Cavalier Dragonrider Archetype vs. SGG 'Dragonrider' Class [PF]

[SweaterKittens]

Hey all! In an upcoming game a buddy of mine is running, I'm planning on playing a Tiefling Dragonrider. While I had initially planned on using the Cavalier Archetype provided in a Class Acts supplement, I recently stumbled upon Super Genius Games Dragonrider class. I'm generally wary of third party material, but the general consensus seems to be: Balanced. So then it just becomes which one? They are both rather similar, flavor-wise, so I thought I'd ask the Playground and it's more experienced patrons what would be the pros/cons and issues they see arising with either choice? Since they are both from supplements and the information is not readily available, I will try to provide as much as I can here, so that anyone can weigh in.

The Dragonrider - Cavalier Archetype

Surprisingly, this one doesn't actually change that much of the base Cavalier class. You trade out Handle Animal for Knowledge (Arcana), and lose proficiency with Heavy armor. Your steed, which is actually a 'drake' type monster instead of an actual dragon, is a Large creature with (30ft Land, 40ft Fly(average), AC +6 Natural Armor, some measly bite and claw attacks, Str 16, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 15, a breath weapon that does 2d4 in a cone with reflex for half, Dark and low-light vision, and Draconic immunities). You of course lose your standard 'mount' class feature, as well as expert trainer. Additionally, you lose some of the effectiveness of your teamwork feats with your allies, but they now apply to your drake as well. Pretty cut and dry. Your Drake gets a nice boost at 4th level which gives it +4 to Str and Con, as well as +1 Natural Armor and doubles the dice on its breath weapon to 4d4.

Dragonrider (Super Genius Games) http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/dragonrider

Now with this guy you actually get a full-blown, badass, slightly-nerfed, chromatic or metallic dragon to raise from a wee tiner. Since the info for this class is online, I'll be a little more succinct. You lose out on anything but light armor prof, but you gain the ability to cast spells without spell failure chance. You also get full BAB and saves, as well as some resistances, enhanced senses, and minor arcane spellcasting (up to 4th level spells). The big doozy with this one is that while you may get a fancy red/gold dragon to ride around on, you require 'focus' to make it do anything but fly around in a circle. It requires a standard/move/swift/free action on the rider's part to focus with their mount and make them do more than a basic move action. Which means early on, especially with the bigger, scarier dragons, you're not going to have a whole lot of options.

TLDR
Both Classes:
+ Get a Draconic mount and have the ability to fly at Level 1
+ Have Full BAB
+ Gets Bonus Feats

Cavalier Dragonrider:
+ Gets a Large Drake from Level 1, gets badass at level 4
+ Gets Challenge, Order Abilities, Tactician abilities, and Banner abilities (good for teamplay, and makes the rider stand out on his own)
+ Has med armor prof.
+ Gets several charge-related feats for free

SGG Dragonrider:
+ Gets a Medium/Large True Dragon from level 1, which gets badass at level 8, and truly retarded at level 16
+ Gets full Saves
+ Gets some Snazzy resistances and enhanced sense boons
+ Gets minor arcane spellcasting (and can do it in light armor for free)


To me, it seems as though the Cavalier Dragonrider basically gives you a 'supercharged' mount in exchange for some of the usefulness of Tactician and the ability to be even remotely competent with normal animals, while the SGG Dragonrider takes away everything else useful about being a Cavalier and gives you a mount that has the capacity to dish out a truly outrageous amount of hurt by the time you are a high level. My biggest concern is that since the Cavalier's drake only advances once at 4th level, they will quickly be outclassed once the party gets to, say, level 10 or higher, and that would be a shame. Of course, the Cavalier Dragonrider's mount never gets larger than Large, so while it's size is limiting, it's not quite as limiting as a Gargantuan mount.

I'm still a bit fresh to Pathfinder, and I would love some input on which is better/more flavourful/easier to optimize, and which one will stay viable into high-level play. Currently I'm leaning towards the Cavalier Archetype.

[stack]

Watch strength and carry capacity carefully if you ride a medium dragon with a medium character.

[Beowulf DW]

In terms of sheer power and versatility, I'd say that the SGG Dragonrider class would eventually come out on top, if only because of the spells. With this class, you basically have two modes. When you're out in the open, you're in Rider mode. You'll be spending most of your time on the dragon, sacrificing your moves for Focus so that your dragon can do its thing. When you're not in the open, which is quite likely given the nature of this system, you'll be in Walking mode, during which the dragon will likely not be able to help you much and you'll be functioning as a lightly armored fighter at low levels and a spell-starved Eldritch Knight at higher levels.

Never underestimate the power of magic.

In terms of roleplaying, the Dragonrider class is bursting with flavor. Does the dragon see you as its equal? Does it see some hidden potential in you? Why has such a fantastic creature agreed to be your partner?

Just one more note. If you ever grow uncomfortable with using 3rd party classes, keep in mind that the Summoner can achieve a dragonrider feel if you build your character and your eidolon for it.

[SweaterKittens]

@Stack: True. Most of the dragons from the SGG Dragonrider start with enough strength to carry your light-armor wearing ass around without too much difficulty - as well as being able to fly even while heavily encumbered.

@Beowulf: Do you think that 4th level casting will really improve his versatility? To me it seems as though losing out on all of your teamwork, banner, and order abilities would grossly inhibit his versatility - but again, I'm still rather fresh to this and I might be missing something.

I do love the rp opportunities and flavor provided with both of the classes. More so with the SGG Dragonrider, since it's an actual dragon as opposed to just a smart Drake. My concern is that in a party consisting of a Summoner, a Ranger, and some sort of archer, Going SGG Dragonrider will be too squishy at early levels, before I can hide behind my massive terrorbeast.

As far as 3rd party goes, I personally have no problem with 3rd party stuff, I think they add a lot of fun elements, but my DM might - we'll see. Summoner is an interesting idea, and I will certainly look into that. Although I will probably shy away from it in the end since my character's backstory is already mostly crafted, and we have another summoner in the group.

[stack]

Of course, if you want to break things, look at the section on stacking dragon levels with familiar/animal companion/etc. then dragon rider is a one level dip and you get a stronger class that also has a dragon.

Less cheesy, vital strike would actually be good when you have a move action focus, retrain when it gets shorter though.

[Feint's End]

The dragonrider class is most certainly better due to spells and a better pet. Also you have more charisma synergy. While cavaliers are undeniably stuck at t4 dragonrider are either high t4 or low t3 depending on how you measure their versatility.

If you are worried about being too squishy I suggest you go dex focused melee. Pick half elf or tengu for a race to get profiency with the elven two handed weapon which allows to be used with weaponfinesse. Then pick weapon finesse as your first feat.
All you have to do now is to pick up an agile weapon and you are only a little behind a str fighter in damage with better rk (works well with your light armor limitation) and initiative. Just make sure you also got a strength of 13 so you can take power attack. And you are golden.

It depends on what kind of flavour you want but I like the idea of a dexterous half elven sword master with a big curved sword riding a dragon a lot.

It is true that you can build something similar with a summoner but it's not the same. After all it is still an eidolon and vanishes after you sleep or if you want to summon monsters. Never gonna be the same as with a real dragon.

[SweaterKittens]

@stack: Oh man, I was just reading about the one-level dip you can do in Dragonrider to make it truly ridiculous. However, if I know my DM (and I do) he's going to think this class is overpowered at a glance, so I'd prefer to tread lightly xD Vital Strike I great though, that might definitely help out while Focus is more costly.

@Feint's End: I think, given the response and after looking a bit more thoroughly, I am going to go with SSG's Dragonrider class. The Charisma synergy and the pet that's more than just a smart winged horse with fire breath is too great to pass up.

You know, I was actually planning on going Charger, with lances and Spirited Charge, Death from Above, Rampage, and all that, but I never considered just going standard melee, or dex focused. I'm pretty set on Tiefling, just do to flavor and background, but I can take a heritage that gives me Dex+ if I decide to go that route. Regardless, I will also take Armor of the Pit, which grants me +2 Natural Armor, and I was also thinking of taking Nimble Mount along with Mounted Combat and Trick Riding, so between my rider and my dragon, they should be able to negate a good bit of damage to each other.

I had also considered taking EWP in Harpoons, and having the end tied to my saddle, for some fun harpooning people and then dragging them up into the sky, but I realized that Harpoons only grapple on a crit, and that's no fun.

[kalasulmar]

I home-brewed a prestige Dragon Rider for our cav / fighter. Based it on teamwork feats for rider and mount while giving them seperate abilities with the capstone being Strafing Breath for the dragon.