Vow of Poverty.

[Yael]

So, I already know what the playground thinks about this awesomely broken-chesish feat that allows your character to become god (especially as a monk), but is this feat that OP?

I mean, there must exist an actual use where this feat actually is useful, right? Somewhere in some class?

Green means sarcasm.

[Sir Chuckles]

I think that certain divine spellcasters (Druid, Cleric) can get away with it.

Also, c'mon, it's not even Monday.

[Rubik]

I think that certain divine spellcasters (Druid, Cleric) can get away with it.

Also, c'mon, it's not even Monday.VoP clerics can't use holy symbols.

Basically, if you're going to use VoP, toss it on a druid or psion. Incarnum classes might possibly find it of some use, since their item slots are restricted anyway, but they're less viable than the other two.

Just don't expect to ever be able to sleep indoors, hide under a roof during a thunderstorm, step on a carpet, open a door, read a poster or book, look at a painting or statue, or set off a trap without losing your vow.

[georgie_leech]

Vow of Poverty is for a character that wants to forsake material possessions. Period. Full stop. If you're going to play such a character, take VoP. The alternative is having nothing. Otherwise, VoP is never a straight upgrade to your character, and should best be avoided. If you have a high cheese tolerance though, you could always benefit indirectly by throwing it on an Exalted Animal Companion.

[Yael]

Vow of Poverty is for a character that wants to forsake material possessions. Period. Full stop. If you're going to play such a character, take VoP. The alternative is having nothing. Otherwise, VoP is never a straight upgrade to your character, and should best be avoided. If you have a high cheese tolerance though, you could always benefit indirectly by throwing it on an Exalted Animal Companion.

Wait, wait, what?

Can animals take that feat? I mean, can they make vows? O.O

[ben-zayb]

You could put it on your Animal Companion(s), assuming you won't trick it(them) out with magic items.

[Rubik]

Wait, wait, what?

Can animals take that feat? I mean, can they make vows? O.OExalted animal companions are magical beasts with Int scores greater than 2.

[georgie_leech]

Exalted animal companions are magical beasts with Int scores greater than 2.

What he said. Since the basic non-AC creature wouldn't have had items in the first place, it makes Animal Companions that have access to things like Barding or whatever to be the exception, as opposed to basically every sapient race in D&D who generally have access to at least some wealth, so it strikes me as cheesy. It is technically RAW-legal though. Gouda-tastic even, since in this case it actually increases your effective wealth 'cause you don't need to spend it on the aforementioned Barding etc.

[Sir Chuckles]

VoP clerics can't use holy symbols.

Wow, really? I thought that that was on the list of approved items.
Ah, well. Have you weapon be designed after your holy symbol. "Pelor Sun Mace!"
...or take Craft: Scarification.

[HammeredWharf]

VoP is really good on an animal companion, but even then it's not OP. The main reason for that being that it's very defensive, while your companion is quite expendable and often very tough even without VoP.

[Rubik]

If there's anything VoP is really good at, it's de-emphasizing the "murder" and emphasizing the "hobo" in the term "murderhobo."

[Tokiko Mima]

What he said. Since the basic non-AC creature wouldn't have had items in the first place, it makes Animal Companions that have access to things like Barding or whatever to be the exception, as opposed to basically every sapient race in D&D who generally have access to at least some wealth, so it strikes me as cheesy. It is technically RAW-legal though. Gouda-tastic even, since in this case it actually increases your effective wealth 'cause you don't need to spend it on the aforementioned Barding etc.


Having a character in the party who has taken a vow of poverty should not necessarily mean that the other party members get bigger shares of treasure! An ascetic character must be as extreme in works of charity as she is in self-denial. The majority of her share of party treasure (or the profits from the sale thereof ) should be donated to the needy, either directly (equipping rescued captives with gear taken from their fallen captors) or indirectly (making a large donation to a temple noted for its work among the poor).

Technically, you still have to buy your VoP exalted warhorse barding. Your companion is just required to go down the the local poverty sticken horse stable, and donate it's material gains to charity. This totally makes sense because, of course, how do you think Mr. Ed was able to afford an NPC spell casting of Awaken Animal? :smalltongue:

[georgie_leech]

Technically, you still have to buy your VoP exalted warhorse barding. Your companion is just required to go down the the local poverty sticken horse stable, and donate it's material gains to charity. This totally makes sense because, of course, how do you think Mr. Ed was able to afford an NPC spell casting of Awaken Animal? :smalltongue:

Since when does the AC get an equal share of the treasure? People I've played with usually just have the Druid or whatever use their own share, or at best they donate a little extra; I've never seen a Druid get an extra share just to kit out their class feature.

[Rubik]

Technically, you still have to buy your VoP exalted warhorse barding. Your companion is just required to go down the the local poverty sticken horse stable, and donate it's material gains to charity. This totally makes sense because, of course, how do you think Mr. Ed was able to afford an NPC spell casting of Awaken Animal? :smalltongue:VoP party members get their normal shares of treasure.

An animal companion's "normal" share of treasure is whatever his PC companion gives him.

Which, in this case, is nothing.

[Tokiko Mima]

The point is, you can't deprive a VoP creature of treasure (barding, etc.) on the basis of it having this vow. If it would be awarded treasure for whatever reason, it has to donate it. It would be out of character to refuse to buy it barding or other basic protections simply because it will never be able to use it.

I suppose you could make an argument for the fact that you 'own' your AC, but in that case, you also 'own' the barding and the AC is not borrowing it at all. You are just using the your own items on the AC's behalf. Slavery seems to solve everything. :smallamused:

[Rubik]

The point is, you can't deprive a VoP creature of treasure (barding, etc.) on the basis of it having this vow. If it would be awarded treasure for whatever reason, it has to donate it. It would be out of character to refuse to buy it barding or other basic protections simply because it will never be able to use it.

I suppose you could make an argument for the fact that you 'own' your AC, but in that case, you also 'own' the barding and the AC is not borrowing it at all. You are just using the your own items on the AC's behalf. Slavery seems to solve everything. :smallamused:Plain sets of leather barding aren't terribly expensive, except maybe at level 1.

[HammeredWharf]

The point is, you can't deprive a VoP creature of treasure (barding, etc.) on the basis of it having this vow.

You're not depriving it of treasure. It wouldn't be getting any treasure to begin with. Any wealth you invest in your animal companion is YOUR wealth, not the companion's.


It would be out of character to refuse to buy it barding or other basic protections simply because it will never be able to use it.

Unless your character is a complete idiot, not buying something because it'll never be used is a very good in-character reason.

PC: "Hey there, my pointy-headed buddy! Do you want some barding?"
Unicorn: "Thanks, but no. I've vowed not to take any material possessions."
PC: "Oh, ok. I guess I'll buy something for myself, then."

A good character keeping a unicorn as a pet is questionable for several reasons, but this isn't one of them.

[prufock]

Druids can make use of it (divine focus is free, no material components, no spellbook, can wild shape to get most of what they need), but even then it isn't better than just having wealth.

Also, if we can put this on an animal companion, how about a familiar?

[Elderand]

The thing is, wheter it is used on druids or animal companion, VoP is still a straight downgrade from using items. It's just that it hurts druids and animal companions less than it does everyone else.

VoP is never good, it simply varies from "might as well burn your character sheet" to "amusingly bad" based on who or what takes it.

[Dimers]

Also, if we can put this on an animal companion, how about a familiar?

At least two freely-chooseable feats are required for VoP. Animal companions gain hit dice, and therefore gain feats. Familiars and psicrystals don't. You could also boost a paladin's warhorse or other hit-die-gaining thing. This all assumes that the DM agrees you can choose your friend's build, which is generally true but not spelled out as RAW.

[Segev]

Given that you can benefit from being buffed, if you're not an equipment-heavy-dependent build, VoP can work as long as you've got some dedicated buffers willing to help you out. This goes for animal companions, as well: the paladin or druid can buff the heck out of them without violating their companion's Vow.

[Rubik]

At least two freely-chooseable feats are required for VoP. Animal companions gain hit dice, and therefore gain feats. Familiars and psicrystals don't. You could also boost a paladin's warhorse or other hit-die-gaining thing. This all assumes that the DM agrees you can choose your friend's build, which is generally true but not spelled out as RAW.Fixed that for you. Psicrystals explicitly gain HD, and, therefore, feats and ability boosts.

[Phelix-Mu]

Vow of Poverty is for a character that wants to forsake material possessions. Period. Full stop. If you're going to play such a character, take VoP. The alternative is having nothing. Otherwise, VoP is never a straight upgrade to your character, and should best be avoided. If you have a high cheese tolerance though, you could always benefit indirectly by throwing it on an Exalted Animal Companion.

I will add that VoP can be a good deal of fun if the character is looking for that role play concept. And, optimization forums notwithstanding, some players don't mind taking the op-nerf on the chin in exchange for a mechanic that gives them tangible benefits for their holy devotion. People on threads like this sometimes overemphasize the degree to which VoP is bad. It's certainly not good, but I think of it like a flaw; you character is strictly worse in return for some kind of benefit. In this case, not a great benefit, but an archetypal role play concept backed with a few goodies.

In fact, I think I'm going to turn all of the vows into flaws. Exalted flaws.

Wait...that's actually a good idea.

[eggynack]

The thing is, wheter it is used on druids or animal companion, VoP is still a straight downgrade from using items. It's just that it hurts druids and animal companions less than it does everyone else.

I completely disagree on the animal companion count. Sticking items on your animal companion, when you could be otherwise spending that cash on a belt of battle, or ring of the beast, or piles of metamagic rods, just isn't so great that it's worth it in comparison to just not doing that and getting a pile of bonuses on the fellow. VoP isn't a perfect replication of wealth, but it's pretty damn close on a creature that is mostly just hitting stuff on occasion, and would mostly be getting static boosts anyway. Really, the only downside to tossing VoP on a companion is that it costs one of your own feats, because druid feats are ridiculously good on occasion.


VoP is never good, it simply varies from "might as well burn your character sheet" to "amusingly bad" based on who or what takes it.
I also disagree with this as applies to druids. VoP is a downgrade on druids, but it's not such a big one that it can be considered amusingly bad. Druids lose little of their functioning, as they can do just about anything in the game without touching cash, and they gain a net increase in feats that are actually useful. Items are better, because you can do really good stuff with druid items (part of why VoP is good on an animal companion), but not so much better that VoP isn't viable.

[Rubik]

I will add that VoP can be a good deal of fun if the character is looking for that role play concept. And, optimization forums notwithstanding, some players don't mind taking the op-nerf on the chin in exchange for a mechanic that gives them tangible benefits for their holy devotion. People on threads like this sometimes overemphasize the degree to which VoP is bad. It's certainly not good, but I think of it like a flaw; you character is strictly worse in return for some kind of benefit. In this case, not a great benefit, but an archetypal role play concept backed with a few goodies.

In fact, I think I'm going to turn all of the vows into flaws. Exalted flaws.

Wait...that's actually a good idea.The vows strangle your character and his actions. The fact that VoP characters can't even open doors or enter buildings should be indicative of that.

[Talya]

The thing is, wheter it is used on druids or animal companion, VoP is still a straight downgrade from using items.

Not really. Oh, if you could spend all your wealth on your animal companion, it'd would end up comparable or better than VOP would give them, sure. But you can't. VOP is much better on an animal companion than items would give based on half of WBL at any given moment -- and the Druid themselve is then also at only half of WBL, which weakens them, too. What VOP on an animal companion allows a druid to do is use all their wealth for themselves, without having to worry about kitting out a companion.


The vows strangle your character and his actions. The fact that VoP characters can't even open doors or enter buildings should be indicative of that.

That's a rather overzealous reading of the text.

"You must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions..."

Doors and buildings are not really material possessions, and going through them is not owning them, nor are they capable of being "used" the way gear is.

[HammeredWharf]

Not really. Oh, if you could spend all your wealth on your animal companion, it'd would end up comparable or better than VOP would give them, sure. But you can't. VOP is much better on an animal companion than items would give based on half of WBL at any given moment -- and the Druid themselve is then also at only half of WBL, which weakens them, too. What VOP on an animal companion allows a druid to do is use all their wealth for themselves, without having to worry about kitting out a companion.

The thing is, VoP requires two feats from your companion and possibly one from you (unless you're a Lion of Talisid). Some druid builds have feats to spare and Exalted Animal Companion isn't a bad feat by itself, but your companion can probably only choose two or three feats. You could expand its tactical options dramatically by picking good ones, so getting some AC and bonuses to saves is rather underwhelming.

[eggynack]

The thing is, VoP requires two feats from your companion and possibly one from you (unless you're a Lion of Talisid). Some druid builds have feats to spare and Exalted Animal Companion isn't a bad feat by itself, but your companion can probably only choose two or three feats. You could expand its tactical options dramatically by picking good ones, so getting some AC and bonuses to saves is rather underwhelming.
The feat from you is a big loss, and favored of the companions means that you're losing it even with lion of talisid. However, your animal companion doesn't have access to feats that are nearly as good, and the bonuses provided by VoP are much better than any two of them.

[Alikat]

VoP is also good in campaigns where the DM gives you next to no wealth. I'm currently in a game at lvl 6 where all I've been able to get my hands on is a +1 weapon and a lesser extend rod, rest of my kit is lvl 1 starter gear. Rest of the party is in a similar boat. I'd kill for the bonuses granted by VoP in that game.

[HammeredWharf]

The feat from you is a big loss, and favored of the companions means that you're losing it even with lion of talisid.

Well, not if you were going to take LoT anyway.


However, your animal companion doesn't have access to feats that are nearly as good, and the bonuses provided by VoP are much better than any two of them.

Mindsight, Travel Devotion, Tunnel Fighting, Rapidstrike, Martial Stance, Mage Slayer, Deepspawn and a several other feats grant benefits that stack with spells/equipment and aren't easily duplicated. Early on your animal will only have the HD for a few feats, so you have to make them count instead of spending them on AC and Greater Magic Fang. Later on you've got so much gold the poverty part of VoP starts to really hurt.

[Telonius]

There are a few builds in the current Junkyard Wars that are making use of it (Book of Exalted Deeds plus Undead, minus Completes series). :smallbiggrin:

[eggynack]

Well, not if you were going to take LoT anyway.
Eh, I guess. Lion of talisid, minus exalted companion, is pretty much at parity with druid though, and the prerequisite feat balances out with the exalted companion. It's all just completely value neutral, exalted companion included.



Mindsight, Travel Devotion, Tunnel Fighting, Rapidstrike, Martial Stance, Mage Slayer, Deepspawn and a several other feats grant benefits that stack with spells/equipment and aren't easily duplicated. Early on your animal will only have the HD for a few feats, so you have to make them count instead of spending them on AC and Greater Magic Fang. Later on you've got so much gold the poverty part of VoP starts to really hurt.
Those aren't all that great. I don't really know how an animal companion takes mindsight, rapidstrike, or deepspawn, tunnel fighting doesn't do much, and travel devotion is a bit limited by the lack of turning, as well as your limited control over your animal companion's actions when they're unintelligent. Martial stance and mage slayer are pretty decent though. Really, you can do some decent things, but if you're not actually losing wealth from the deal, VoP is an excellent feat, providing bonuses out of line with what anything else can give you. I think you're underselling the sheer quantity of stuff that feat gets you, with a bunch of feats that are occasionally useful, even on an animal companion, and numerical support that's actually in line with wealth by level, if horribly mismanaged wealth by level.

As for later on kitting out your companion, I can't really imagine a point where just buying more stuff for me wouldn't be fine. I mean, there's always room for a wild shape amulet, or rods of metamagic, or a belt of battle, or golden desert honey, or any number of other things, really. By the time you run out of really good stuff to do with your cash, and I'm honestly not even sure that that's a thing that can happen, you're probably already breaking the game with 9th's, and I couldn't give less of a crap about hyper-efficient management of wealth by that point. There are just so many great money sinks in this game too, like scrolls, wands, and pearls of power, so it might actually just be impossible to run a serious cash surplus.

[Tokiko Mima]

You're not depriving it of treasure. It wouldn't be getting any treasure to begin with. Any wealth you invest in your animal companion is YOUR wealth, not the companion's.

See my second argument. If you are of the opinion that your AC cannot 'own' anything you give it, then VoP is a non-issue as a restriction for AC's. You may then invest your AC with any amount of magic items since it doesn't 'own' them and you are only using it on the AC's behalf, like the given example of a potion of cure light wounds.


PC: "Hey there, my pointy-headed buddy! Do you want some barding?"
Unicorn: "Thanks. I've vowed not to own any material possessions myself, but I do know of a local charity where I can donate that barding. They really need it!"
PC: "Oh, ok. I know they will appreciate your gift, and that self-sacrifice is the essence of your vow."
Unicorn: "I'm glad you understand. After all, the entire point of my poverty is not suffering for my own spiritual benefit or your material benefit, but to enrich the less fortunate."

Fixed for you! :smallsmile:

[georgie_leech]

Mindsight, Travel Devotion, Tunnel Fighting, Rapidstrike, Martial Stance, Mage Slayer, Deepspawn and a several other feats grant benefits that stack with spells/equipment and aren't easily duplicated. Early on your animal will only have the HD for a few feats, so you have to make them count instead of spending them on AC and Greater Magic Fang. Later on you've got so much gold the poverty part of VoP starts to really hurt.

If nothing else, Touch of Golden Ice is a fairly nasty augmentation to give to an already Exalted creature. And as I recall the sheer numerical benefits of VoP actually out-pace WBL, even if they aren't optimally distributed; the issue is that they lack significant capabilities like flight or critical Immunities, which is somewhat mitigated by having a handy Druid to cover any of that. Yes, there are other options, and I wouldn't automatically include it on everything, but I think it's a mistake to say that a VoP EAC is necessarily weaker than half WBL, especially when the resources you would have spent equipping or buffing the Animal Companion can be spent making the Druid even more dangerous.

EDIT: Bah, ninja'd hard by Eggy, and in greater detail too. Blasted connection issues.

[Amphetryon]

VoP is really good on an animal companion, but even then it's not OP. The main reason for that being that it's very defensive, while your companion is quite expendable and often very tough even without VoP.

Seems to me it's better on a Ranger's AC, which isn't generally anywhere near as tough.

[eggynack]

Seems to me it's better on a Ranger's AC, which isn't generally anywhere near as tough.
I don't see why it would be. VoP's benefits are linked to HD, and the ranger AC's HD is going to be significantly lower. It doesn't help that the base creature just can't make use of the face beatery provided by vow of poverty as well.

[Amphetryon]

I don't see why it would be. VoP's benefits are linked to HD, and the ranger AC's HD is going to be significantly lower. It doesn't help that the base creature just can't make use of the face beatery provided by vow of poverty as well.

Because the VoP benefits are almost exclusively defensive in nature, they would (theoretically) make a Ranger's AC less squishy than would otherwise be the case; this is also potentially more useful from a Ranger's equipment standpoint, as Rangers typically use relatively expensive fighting styles in comparison to a Druid, so the cost of keeping the AC in good defensive standing would be of benefit, relatively.

From an offensive POV, a Ranger's AC is rarely an effective offensive force in any event due to the HD issue (and throwing money at the problem only generally works for a Ranger if you're using the AC as your primary weapon), making it best suited for scouting or acting as a flank-buddy. Both of those roles benefit from VoP's defensive perks, with a VoP scouting AC having the additional theoretical benefit of depriving any enemies who DO take out your AC before you and your party can provide support of any loot.

[Cruiser1]

VoP clerics can't use holy symbols.
Not a problem! :smallbiggrin: All Clerics can cast the cantrip Summon Holy Symbol (CC). You now have a spell created holy symbol for a few rounds (which can't be sold since it's just a buff, so isn't using wealth). Just recast Summon Holy Symbol when needed, or Persist it at higher levels.

[Rubik]

Not a problem! :smallbiggrin: All Clerics can cast the cantrip Summon Holy Symbol (CC). You now have a spell created holy symbol for a few rounds (which can't be sold since it's just a buff, so isn't using wealth). Just recast Summon Holy Symbol when needed, or Persist it at higher levels.And you basically have to waste an orison slot every time you want to cast another spell, since almost all of them require a divine focus.

And that's on top of wasting two other feats and all of your WBL, and being unable to stand on worked flooring or use a spoon to eat with.

[eggynack]

Because the VoP benefits are almost exclusively defensive in nature, they would (theoretically) make a Ranger's AC less squishy than would otherwise be the case; this is also potentially more useful from a Ranger's equipment standpoint, as Rangers typically use relatively expensive fighting styles in comparison to a Druid, so the cost of keeping the AC in good defensive standing would be of benefit, relatively.

From an offensive POV, a Ranger's AC is rarely an effective offensive force in any event due to the HD issue (and throwing money at the problem only generally works for a Ranger if you're using the AC as your primary weapon), making it best suited for scouting or acting as a flank-buddy. Both of those roles benefit from VoP's defensive perks, with a VoP scouting AC having the additional theoretical benefit of depriving any enemies who DO take out your AC before you and your party can provide support of any loot.
I think there's some logic there, but it still feels like this is slotting ranger animal companion into an awkward slot that it's not particularly suited for. VoP isn't going to stop the fellow from being scrawny, after all. Overall, I think that if there's one advantage for this over the druid version, it's that rangers don't have feats that are as good, so the cost is much lower.

[Phelix-Mu]

Any DM that doesn't let an Exalted cleric of a good god have a rudimentary clay or wooden holy symbol is not abiding by the spirit of BoED. They are tools to help characters that want to be super good be super good. Not straightjackets meant to onerous; the whole book requires strong player-DM communication and understanding. That would be the Book of Perfect Order, whose rules must be followed to the letter, and whose RAW even Asmodeus can appreciate (and envy).

[Alefiend]

if we can put this on an animal companion, how about a familiar?

Turns out you can't put it on either one. Or, to be more exact, once you Awaken your animal companion/familiar/whatever, it ceases to be what it was.


An awakened animal can’t serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount.

Of course, this will not stop the shenanigans. :rolleyes:

[Talya]

the VOP benefits are a lot more than defensive. You're getting +8 to strength (a 640,000gp bonus, btw), +5 enhancement to all natural attacks, & feats like Touch of Golden Ice & Sanctify Natural Attack. Yes, most of them are defensive, but you're also turning them into a melee powerhouse.

[HammeredWharf]

Those aren't all that great. I don't really know how an animal companion takes mindsight, rapidstrike, or deepspawn, tunnel fighting doesn't do much, and travel devotion is a bit limited by the lack of turning, as well as your limited control over your animal companion's actions when they're unintelligent. Martial stance and mage slayer are pretty decent though. Really, you can do some decent things, but if you're not actually losing wealth from the deal, VoP is an excellent feat, providing bonuses out of line with what anything else can give you. I think you're underselling the sheer quantity of stuff that feat gets you, with a bunch of feats that are occasionally useful, even on an animal companion, and numerical support that's actually in line with wealth by level, if horribly mismanaged wealth by level.

Mindsight: can be taken by an asperi.
Rapidstrike: I don't see which requirements would pose a problem. Exalted companions are magical beasts. Of course, the BAB requirement means it's a late-game option.
Deepspawn: oops, can't take that one.
Travel Devotion: exalted companions are intelligent and taking it twice should solve the uses issue.


As for later on kitting out your companion, I can't really imagine a point where just buying more stuff for me wouldn't be fine. I mean, there's always room for a wild shape amulet, or rods of metamagic, or a belt of battle, or golden desert honey, or any number of other things, really. By the time you run out of really good stuff to do with your cash, and I'm honestly not even sure that that's a thing that can happen, you're probably already breaking the game with 9th's, and I couldn't give less of a crap about hyper-efficient management of wealth by that point. There are just so many great money sinks in this game too, like scrolls, wands, and pearls of power, so it might actually just be impossible to run a serious cash surplus.

Sure, money is always useful. However, spending a few thousand gold to improve your companion is quite affordable and can be very useful. For example, you can buy it an initiator item and save a feat for Martial Stance. Let's not forget the other negative side of VoP: many of its benefits don't stack with your buffs. The AC bonus doesn't stack with Luminous Armor, the save bonus doesn't stack with Greater / Superior Resistance / Animal Growth, the NA bonus doesn't stack with any other enhancement NA bonuses, etc. If you're actually using your AC in combat, you'll want to buff it with basic 1h/CL or 24h buffs, at which point many of its VoP features might as well not exist.

[eggynack]

Mindsight: can be taken by an asperi.
Rapidstrike: I don't see which requirements would pose a problem. Exalted companions are magical beasts. Of course, the BAB requirement means it's a late-game option.
Deepspawn: oops, can't take that one.
Travel Devotion: exalted companions are intelligent and taking it twice should solve the uses issue.
Wait, so I'm taking exalted companion on my druid, and then not taking VoP on the companion? That just seems silly. I mean, sure, if I'm running VoP on the druid... except then I have even more cause to also take it on the companion. So no, not really doing that under any circumstances. It's not the worst feat in existence, but it's just not as good as other druid feats unless you do this. It even has a bit of trouble competing with the VoP thing, given how crazy druid feats are.


Sure, money is always useful. However, spending a few thousand gold to improve your companion is quite affordable and can be very useful. For example, you can buy it an initiator item and save a feat for Martial Stance. Let's not forget the other negative side of VoP: many of its benefits don't stack with your buffs. The AC bonus doesn't stack with Luminous Armor, the save bonus doesn't stack with Greater / Superior Resistance / Animal Growth, the NA bonus doesn't stack with any other enhancement NA bonuses, etc. If you're actually using your AC in combat, you'll want to buff it with basic 1h/CL or 24h buffs, at which point many of its VoP features might as well not exist.
Sure, spending a few thousand gold to improve your companion is always useful, but I think the bonuses from VoP are much more powerful than that few thousand GP of items. I can't imagine that level of bonus providing not being worth that little a quantity of stuff. As for not stacking of buffs, I don't see why I should necessarily care. Unless I'm taking companion spellbond, which I'm definitely not always doing, then these are spells which I no longer have to spend on my companion. I guess we could look at those bonuses as something like a bunch of pearls of power, and they come out looking pretty reasonable in that context. This is really less of a downside, and more of a less upside. Not the best, but these bonuses still very much exist.

[HammeredWharf]

Wait, so I'm taking exalted companion on my druid, and then not taking VoP on the companion? That just seems silly. I mean, sure, if I'm running VoP on the druid... except then I have even more cause to also take it on the companion. So no, not really doing that under any circumstances. It's not the worst feat in existence, but it's just not as good as other druid feats unless you do this. It even has a bit of trouble competing with the VoP thing, given how crazy druid feats are.

Well, you can take EAC to get an Asperi with Mindsight. It's not quite as good as the 100 ft Mindsight wizards get, but it's still good. It's also possible to get EAC for free from Lion of Talisid, which I keep bringing up because it's one of the few druid PRCs that aren't awful. If I took EAC on a druid - which I wouldn't normally do, VoP or not - I would not take it to get VoP. I'd take it to get something a bit more interesting.


Sure, spending a few thousand gold to improve your companion is always useful, but I think the bonuses from VoP are much more powerful than that few thousand GP of items. I can't imagine that level of bonus providing not being worth that little a quantity of stuff. As for not stacking of buffs, I don't see why I should necessarily care. Unless I'm taking companion spellbond, which I'm definitely not always doing, then these are spells which I no longer have to spend on my companion. I guess we could look at those bonuses as something like a bunch of pearls of power, and they come out looking pretty reasonable in that context. This is really less of a downside, and more of a less upside. Not the best, but these bonuses still very much exist.

The buffs are better, though. Superior Resistance is a +6, while the most you'd get from VoP is +3. I can see taking VoP if you're not planning to use your AC much, but "I'm not using it anyway" is a pretty weak reason.

[eggynack]

Well, you can take EAC to get an Asperi with Mindsight. It's not quite as good as the 100 ft Mindsight wizards get, but it's still good. It's also possible to get EAC for free from Lion of Talisid, which I keep bringing up because it's one of the few druid PRCs that aren't awful. If I took EAC on a druid - which I wouldn't normally do, VoP or not - I would not take it to get VoP. I'd take it to get something a bit more interesting.
The issues with lion of talisid for this are still very much present, as lion of talisid is pretty much still only good with vow of poverty. It's just not a particularly good prestige class, running at something like parity with straight druid, and only with this being used.


The buffs are better, though. Superior Resistance is a +6, while the most you'd get from VoP is +3. I can see taking VoP if you're not planning to use your AC much, but "I'm not using it anyway" is a pretty weak reason.
They are sometimes better, but you're better off with the free +3 than the expensive +6. Honestly, the save thing seems like a pretty low priority anyway. If the enemy is targeting the druid's animal friend instead of the druid himself, then mission frigging accomplished. As for this only being reasonable when you're not using the animal companion anyway, that's not really the point. The idea is that you can still very much use the animal companion, except they're significantly lower maintenance, because you get the bonuses you would otherwise be getting through spells and items for free.

Overall, I think you're severely underestimating the sheer scope of bonuses here. The benefits being offered, even without the feats, actually cost about as much as wealth by level grants. And then you add bonus feats on top of that, which are decent, and you might as well be doubling wealth by level for a feat. That's some pretty awesome stuff right there.

[lord_khaine]

Im kinda being surprised at how many people get away with picking feats for their animal companion though.

Its a seperate and independent intelligent being, a PC picking feats for it feels to me a bit like them choosing feats for a random npc they happens to meet.

[eggynack]

Im kinda being surprised at how many people get away with picking feats for their animal companion though.

Its a seperate and independent intelligent being, a PC picking feats for it feels to me a bit like them choosing feats for a random npc they happens to meet.
It's not so much a random NPC as it is a partner who holds you in the highest esteem feasibly possible, and who would go into battle to die for you with little to no hesitation. I also don't see why a celestial creature, one of the more good focused creatures out there, would be at all against taking something like vow of poverty, particularly when it's so beneficial. This isn't necessarily, "Fwah hah hah, as my class feature, you are duty bound to act in accordance with my wishes," but I don't see why a good old fashioned, "Hey, how's about you take this awesome feat next level," wouldn't work. Worst case scenario, you can probably swap out animal companions until you find one that'll play along. It's not like they're all going to be averse to doing this.

[Dynodragon]

I've have a cleric with vows of peace/poverty/non-violence, I don't have the rulebook in front of me but I'm pretty sure that the holy symbol is a special exemption from the poverty restrictions.

It's true that these vows are a big change from the way d&d is normally focused on killing things and taking their loot but as someone who perfers roleplaying over maximising my dps I've had great fun playing the character and challenging the game and other players to adapt. More than once the end of adventure big boss encounter has turned into a talk fest as everyone fails their saves and peace reigns.

[Karnith]

I've have a cleric with vows of peace/poverty/non-violence, I don't have the rulebook in front of me but I'm pretty sure that the holy symbol is a special exemption from the poverty restrictions.
Holy symbols are not exempt from VoP's restrictions. Per the Book of Exalted Deeds:

[Y]ou must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions: You may carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons, usually just a quarterstaff that serves as a walking stick. You may wear simple clothes (usually just a homespun robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals) with no magical properties. You may carry enough food to sustain you for one day in a simple (nonmagic) sack or bag. You may carry and use a spell component pouch. You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf
Incidentally, both the FAQ (p. 46) and the Save My Game article on VoP (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060616a) concur that holy symbols are not allowed by VoP.

Of course, Summon Holy Symbol aside, it's possible to be a Cleric without a holy symbol, you just have a much narrower range of spells that are available to you.

[TypoNinja]

Holy symbols are not exempt from VoP's restrictions. Per the Book of Exalted Deeds:

Incidentally, both the FAQ (p. 46) and the Save My Game article on VoP (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060616a) concur that holy symbols are not allowed by VoP.

Of course, Summon Holy Symbol aside, it's possible to be a Cleric without a holy symbol, you just have a much narrower range of spells that are available to you.

A VoP cleric with a craft skill might get away with making his own wooden symbol and calling it a part of the simple gear hes allowed. The word usually in the entry gives you a bit a wiggle room.


Though you are still SOL when the high level magic starts asking for a holy symbol with certain GP values, even with summon holy symbol, since the spell specifies its both wooden, and worth a negligible amount.

[Rubik]

A VoP cleric with a craft skill might get away with making his own wooden symbol and calling it a part of the simple gear hes allowed. The word usually in the entry gives you a bit a wiggle room.Only with houserules that explicitly override the (also explicit) wording of VoP.

[HammeredWharf]

Overall, I think you're severely underestimating the sheer scope of bonuses here. The benefits being offered, even without the feats, actually cost about as much as wealth by level grants. And then you add bonus feats on top of that, which are decent, and you might as well be doubling wealth by level for a feat. That's some pretty awesome stuff right there.

It's possible we just play at different optimization levels. In the games I'm in, I've rarely had to be careful with my animal companions, because monsters usually don't go after them and their defenses are sky-high anyway. Additionally, my ACs tend to hit quite well already, so I don't really need the magic fang equivalents, either. In a relatively safe environment like that something like Travel Devotion beats VoP, because I have no trouble keeping up numerically. The experience may be quite different in a high-OP game where even a druid has trouble keeping up.

[prufock]

Turns out you can't put it on either one. Or, to be more exact, once you Awaken your animal companion/familiar/whatever, it ceases to be what it was.
Did anyone even mention awakening? I believe we were talking about Exalted Companion.

[Talya]

Turns out you can't put it on either one. Or, to be more exact, once you Awaken your animal companion/familiar/whatever, it ceases to be what it was.

Yeah, I know I was swordsaged, but seriously ... who's awakening anything? ALL familiars are "awakened" intelligent creatures. If they start with enough feats, sure they could take VOP, but it won't advance, and is a bad idea. As for Companions, we're talking about exalted companions, which are also all intelligent magical beasts.


VoP is never good, it simply varies from "might as well burn your character sheet" to "amusingly bad" based on who or what takes it.

The combination of taking Vow of Poverty and banning Natural Spell doesn't even cause the druid to flinch from it's lofty position looking down at the weaker classes. And while it is a minor power downgrade, VoP gives a druid several things things can't cheaply get otherwise, and therefore makes certain druid concepts incredibly easy to pull off. There are mechanical reasons why one might take it. (Much like there are mechanical reasons a druid might take a level or two of MoMF, which is a much bigger power downgrade for them.)

[Elderand]

The combination of taking Vow of Poverty and banning Natural Spell doesn't even cause the druid to flinch from it's lofty position looking down at the weaker classes.

So ? That doesn't prove vow of poverty is any good, even for a druid, all it does is show that a druid is utterly broken compared to other classes.

[sideswipe]

i was allowed to have a handmade holy symbol as a vop cleric and i used xp instead of material components.

[Phelix-Mu]

i was allowed to have a handmade holy symbol as a vop cleric and i used xp instead of material components.

That's exactly what I do. The restriction, in my mind, is simply to prevent big bling holy symbols and VoP. And any good god that ignores Holy Hobo Harry just because he whittled his own holy symbol is not a very good good god.

Good god, that was a bunch of good and god!

:smallbiggrin:

[Talya]

Getting around the Holy Symbol oversight is easy. Just carve your holy symbol into the wooden quarterstaff that you are explicitly allowed to carry and you're fine.

[Alefiend]

Did anyone even mention awakening? I believe we were talking about Exalted Companion.

Withdrawn. Reading comprehension fail. :smallredface:

[lord_khaine]

It's not so much a random NPC as it is a partner who holds you in the highest esteem feasibly possible, and who would go into battle to die for you with little to no hesitation. I also don't see why a celestial creature, one of the more good focused creatures out there, would be at all against taking something like vow of poverty, particularly when it's so beneficial. This isn't necessarily, "Fwah hah hah, as my class feature, you are duty bound to act in accordance with my wishes," but I don't see why a good old fashioned, "Hey, how's about you take this awesome feat next level," wouldn't work. Worst case scenario, you can probably swap out animal companions until you find one that'll play along. It's not like they're all going to be averse to doing this.

But it is still an independent entity, and such metagame concept as feats really dont feel like something that players should be able to select for anyone but themselves, though i can of course see how its a decicion that could be influenced though rp.