Non-core only

[A Tad Insane]

So everyone knows how broken core is, what with its wizards, shapechange and the such like, but what would a D&D campaign look like with nothing out of core except the basic weapons and armor? No base classes, no rods of wonder, no time stops, no mithril, basically nothing. What do the people with actual book mastery think would happen?

(note: I'd allow the basic armor and weapons because there are about 3 non-core simple weapons)

[heavyfuel]

So everyone knows how broken core is, what with its wizards, shapechange and the such like, but what would a D&D campaign look like with nothing out of core except the basic weapons and armor? No base classes, no rods of wonder, no time stops, no mithril, basically nothing. What do the people with actual book mastery think would happen?

(note: I'd allow the basic armor and weapons because there are about 3 non-core simple weapons)

Probably not much... There are both Tier 1 and Tier 5 classes outside of the PHB. Some guy might want to play an Archivist while another will play a CW Samurai. Sure, restricting some core spells will nerf spellcasters a bit, but removing things like Power Attack will nerf melee even more, even if ToB is allowed (which it should be)

[Thanatosia]

Almost all skills are core, so any skill based type class would be ruined, and even non-skill focused classes would have almost nothing to spend their skillpoints on.

A lot of non-core options have core abilities as pre-requisites, so a LOT of non-core options would be barred as well.

[Svata]

Almost all skills are core, so any skill based type class would be ruined, and even non-skill focused classes would have almost nothing to spend their skillpoints on.

A lot of non-core options have core abilities as pre-requisites, so a LOT of non-core options would be barred as well.

Also, core has the combat rules, so that's difficult too.

[A.A.King]

There are also a lot of non-broke core spells and most of the non-core casters don't really learn that many non-core spells.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Let's not make ridiculous assumptions here.

A Tad Insane, how does this sound for a list of banned stuff from core:

No classes
No spells
No magic items from the DMG, aside from the rules for +X weapons, armor, and stat-boosting items. (Wands, scrolls, and potions are OK, but only for non-core spells)
No special materials

Leaving us with:

Rules
Skills
Feats (they're prereqs for too many things to ignore entirely)
Equipment

[A Tad Insane]

Let's not make ridiculous assumptions here.

A Tad Insane, how does this sound for a list of banned stuff from core:

No classes
No spells
No magic items from the DMG, aside from the rules for +X weapons, armor, and stat-boosting items. (Wands, scrolls, and potions are OK, but only for non-core spells)
No special materials

Leaving us with:

Rules
Skills
Feats (they're prereqs for too many things to ignore entirely)
Equipment


What this guy said. I had no idea how literal everyone here was, but that's what happens when you suffer from too much RAW

Note: It's not going to be a real game, I was just wondering what people would think would happen. Obviously full casters would still be op and the samurai would suck still, but I think it would be interesting to talk about how Wu jen might actually get played or what the Warblade's Christmas tree would be.

[Pluto!]

Archivist and Erudite still play in the same game as Samurai and Soulborn. Only now, Power Attack is dead. This has been a popular "fix" forever, but I think it does more for shock value than actually fixing anything.

[Jeff the Green]

Yeah, definitely don't ban core spells. Or at least not for everybody. They're almost the entirety of the Beguiler, Warmage, and Dread Necromancer spell lists, and they're the most balanced casting classes out there.

[Callin]

I personally feel like it would be a fun and VERY different game from the norm.

Psionics dont change at all, ToB stays the same as well. Magic gets gutted but Splats have spells that replace most of core anyways, so its not really a big deal. Most fixed casters get gutted to unplayable but then you dont play one of them in this type of game.

[Kantolin]

It will help.

Most of the potent casters outside of core are T2, or are at least noticably weaker than other T1s (Artificer is the standout exception). You have psions, wilders, favored souls, spirit shamans, and a few potent casters if people want to aim that way.

That said, it also makes it easier to keep up - your have tome of battle classes, psychic warriors, duskblades, and a few other T3 martial options. You then also have some weaker castery options (Warlock, Warmage, Shadowcaster).

You still do have bottom of the barrel martial (Soulknife, Samurai), but those aren't necessarily worse than you had it in core with monks.

Spells can remain potent (You'll have to look into shivering touch and celerity), but they definitely weaken a lot. Favored Souls, especially without divine power and righteous might, but still having righteous wrath of the faithful, become less of martial monsters themselves and more of supporting others into being martial monsters. This may interestingly make shadowcasters have a very potent unique point -they're the only method of getting at several core 'spells'. Powers will otherwise jump up a lot overall.

So this mostly lops a big chunk off the top and squeezes things a bit closer to the middle, which will in fact help. You may wish to ban the artificer and psion as well, simply because they'll definitely rule the roost otherwise - the other tier 2s will end up being reduced pretty fiercely without their core spells, so they'll end up a lot more tame than before... but be a little cautious with psions. Wilders and Psychic Warriors will be fine, though.

You... um, may want to, uh, keep around the cure line of spells. That said, vigor and healing spirit and darts of life are options, so meh. Consider keeping specifically 'heal' though (and probably raise dead / true resurrection!)

[Grod_The_Giant]

There's certainly a lot of value to banning core classes, methinks. At a stroke, you're getting rid of most of the strongest, weakest, and most generic classes in the game. Better yet, you'll force players to pick more interesting classes, if they weren't already so inclined.

Anything beyond that is going to require at least some work, either to adapt or to work around. As Jeff the Green and Callin noted, you've made fixed-list casters significantly weaker-- you may want to allow them, and anyone else with core spells on a fixed list, to swap them out for thematically appropriate spells from splats. There are a handful of Core feats-- Power Attack, item creation feats, stuff like that-- that are going to hurt if you don't have 'em. (And that's not even touching pre-reqs). Ditto spells-- certain things get a lot more dangerous without the condition removal spells.

[Knaight]

There's certainly a lot of value to banning core classes, methinks. At a stroke, you're getting rid of most of the strongest, weakest, and most generic classes in the game. Better yet, you'll force players to pick more interesting classes, if they weren't already so inclined.

This seems about right. Plus, this fixes some of the other stuff by default - some of the issues with magic end up fixed, as a lot of the more broken spells simply do not appear on non-core casters, and are effectively vanished. There are still some very powerful classes (the Artificer stands out here, but the Psion and Wu-Jen are no slouches) and some terrible classes (Soulknife, Trunamer, Samurai), but it does end up looking a lot better.

[Jeff the Green]

Anything beyond that is going to require at least some work, either to adapt or to work around. As Jeff the Green and Callin noted, you've made fixed-list casters significantly weaker-- you may want to allow them, and anyone else with core spells on a fixed list, to swap them out for thematically appropriate spells from splats. There are a handful of Core feats-- Power Attack, item creation feats, stuff like that-- that are going to hurt if you don't have 'em. (And that's not even touching pre-reqs). Ditto spells-- certain things get a lot more dangerous without the condition removal spells.

By cutting out all core illusion and enchantment spells, you're massively hurting fixed-list casters, even if they can sub them out. It means Dread Necromancers can't create zombies and Beguilers can neither create basic illusions of things or control someone's mind—and that is what those classes do. Instead, ban core spells from anyone who casts from the big three lists and certain spells (probably the polymorph line and calling spells) from everyone, and you should be fine.

Also, there really aren't any super powerful non-core feats beyond Leadership. Item Crafting, but from an intraparty perspective they're not a significant imbalancer. In fact, since most mundane feats are either in chains or play off synergy, banning core beats increases imbalance.

So in sum, ban the classes, ban a few key spells, and disallow anyone who doesn't cast from their own list from casting core spells.

[Zanos]

Archivist and Erudite still play in the same game as Samurai and Soulborn. Only now, Power Attack is dead. This has been a popular "fix" forever, but I think it does more for shock value than actually fixing anything.
Archivist and (StP)Erudite can't poach core spells though, which drops them in power a bit. Tier 2 still exists and is going strong though, mostly because of Psionics.

Are powers which reference core spells banned? Such as psionic teleport referencing teleport.

[A Tad Insane]

Ok, new rule; If it's core but mentioned in non core, it's good. This is so that things that mimic things in core work and so that characters drawing from a non core spell list that includes core spells can function

For clarification: You know how "knock" appears on the beguiler's list, he can use it, but an archivist still can't cast miracle, because his list is "all divine spells", which doesn't call out miracle

[Jeff the Green]

Ok, new rule; If it's core but mentioned in non core, it's good. This is so that things that mimic things in core work and so that characters drawing from a non core spell list that includes core spells can function

I'm confused about this. Archivist and Wu Jen cast "as a Wizard", so Wizard's in? Spirit Shaman draws its spells from the druid list, so druid's in? What about feats that specify you must be a Ranger, do they mean Ranger is in?

[rg9000]

No normal chromatic and metallic dragons.

[dextercorvia]

Ok, new rule; If it's core but mentioned in non core, it's good. This is so that things that mimic things in core work and so that characters drawing from a non core spell list that includes core spells can function

Doesn't work. Now you are allowing things like elven generalist wizard, and all of the core spells that are referred to in some other book.

[Alex12]

Ok, new rule; If it's core but mentioned in non core, it's good. This is so that things that mimic things in core work and so that characters drawing from a non core spell list that includes core spells can function

I don't think this works. Part of the problem is that Core spells don't tend to be duplicated because they're Core spells. Take Fly, for instance. That's a very important and useful spell, and I don't think anyone will seriously claim that it's broken. Guess what: you just banned it. While other things tend to get duplicated between sourcebooks (Improved Toughness is in something like five different books, for example), Core stuff isn't.

At least eight of the core classes can safely be axed, though barbarians, bards, rangers, and maybe paladins are probably okay. Rogues are neatly replaced by factotums (and to a lesser extent Spellthieves and a few others), fighters and monks are obsoleted by warblades and swordsages, respectively, and there's gobs of primary non-core spellcasters.

[Jeff the Green]

I don't think this works. Part of the problem is that Core spells don't tend to be duplicated because they're Core spells. Take Fly, for instance. That's a very important and useful spell, and I don't think anyone will seriously claim that it's broken. Guess what: you just banned it. While other things tend to get duplicated between sourcebooks (Improved Toughness is in something like five different books, for example), Core stuff isn't.

Fly is a bad example. It has at least one spell that is nearly strictly better (celestial aspect) and at least a couple that imperfectly replicate it. A better example would be silent image.

[Curmudgeon]

I strongly suggest dumping the feats, too. There are too many core feats that are at the roots of problems. Taking out the basic metamagic and item creation feats means you nerf the way-too-powerful Incantatrix and Artificer. Taking out Power Attack tones down most of the charger damage multiplication shenanigans. There are alternative ways to qualify where Dodge and Weapon Focus are the requirements.

[Jeff the Green]

I strongly suggest dumping the feats, too. There are too many core feats that are at the roots of problems. Taking out the basic metamagic and item creation feats means you nerf the way-too-powerful Incantatrix and Artificer. Taking out Power Attack tones down most of the charger damage multiplication shenanigans. There are alternative ways to qualify where Dodge and Weapon Focus are the requirements.

...or you could ban Incantatrix, Artificer, and Shock Trooper. Those are the problem. Most metamagic is priced appropriately if you don't get reducers, item creation isn't a big deal without cost reduction and the ability to pull from every list in existence, and Power Attack doesn't result in insane damage when you actually have to worry about keeping your to-hit up.