cure for my situation and not just regrow flesh, but nerves and bones as well. Ahhh well, I can dream! I still have 15-20 years before they say I'll be in a wheelchair, I keep my fingers crossed that something comes along that can fix me.

[Grinner]

Nerve regrowth has become a complicated topic, lately. I think the latest answer is still "We don't know if they regrow".

There was an excellent discussion elsewhere on these forums about this. I believe I had mentioned the pig bladder trick and related it to nerve regrowth, and someone else chimed in with the complications of glial mitosis or something. I think Raven's_cry was there as well.


If it could fix/regrow nerves, AND regrow/fix bones, I'd be a happy camper. Due to my back injury, I have a handful of pinched nerves in my back that can't be fixed due to the injury itself(3 verterbrae crushed like a soda pop can). Unfortunately, one without the other is useless, so It'd have to be pretty much a wonder-cure for my situation and not just regrow flesh, but nerves and bones as well. Ahhh well, I can dream! I still have 15-20 years before they say I'll be in a wheelchair, I keep my fingers crossed that something comes along that can fix me.

There are options besides nerve repair, you know. Again, getting someone to do it commercially (legally, really) is the primary obstacle, but scientists have come up with a number of solutions for this problem.

[Brother Oni]

If it could fix/regrow nerves, AND regrow/fix bones, I'd be a happy camper. Due to my back injury, I have a handful of pinched nerves in my back that can't be fixed due to the injury itself(3 verterbrae crushed like a soda pop can). Unfortunately, one without the other is useless, so It'd have to be pretty much a wonder-cure for my situation and not just regrow flesh, but nerves and bones as well. Ahhh well, I can dream! I still have 15-20 years before they say I'll be in a wheelchair, I keep my fingers crossed that something comes along that can fix me.

There's been some work in artificial vertebrae (http://openwetware.org/wiki/Artifical_Vertebrae,_by_Matthew_McNulty), but it comes with significant issues, the main issue being a collapse of the vertebrae (one product was recalled and the bone cement used has subsequently been found to be highly dangerous).

It still doesn't fix the nerve regrowth issue though.

[Starwulf]

There are options besides nerve repair, you know. Again, getting someone to do it commercially (legally, really) is the primary obstacle, but scientists have come up with a number of solutions for this problem.

Sadly, for my injury, there are NO options, at least none that I have managed to find, and I've been to dozens of Doctors who specialize in Back Surgery. For now, all I can personally do is sit back and wait and hope that something comes along that can permanently fix me.

Now, if you are referring to pain management, yes, I know there are several options, most of which I'm not exactly fond of. Burning the nerves is one I'm against, the pre-test they do left me in agonizing pain for a week, literally incapable of getting up off the couch. If the pre-test did that, I'm not willing to risk them actually burning the nerve endings. Coritizone(sone?) shots I'm not interested in either, I personally know several people who have had them for other injuries(knee and leg and hip respectively), and while the shots did great for the pain, it actually increased the decay rate of the bone, and all 3 of the people had to have major reconstructive surgery involving metal implants, and if Surgery was an option for me in the first place, I'd have already gone that route. Right now my pain management doctor is trying to convince me to have an Epidural shot(yes, the same thing they give pregnant women). I'm still not fond of it, though it seems to have less drawbacks, but it is also a more constant thing, and I really hate needles. For now I'm just sticking with Mobic(for the arthritis that's developed), Tramadol/Oxys, and my new Pain cream they recently gave me(really strong stuff, has Ketamine in it) that works really freaking nicely.


There's been some work in artificial vertebrae (http://openwetware.org/wiki/Artifical_Vertebrae,_by_Matthew_McNulty), but it comes with significant issues, the main issue being a collapse of the vertebrae (one product was recalled and the bone cement used has subsequently been found to be highly dangerous).

It still doesn't fix the nerve regrowth issue though.

Unfortunately anything involving actually going into my back is a extremely complicated, there are multiple bone chips that are lodged in there, safely right now, but if they go in and mess up, I'm paralyzed from the waist down, and no doctor has quoted me better odds then 60-65% of not being paralyzed, which quite frankly, sucks. I'd rather remain in the extreme pain I am in now, but maintain my mobility for the next 15-20 years, then risk them going in to put cement blocks in and possibly leave me paralyzed now. Also, according to several(but not all, they seem to be in disagreement) of the doctors I've spoken with, the Cement Block thing is a stop-gap measure that will only last 5-10 years, after which I'll actually be worse off pain wise then I was before ><

[Grinner]

Unfortunately anything involving actually going into my back is a extremely complicated, there are multiple bone chips that are lodged in there, safely right now, but if they go in and mess up, I'm paralyzed from the waist down, and no doctor has quoted me better odds then 60-65% of not being paralyzed, which quite frankly, sucks.

I was under the impression you were already paraplegic... :smallredface:

So yeah, what I had in mind (cybernetics) really isn't even applicable.

[Starwulf]

I was under the impression you were already paraplegic... :smallredface:

So yeah, what I had in mind (cybernetics) really isn't even applicable.

Oh, no, thankfully I'm still mobile, but again, only for X amount of years(it varies, but the general consensus is to expect to be in a wheelchair by the time I'm 50).

[SiuiS]

Didn't they mention some nerve matter regrowing in the case of the fingers? I thought I saw mention of that, but am by no means certain.

The finger tip is a bit of a workaround. We can't make the body "re"grow nerves. But we can make a body grow a finger as if it was the first time, and that includes the nerves of a finger.

But that's a different bag. It feels connotatively different. We just need to find, scientifically, what's the tipping point. Could you regrow a finger? Well, yeah. Mostly. Can we regrow it independent of a body? Could we basically regrow a clone finger and take it's nerves? Can we grow nerves in isolation?

Muscle tissue and fingers especially grow nerves all the time. Or reconnect them. But we can't do that ourselves? We can grow tissue that would then go on to grow it's own nerves but not grow nerves?

[Brother Oni]

But that's a different bag. It feels connotatively different. We just need to find, scientifically, what's the tipping point. Could you regrow a finger? Well, yeah. Mostly. Can we regrow it independent of a body?

This is the main issue with cloning replacement parts and a major plot point of The Island and other films.

Growing a part independently of a body is very difficult, to the point where it's simpler to just grow the entire body and harvest it afterwards. While grafting is a potential alternative, you still need something as the 'seed' of the new part and not all parts are capable of being grafted (internal organs for example) or grown from scratch (yet).

The ethical and moral dilemmas in the first option abound, while the second has attracted negative media attention in certain cases (artifical human ear on the back of a mouse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacanti_mouse), but a man's hand grafted to his foot (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-25405543) seems acceptable).

Edit: The first option is also neglecting the time taken to grow the part to the appropriate size, but most sci-fi that deals with this usually has some form of optimised process to focus growth of the desired component.
From a real world point of view, it shouldn't be too difficult to improve blood supply to the part and give it all the additional nutrients and growth factors required, especially at the expense of the rest of the host body. While it would mean the host body is pretty much an unviable self sustaining organism, it wouldn't matter as it's kept under intensive care conditions to care for its needs and it's only going to be around long enough until the parts can be harvested.

[SiuiS]

Yes. That's the value of the ECM, it's not growing something from scratch, it's "healing" a full-grown part over a structure that is designed to facilitate it.

Perhaps that's going to be the eternal rub? We can grow you a new baby arm, that'll work in about twenty years with targeted hormone therapy, maybe. Or we can regrow your hand but it won't work, not be a proper hand. You won't feel anything, and no bones. Just metal supports and meat.

[Brother Oni]

Perhaps that's going to be the eternal rub? We can grow you a new baby arm, that'll work in about twenty years with targeted hormone therapy, maybe.

I was thinking substantially less time than 20 years. Other large mammals develop far more quickly than humans (we're the slowest apparently), for example some horse breeds reach 75-90% of their adult size in less than a year, so plus gestation, that's just under 2 years.

Presumably the bone development would be the most time consuming, so the possibility of having an artificial structure for the tissue to develop around (much like how ECM works) could be possible - pre-grow the skeletal part of the arm (so 'off the shelf' models) which the muscle, vascular system and nerves develop around to reduce chance of rejection.

Pie in the sky thinking, taking the volume of an arm to be 2,300ml, the volume of a cell to be 2.32 cubic micrometres, a cell generation time of 20 minutes, and no differentiation or cirulatory issues, it would take ~16.7hrs to build an arm out of a single cell.


Or we can regrow your hand but it won't work, not be a proper hand. You won't feel anything, and no bones. Just metal supports and meat.

Well that's probably the most extreme way to do a T-800 costume for Halloween, complete with flesh pulling party trick.

[Azraile]

Well there is a big difference between the finger tip and everything else, the finger tip had the basic start of the whole structure of that joint (not much but still some) all it was doing was growing out the rest of the bone and nerve structure that was already there.

You get into more complicated areas you run into problems like growing bones that there is nothing left of them, connecting nerves that were cut off from each other, creating blood and nerve networks rather than just finishing them.

The fact ECM allows the body to regenerate lost tissue is amazing, but it's a far cry from us healing like a newt (like that guy was working torge), we still got a bit to go there... but it's a step in the right direction... a big step.

I am sure they are hard at work now on the reconnecting severed networks, and growing bones that are completely gone now.


Oh, no, thankfully I'm still mobile, but again, only for X amount of years(it varies, but the general consensus is to expect to be in a wheelchair by the time I'm 50).

Well it sounds like they could remove the damaged bone and make what is left regrow.... but that's a ridiculously huge risk there that no doctor would be willing to take.

However it's a fair assumption that they may have a way to reconnect nerves or repair this condition before you find yourself in a wheel chair ... or relatively reasonable time after.... can't really say for shure but the prospect looks promising, enough that I would have hope for a fix turning up in the next 20 years.

[Salbazier]

Ahh, I've red about ECM use for this in magazine several years ago (the research begins with a dog, more precisely, IIRC part of the dog's heart and ECM from its intestine). Glad to hear they managed to put it to practical use on human.