Wizards: Prefer randomized spells or preparing daily?

[Hobbo Jim]

Hello world,
So my DM has attempted to simplify things by avoiding the "preparing deal", and so has removed it. To make sure wizards and sorcerers are still different however, he has wizards randomize their spells via rolling various dice and figuring out what spell it corresponds to. Thus, casters never need prepare spells ahead of time, but have a chance of having very useless or situational spells (it should be noted that we have a giant list of just about every spell ever created, including dragon magazine and random books like renegade mage's tome). Do you guys think this is a power boost? Obviously some of it is left to chance... Secondly, would you guys do it while not know what spells you would get?


EDIT:I apologize for any confusion that has gone on. To clarify: Every time you level up you receive a certain number of spells known, which are randomized and then put into your spellbook. Afterwords, any spell that your spellbook contains can be spontaneously cast, effectively as a sorcerer. Realistically, the difference between the two is that wizards get more spells and can learn spells, however their spells known are randomized at level up, while sorcerers may choose. Regardless, as I said above it would seem that this is still a far inferior option than normal wizards.

[eggynack]

How could this possibly be a power boost? There's nothing but downside, unless you can get high level spells in low level slots. It even seems more annoying to work out, as once you have a good wizard list prepped up, you don't really need to change it much, while this random version requires that you roll a bunch of dice every in-game day.

[Zanos]

I would not play a wizard with that rule unless the campaign was of a very comical tone. That sounds terrible. (And is definitely not a power increase.)

[ryu]

The class in the game that gets more out of planning and applying knowledge of how their spells work to create a balanced and powerful loadout that's still versatile just doesn't gel with this. It is anathema to why you play wizard to begin with.

[aleucard]

This sounds like it would be an unmitigated, absolute cluster-f#@$. I expect this house rule to last a single session, maybe 2. Prepping your spells for the day is an irritating thing, yeah, but with a little thought that can be done outside the game. Just add a couple if/then bits to your decision process.

[Gabrosin]

This is obviously an incredible power boost... for other classes, relative to wizards.

[AuraTwilight]

This is a terrible, terrible idea.

....but I'd still play it because I love Wild Magic-esque shenanigans.

[Rubik]

Why doesn't he just ban the wizard if he's going to screw over the players of them so badly?

[Zaq]

C'mon guys, it's just making the Wizard more like the Crusader, and we know how OP the Crusader is! This is obviously a power boost!

[BWR]

It would be fun in a Toon- or Pararnoia-esque game. Terrible, terrible terrible idea for anything resembling traditional D&D.

[Dorian Gray]

The problem is that the OP is saying that not preparing spells is an advantage- e.g. that having to prepare spells is bad. But preparing spells is awesome. Therefore, random spells are teh suxx0rs. QED.

[KorbeltheReader]

You lost me at simplifying the game by removing "the preparing deal." There are many complicated things about D&D and about wizards, but the mechanic of preparing spells is not one of those things. This is a solution without a problem, and like most solutions without problems, it does a lot of pointless collateral damage.

[Firechanter]

Let me just say that while prepping spells may bog down gameplay in the beginning (i.e. when the player is still new to Vancian Magic), this will soon subside when the player knows which spells and combos work well for the party. You often end up prepping just the same handful of spells in multiple slots day after day. Unless, of course, something different comes up - and then the beauty of the Wizard is that you can plan accordingly.

Anyway, if your group really thinks this is _such_ a bog-down, for goodness' sake just ban Prepared Casters altogether and only use Spontaneous Casters with their limited Spells Known list. But this randomizing idea would be only good for slapstick and nothing else.

[Zale]

This sort of stomps on the whole fluff of wizards. The careful and knowledgeable caster who, through arcane understanding and willpower, has mastered the ability to bend reality in specific ways.

Nothing there really says, "Lolrandomspells".

Now, if this was a Wild Mage class of some sort, I'd have no issue with it at all. Having a spontaneous caster whose spells known shift everyday could actually be quite fun, provided there's a way to preserve certain spells. (Having no stability at all could stop being fun quite quickly.)

[Jeff the Green]

Why would anyone even consider using this. There's so much dross out there that you're unlikely to get many spells you can even use, let alone be effective.

[Killer Angel]

Do you guys think this is a power boost?

Now, I'm curious.
Why do you think that someone could think to this, even remotely, as a "power boost"?

[Hobbo Jim]

I have not played very many DnD campaigns and fewer wizards, and he is one of the only DMs I know: but anyways, I thought it might be a power boost because spontaneous casting, if you can manage to find the spells you want elsewhere, however by the reactions of this forum I think I can determine it isn't. Anyways, thanks for the insight everyone.

[eggynack]

I have not played very many DnD campaigns and fewer wizards, and he is one of the only DMs I know: but anyways, I thought it might be a power boost because spontaneous casting, if you can manage to find the spells you want elsewhere, however by the reactions of this forum I think I can determine it isn't. Anyways, thanks for the insight everyone.
I'm not sure what you mean by spontaneous casting. It looks like the spells you get randomly could just as easily come to you prepared, and you gain no advantage by having them applied in this fashion. I think the issue is less that the thing you're gaining here is somehow worse on the exchange, but rather that this version is just strictly worse in every possible way.

[Thanatosia]

Oh, I think I get how he thinks it's a power boost. You dont' randomly roll spells into your spell slots, you randomly roll each day (is it per day? Or are you stuck with the randomly rolled spells forever?) for what spells you know in the manner that a Sorceror has spells known, and then spontaneously cast them. So if you roll fireball for the day, you can cast fireball with all your 3rd level spell slots if you wanted, or mix and match it at the moment of spellcasting with whatever other third level spells you rolled for the day's random assortment. So Wizards are kind of Chaos-Sorcerors in his campaign.

Is that how it works OP? If so, It's still far inferior to normal wizard mechanics IMO, but not the overt no-gain as just having your spell slots filled with random spells would have been. I'd much rather just play a Sorceror then one of these random-spontaneious wizards as well.

[eggynack]

Oh, I think I get how he thinks it's a power boost. You dont' randomly roll spells into your spell slots, you randomly roll each day for what spells you know in the manner that a Sorceror has spells known. So if you roll fireball for the day, you can cast fireball with all your 3rd level spell slots if you wanted, or mix and match it at the moment of spellcasting with whatever other third level spells you rolled for the day's random assortment. So Wizards are kind of Chaos-Sorcerors in his campaign.

Is that how it works OP? If so, It's still far inferior to normal wizard mechanics IMO, but not the overt no-gain as just having your spell slots filled with random spells would have been.
Yeah, that would shift it from strictly worse to regular worse, though it only really has that status if you get more "spells known" than a sorcerer. Otherwise, you kinda tend towards a crappy sorcerer.

[Jeff the Green]

Even so, why would anyone consider it? I mean, there's an enormous number of useless or extremely situation spells out there. So roll up contingency but already have it running? permanency but no spells that can be made permanent? Grave strike but no sneak attack? Sorry, you're out of luck. There is almost no reason to take this even if you want to play a Wild Mage that's more random than the PrC.

Now, something similar could work. Say, you prepare spells (or know them to cast spontaneously), but one slot is filled randomly from a limited selection of spells that aren't always or frequently useless (but otherwise run the gamut of power). Maybe it's rolled once in the morning, maybe every hour, maybe each time you cast it. But you need some way to control at least some of the capabilities your character has.

[Hobbo Jim]

I apologize for any confusion that has gone on. To clarify: Every time you level up you receive a certain number of spells known, which are randomized and then put into your spellbook. Afterwords, any spell that your spellbook contains can be spontaneously cast, effectively as a sorcerer. Realistically, the difference between the two is that wizards get more spells and can learn spells, however their spells known are randomized at level up, while sorcerers may choose. Regardless, as I said above it would seem that this is still a far inferior option than normal wizards.

[ryu]

I apologize for any confusion that has gone on. To clarify: Every time you level up you receive a certain number of spells known, which are randomized and then put into your spellbook. Afterwords, any spell that your spellbook contains can be spontaneously cast, effectively as a sorcerer. Realistically, the difference between the two is that wizards get more spells and can learn spells, however their spells known are randomized at level up, while sorcerers may choose. Regardless, as I said above it would seem that this is still a far inferior option than normal wizards.

Depends. How much spell learning are you willing to do? This board has proven repeatedly that it isn't hard to learn all the spells in the game. Might make it kinda annoying at low levels though.

[Faily]

You lost me at simplifying the game by removing "the preparing deal." There are many complicated things about D&D and about wizards, but the mechanic of preparing spells is not one of those things. This is a solution without a problem, and like most solutions without problems, it does a lot of pointless collateral damage.

This +1.

If a GM I played under had decreed that this would be his houserule (no argument allowed), I would thank for the thought and depart from the table. I would not play in a campaign that took away the fluff of "intelligent person who prepares ahead of time" which I enjoy about wizards. I enjoy my wizards as planners, who carefully choose spells when they level up (which I often plan out in advance) and knowing that the party is to confront a bunch of incorporeal undeads will prepare Ghost Touch Armor, Force-spells, and prepare some other spells with the correct meta-magic (like Extended Mage Armor).

You also forget that those who prepare spells, like Wizard, Cleric and Druid, prepare their spells with any Metamagic already applied to it so they can cast it normally. Spontaneous casters must spend a FULL ROUND to apply Metamagic to their spells, which costs action-economy in battle.
Spontaneous is weaker than prepared.

[Jeff the Green]

I apologize for any confusion that has gone on. To clarify: Every time you level up you receive a certain number of spells known, which are randomized and then put into your spellbook. Afterwords, any spell that your spellbook contains can be spontaneously cast, effectively as a sorcerer. Realistically, the difference between the two is that wizards get more spells and can learn spells, however their spells known are randomized at level up, while sorcerers may choose. Regardless, as I said above it would seem that this is still a far inferior option than normal wizards.

Ah, okay, so the two (maybe more) you learn are random? That could be okay. It would bite into WBL more and make Elven Generalist and Collegiate Wizard useless, but it wouldn't be a huge detriment. The issue, as ryu says, is that it whips around to hit "broken" from the other direction. Casting spontaneously from one of the worse schools is good on its own; casting spontaneously from conjuration and transmutation too is way overpowered.

[Aquillion]

With your clarification, I'd say that it depends entirely on how hard it is for the wizard to learn new spells. If they're allowed to just buy whatever scroll they want at market prices and put it in their spellbook, this is a significant power boost once the wizard gets enough GP to start buying what they want.

The harder it is for the wizard to buy / find new spells, the worse it becomes, although really you'd need to shut down non-level-up spell-acquisition almost entirely before I'd call it a real drawback.

[ryu]

Ah, okay, so the two (maybe more) you learn are random? That could be okay. It would bite into WBL more and make Elven Generalist and Collegiate Wizard useless, but it wouldn't be a huge detriment. The issue, as ryu says, is that it whips around to hit "broken" from the other direction. Casting spontaneously from one of the worse schools is good on its own; casting spontaneously from conjuration and transmutation too is way overpowered.

I take issue with the implication that divination is one of the worse schools. It's no conjuration or transmutation, but knowledge is literal power in D&D. Divination has most, but not all, of the good knowledge gathering in the game especially before high levels.

[eggynack]

I take issue with the implication that divination is one of the worse schools. It's no conjuration or transmutation, but knowledge is literal power in D&D. Divination has most, but not all, of the good knowledge gathering in the game especially before high levels.
True, though it's still likely one of the worst schools to have access to on a spontaneous basis. You don't get much benefit from casting something like contact other plane, a spell with a 10 minute casting time, spontaneously.

[ryu]

True, though it's still likely one of the worst schools to have access to on a spontaneous basis. You don't get much benefit from casting something like contact other plane, a spell with a 10 minute casting time, spontaneously.

On the contrary, that's actually a spell I take great joy in having spontaneously. Suddenly every slot capable of casting it or better that wasn't used has direct value at the end of the day before we all sleep in the rope trick/mansion/demiplane. Anything I didn't use turns into power in the form of preparedness for future encounters.

[Thrudd]

A better way to mitigate wizard's power would be to go back to AD&D style. The three level 1 spells that you begin play with in your book are randomized; getting one each from a list of roughly offensive, defensive, and utility spells. Spells are never available for sale, or perhaps very rarely a level 1 spell for sale. All scrolls found as loot (or awarded as WBL for higher level characters) should usually contain randomly determined spells, only occasionally hand selected by the DM in case you want them to have a specific spell. At each new level, the wizard gets one spell of his/her choice rather than two. Of course, wizards PC's can share spells from their books as much as they want.

Take an idea from Next, and let the wizard spontaneously cast from those spells prepared for the day. If you have three level 1 spell slots, you prepare three spells and can cast them a total of three times in any combination. You could also designate some utility spells as rituals, which give you the option of casting them without memorization directly from the book with a casting time of ten minutes per spell level, or maybe more. They can still be memorized and cast as normal if desired, but this will allow some niche spells to see more use. As long as the DM keeps track of the passage of time strictly and enforces consequences for standing around in a dangerous place for extended periods of time (and is conservative regarding which spells are allowed as rituals), this should not unbalance things too much.

[eggynack]

On the contrary, that's actually a spell I take great joy in having spontaneously. Suddenly every slot capable of casting it or better that wasn't used has direct value at the end of the day before we all sleep in the rope trick/mansion/demiplane. Anything I didn't use turns into power in the form of preparedness for future encounters.
Sure, there's definitely value there, and that's one of the better uses of the ability. However, I'd much prefer spontaneous access to something with more combat oriented spells, because that's a ton of utility right there. Thus, I would consider even something like spontaneous evocation, with its granted random access to everything from resilient sphere to wind wall, to be a better ability along those lines. I'd probably like something like spontaneous enchantment less, however. Just a lot less stuff that I feel like I'd really want in the moment. I'm not sure where I'd put necromancy, and everything else I'd likely stick higher.

[ryu]

Sure, there's definitely value there, and that's one of the better uses of the ability. However, I'd much prefer spontaneous access to something with more combat oriented spells, because that's a ton of utility right there. Thus, I would consider even something like spontaneous evocation, with its granted random access to everything from resilient sphere to wind wall, to be a better ability along those lines. I'd probably like something like spontaneous enchantment less, however. Just a lot less stuff that I feel like I'd really want in the moment. I'm not sure where I'd put necromancy, and everything else I'd likely stick higher.

I still prefer spontaneous divination on the grounds that most of those things are exactly the sort of thing that's easy to get info on from divination. Not to mention that most everything from evocation is done by things that scale past low levels better from other schools. Friendly fire is much preferred to wind wall because anyone using ranged past low levels stopped caring about wind walls ages ago. It's also something I prepare regularly anyway. Pretty much the only stuff I'd even care about spontaneous from evocation would be wall of force and forcecage. Those also aren't as big to me as even just relevant combat divinations.

No to rank a spontaneous school higher than divination I'd want something from at least the illusion/abjuration tier of schools and it still wouldn't be an easy choice even if I did.

[morkendi]

Played in a game that did things a little different. Sorcerer was same. Wizard still prepared spells but a little different. He chose what spells he wanted and studied them. They stay with him till he studies his book and decided to change them. For example, If it says wizard gets 3 3rd level spells at his lvl, he can memorized 3 spells like fireball, lighting bolt, and haste. Since he gets 3 3rd lvl that day, he can cast any combo of those 3 spells. Like he cast 3 fireballs or 3 haste or two fireballs and one haste. In you need to cast another spell you have in your book, you choose to drop one spell and add another after studying a little. The group you chose stays with you every day unless you change them. You wake up and med the same amount of time a cleric prays. 0 lvl are unlimited but cant be meta magiced or altered.

[Firechanter]

Played in a game that did things a little different. Sorcerer was same. Wizard still prepared spells but a little different. He chose what spells he wanted and studied them. They stay with him till he studies his book and decided to change them. For example, If it says wizard gets 3 3rd level spells at his lvl, he can memorized 3 spells like fireball, lighting bolt, and haste. Since he gets 3 3rd lvl that day, he can cast any combo of those 3 spells. Like he cast 3 fireballs or 3 haste or two fireballs and one haste. In you need to cast another spell you have in your book, you choose to drop one spell and add another after studying a little. The group you chose stays with you every day unless you change them. You wake up and med the same amount of time a cleric prays. 0 lvl are unlimited but cant be meta magiced or altered.

So kinda like the Spirit Shaman method, just with a better spell list. I did something similar for secondary casters (like Ranger), which is of course harmless because it won't break the game. With the Wizard, I'm not so sure. It's probably excellent for newbie players and/or low-op groups, but I shudder imagining what a mid- to high-op player would get out of that.

Also, this Wizard leaves absolutely no room for the Sorcerer, because he gets the one thing that Sorcs are good at (spamming a small number of spells) PLUS all the things Wizards get on top of that: undelayed spell progression, free extra feats, day-to-day versatility, unlimited Spells Known. In the end, the difference is just +1 slot/level between a Sorcerer and a Specialist, and even that shrinks to Zero with Focused Specialist.

Still, I never really liked Sorcs, so I am still considering to give it a shot.

[morkendi]

I forgot, the difference he put on sorcer was meta magic did not change casting time, it just took the higher spell slot for the day. He thought that gave the sorcerer enough difference from the wizard to make it attractive. I also forgot to mention that he made all wizards specialize, so you lost access to 2 schools unless you were diviner wich lost 1. Sorcerer was only caster to have access to all schools. It ended up a very fun game.

[ryu]

I forgot, the difference he put on sorcer was meta magic did not change casting time, it just took the higher spell slot for the day. He thought that gave the sorcerer enough difference from the wizard to make it attractive. I also forgot to mention that he made all wizards specialize, so you lost access to 2 schools unless you were diviner wich lost 1. Sorcerer was only caster to have access to all schools. It ended up a very fun game.

Yeah I'd still pick wizard. Drop enchantment and evocation to lose the least good things possible, and learn ALL of the other spells on the wizard list.

[morkendi]

Yes, i played in this game from 1st to 17th lvl playing a whisper gnome diviner/ shadowcraft mage/ arch mage. I did have the ability to outpace the party a little, but i think it had more to do with classes i choose than it did with the actual memorization mechanic he used. I dont think running things this way would hurt much compared to what a wizard can already do any way.

He tried to balance out fighter by making them have access to
all fighter bonus feats. The feats you gain at lvl are set unless retrained, but the fighter bonus where a line of open feats you could change daily. So you could be a tripper one day, a charger the next, or ranged if you have to another, just not all at one.


Like i said, game concentrated on fun and good story line, i enjoyed this game more than any i ever played

[ryu]

Yes, i played in this game from 1st to 17th lvl playing a whisper gnome diviner/ shadowcraft mage/ arch mage. I did have the ability to outpace the party a little, but i think it had more to do with classes i choose than it did with the actual memorization mechanic he used. I dont think running things this way would hurt much compared to what a wizard can already do any way.

He tried to balance out fighter by making them have access to
all fighter bonus feats. The feats you gain at lvl are set unless retrained, but the fighter bonus where a line of open feats you could change daily. So you could be a tripper one day, a charger the next, or ranged if you have to another, just not all at one.


Like i said, game concentrated on fun and good story line, i enjoyed this game more than any i ever played

Well of course. Wizards are wizards. You have to hit them HARD with the nerf bat if you want to prevent them from being terrifying in competent hands.