Templates

[Bhu]

Are their any templates for making homebrew stuff for 4e?

[Inevitability]

There are the guidelines on defenses, attack rolls, damage and HP, but I can't think of anything else.

[Gavran]

I imagine one could extrapolate (if someone hasn't already) a baseline for things like how strong a level X power should be, though it wouldn't be a very good scale due to WOTC overvaluing [W]s and save ends, while undervaluing multi-hits and until end of encounter effects.

[GPuzzle]

I imagine one could extrapolate (if someone hasn't already) a baseline for things like how strong a level X power should be, though it wouldn't be a very good scale due to WOTC overvaluing [W]s and save ends, while undervaluing multi-hits and until end of encounter effects.

It's basic math! WotC fails at basic math!

[Bhu]

I meant more along the lines of blank class templates, liek this one for 3.5:

CLASS NAME

Picture URL

Quote of Some Kind by a member of the class!

A general description of whatever the class is!

MAKING A CLASS NAME
Quick generalization of what you should focus on when making the class.
Abilities: An in detail section on what ability scores are good for the class, and usually in the order of priority.
Races: Basically how common is the class in the various core races (and other races if you wish to put information in here about them).
Alignment: What alignment they are allowed to be.
Starting Gold: How much gold they start with. Pretty explanatory.
Starting Age: Starting age of the race, just state "As Another Class" as it's better then creating your own chart.

Class Skills
The Class Name's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are....
Skills Per Day at 1st Level : (x + int)x4
Skills Per Day at Each Additional Level : x + int

Hit Dice: dx


BAB Fort Ref Will Abilities
1. +0 +0 +0 +2
2. +1 +0 +0 +3
3. +1 +1 +1 +3
4. +2 +1 +1 +4
5. +2 +1 +1 +4
6. +3 +2 +2 +5
7. +3 +2 +2 +5
8. +4 +2 +2 +6
9. +4 +3 +3 +6
10.+5 +3 +3 +7
11.+5 +3 +3 +7
12.+6 +4 +4 +8
13.+6 +4 +4 +8
14.+7 +4 +4 +9
15.+7 +5 +5 +9
16.+8 +5 +5 +10
17.+8 +5 +5 +10
18.+9 +6 +6 +11
19.+9 +6 +6 +11
20.+10 +6 +6 +12

Weapon Proficiencies: A place to put the different proficiencies.
Put all the different class abilities in here!

PLAYING A CLASS NAME
Brief description on how to play the class you are designing.
Religion: A brief description of the different religions that the class commonly follows. It's best to state your sources if you are using non-core gods.
Other Classes: An in detail section on how your class interacts with other classes. Best to state your sources if your going to refer to non-core classes.
Combat: Here's a section where you will describe common combat methods for your class. Remember to include information on how your class will use his powers in combat.
Advancement: This is a section on different options and paths that the class can go down when they advance in power.

CLASS NAME IN THE WORLD
A quote of somebody else talking about your class!
A brief description of how your class is persevered in the world and how he interacts with the world.
Daily Life: Some general information about the typical day in the life of your class.
Notables: Make up some cool information about notable figures in the history of your class. It's best to give a little information from one of the good alignment and evil alignment (unless it's a good or evil only class).
Organizations: Some information about organizations dedicated to the practice of your class and other organizations which members of your class will be attracted towards.

NPC Reaction
This is an in detail description of how NPC's would perceive your class and the immediate generalization that people would give of your class.

CLASS NAME IN THE GAME
This is a good place to provide a quick note on how your class will effect game play statistically.
Adaptation: This is a place where you put in detail how people can adapt your class into their campaign setting.
Encounters: This is a place to describe what sort of encounters PC's will have with NPC versions of your class.



EPIC CLASS NAME

Hit Die: dx
Skills Points at Each Level : x + int
Class Ability
Class Ability.
Bonus Feats: The Epic Class Name gains a Bonus Feat every x levels higher than 20th

[Sol]

most of it isn't templatable on the same level 3.5 is, really, since, by and large, your attack bonus has nothing to do with your class, and since all (non-E) classes have exactly the same power progression (2 at-wills at level 1, 1 encounter power at 1, 3, 7, replace them at 13, 17, 23, 27, 1 daily at 1, 5, 9, replace them at 15, 19, 25, 29), skill progression (level/2), and starting age/gold.

Additionally, many many 3.5 classes pulled spells from the same universal tables, while every class in 4e has their own unique power list.

The closest you can really get is:

Name of Class
Primary Ability
Secondary Abilities of build forks
list of class skills
list of armor proficiencies
list of weapon proficiencies
list of implement proficiencies
list of class features
massive list of power options
massive list of feats

[Dimers]

Could probably make a rough template for generating new races, but not a class. That's a huge investment.

Like:
Preset statboost+2; optional statboost or other optional statboost +2
Skill+2, skill+2
possibly low-light or darkvision
speed between 5 and 7
unique trait
unique trait
racial encounter power: low-damage minor-action attack OR special move action
possibly +1 to one non-AC defense if none of the statboosts would improve that defense

[GPuzzle]

On powers, something to fix missing would also be plausible, as well as an Immediate Interrupt - in fact, the former's got a pretty great list - the incredbly versatile Heroic Effort and it's Half-Elf brother Knack for Success, the double roll from Elven Accuracy as well as the +1d# from Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes come to mind, but I'm pretty sure there are others. On II, I think there's Goblin Tactics and Infernal Wrath, and I cannot remember much else.

[Tegu8788]

Homebrewing stuff, like monsters and items, even feats are very easy.


But a class, that's just about the hardest thing you can make in 4E. In all honestly, tell us what you want to do with the class, and we will find you an existing way to do it.

I don't want to be presumptuous, but it looks pretty clear that you are very new to 4E. We'll help you homebrew if that's what you want to do, but let's see if we can find something that's already there first.

[Bhu]

I've been asked to convert a 3.5 homebrew class to 4e. I'm not entirely sure it can or should be done but I thought it might be something new to try.

I still have to do the powers list but hows this for a stab at a class sheet:


Class Name
quote by a member of the class

Class Traits
Role:
Power Source:
Key Abilities:

Armor Proficiencies:
Weapon Proficiencies:
Implements: (if the class uses any)
Bonus to Defense:

Hit Points at 1st Level: x + Constitution Score
Hit Points per Level Gained:
Healing Surges per Day: x + Constitution Modifier

Trained Skills: (If there are specific Class Skills every member of the class would have list them first). Choose x more trained skills from the list below at 1st Level.
Class Skills:

Build Options:
Class Features:

(Fluff Paragraph on what the class is)

Creating a Class Name
short fluff paragraph on building a member of this class

Class Build
description of class build
Suggested Feat
Suggested Skills
Suggested At-Will Powers
Suggested Encounter Power
Suggested Daily Power

Class Build 2
description of class build
Suggested Feat
Suggested Skills
Suggested At-Will Powers
Suggested Encounter Power
Suggested Daily Power


Class Class Features
fluff

Class Feature
text

Class Feature
text

Class Feature
text

Class Feature
text

Class Class Overview
Characteristics:
Religion:
Races:

[NecroRebel]

I've been asked to convert a 3.5 homebrew class to 4e. I'm not entirely sure it can or should be done but I thought it might be something new to try.

I still have to do the powers list but hows this for a stab at a class sheet:

Well, if you filled all that in, you'd be about 1% of the way done with homebrewing your class. Then you'd just need to make the 80+ powers, 4+ class-specific paragon paths (including at least 3 powers each), 2+ class-specific epic destinies (including at least 1 power), 1+ multiclass feats, and 4+ class feats, and you'd have a decently-complete class. Do make sure your powers are reasonably varied, though; powers that are just "this earlier power, but better" get boring fast.

This is something that can be done, but I've never seen it done satisfactorily. It's a giant project to homebrew a class in 4e. Oh, and all that I mentioned above? That's roughly equivalent to a character without access to the appropriate Blah Power book. If you want to match those, you'd need about as much work done again.

[Surrealistik]

You can circumvent a lot of the usual work by adopting Essential style design with a limited and fixed set of encounter powers which scales with your level, unique passive class traits, and more powerful at-will or encounter options at the expense of daily powers.

That said though, you'll still probably have to make a lot of unique utility powers at a minimum.

[BlckDv]

I homebrewed one class for a Heroic Only campaign, so powers only to level 10, no PP or ED. I did create Multiclass feats on top of a handful of class feats, as well as a few new implement enchants aimed at the class. I gave it two builds with alternate class powers, and 4-6 powers at each level... even with that narrow a window, it took me probably 30 hours of work over a week and a half (Including research to estimate power balance), but some of that did include bug fixing as it was a .part file for CBLoader.

[georgie_leech]

Well, if you filled all that in, you'd be about 1% of the way done with homebrewing your class. Then you'd just need to make the 80+ powers, 4+ class-specific paragon paths (including at least 3 powers each), 2+ class-specific epic destinies (including at least 1 power), 1+ multiclass feats, and 4+ class feats, and you'd have a decently-complete class. Do make sure your powers are reasonably varied, though; powers that are just "this earlier power, but better" get boring fast.

This is something that can be done, but I've never seen it done satisfactorily. It's a giant project to homebrew a class in 4e. Oh, and all that I mentioned above? That's roughly equivalent to a character without access to the appropriate Blah Power book. If you want to match those, you'd need about as much work done again.

What he said. Which features of this homebrew class are you trying to capture? It's possible that there's a reasonable facsimile in another class somewhere.

[Bhu]

What he said. Which features of this homebrew class are you trying to capture? It's possible that there's a reasonable facsimile in another class somewhere.

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1037.0 It's one I've been working on for a while. It's a rogue who can change into a cat and therefore has access to cat magic. It'll be a monumental pain to switch to 4e.

[GPuzzle]

Hengeyokai Rogue|Sorcerer Hybrid. Rogue Tactics or Spell Source for Hybrid Talent.

Bam, done.

[Sol]

Hengeyokai Rogue|Sorcerer Hybrid. Rogue Tactics or Spell Source for Hybrid Talent.

Bam, done.

it would be relatively bad, but yes, it does meet the flavor requirements.

But then, fluff is all entirely optional, and "cat magic" doesn't really mean anything, so it could just as easily just be a rogue, hengeyokei or were-theme in hybrid form, describing rogue powers in slightly more mystical ways.

[Bhu]

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=156.0

Theres also 60+ PrC's from which to make Paragon Paths and about 9 Epic PrC's to make into Epic Destinies.

In the case of this class, cat magic does actually refer to certain specifics (both class and prc features and a spell list) http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1039.0

[Grey_Wolf_c]

it would be relatively bad, but yes, it does meet the flavor requirements.

But then, fluff is all entirely optional, and "cat magic" doesn't really mean anything, so it could just as easily just be a rogue, hengeyokei or were-theme in hybrid form, describing rogue powers in slightly more mystical ways.

Or a druid, which is my go-to class when I need transformation mechanics that significantly alter gameplay.

Grey Wolf

[Tegu8788]

In 4E, what you do is way more important than how you do it. Refluffing is common, a Cleric played as a Wizard, a Ranger played as a telekinetic throwing rocks, a Fighter played as a bear, the sky is the limit. I'll take a look at your sheet and see what I can translate.

[Bhu]

Not that I wish to discourage you, but doing so would be a monumental task given the amount of material written.

[Tegu8788]

Alrighty then, can you tell us, at the core, what the character does? Not how, but what. Melee damage, casting, sneaky or charger? There is a lot about changing shape, but there aren't stat changes like that in 4E. Now, a stance that gives certain minor bonuses wouldn't be out of the question. A quick skim of the cat magic look like rituals now, so Ritual Caster would a good thing to have. A class bonus to Acrobatics checks would handle a lot of things. A number of the combat relevant spells could become daily or encounter powers, and you've plenty of utility type spells to make.


Honestly, a quick skim, this reads as a Hengeyokai Thief to me, with a Ritual Caster feat. Wanna get complex play a Warlock|Executioner.

[Bhu]

Alrighty then, can you tell us, at the core, what the character does? Not how, but what. Melee damage, casting, sneaky or charger? There is a lot about changing shape, but there aren't stat changes like that in 4E. Now, a stance that gives certain minor bonuses wouldn't be out of the question. A quick skim of the cat magic look like rituals now, so Ritual Caster would a good thing to have. A class bonus to Acrobatics checks would handle a lot of things. A number of the combat relevant spells could become daily or encounter powers, and you've plenty of utility type spells to make.


Honestly, a quick skim, this reads as a Hengeyokai Thief to me, with a Ritual Caster feat. Wanna get complex play a Warlock|Executioner.

The basic idea of a Cat Burglar is you're a mage/thief. You shapeshift into a kitten or full grown cat, get adopted into a wealthy household by a young child who like cats and proceed to scope the place out for possible burglary (or sabotage if you're a revolutionary). At 1st Level you gain a secret language (which cats also happen to speak), feline empathy, and a utility bonus you assign to a specific check, roll or even your AC at the start each day. You also get your first Kitty form which can be either the average housecat, a wildcat, a kitten, a catgirl, a catfaced monkey, etc. At 4th Level and every third Level after you get some sort of new kitty form (at epic levels you can become a Catzilla). At 2nd Level and every three levels thereafter you gain a Kitty Magic ability, which is a spell used as a Spell Like Ability x times per day (usually Transformation, Enchantment) or some sort of minor supernatural ability. At Level 3 and every three Levels thereafter you gain a Burglaring Ability, which is your Rogue type defenses, sneak attack, and the like. You also gain an Enhanced Kitty Form which is some sort of Bonus you can only use in Kitty Form (for example Winged Kitty Form allows you to fly as a cat now).

[Tegu8788]

Kitty forms would make for utility powers. As for getting adopted, I'm not sure how effective that is gonna be in a campaign in 4E. What happens if the kitty is part of a regular party?

[NecroRebel]

Being a mage/thief is pretty much as easy as being an arcane class that multiclasses to pick up Stealth or Thievery or a Rogue that multiclasses to pick up some arcane powers. Alternatively, a hybrid rogue|arcane class character, though those are somewhat more difficult to do well (hybrids in general are). Rogues have decent stat synergy, generally the second-most important consideration for hybridizing after "can I get what I want out of hybridizing some other way," with bards, warlocks, and sorcerers.

Shapeshifting is easily gotten by being a hengeyokai, but generally it doesn't actually give you much or anything in the way of mechanical benefits to change your shape. There are ways to do it, but it's mostly pointless.

Being able to talk to cats and feline empathy would probably be fine for a background benefit, or would be appropriate for a very low-level ritual.

Transformations that actually grant you bonus abilities are mostly the domain of the Warden class, though there are some others sprinkled here and there. Sorcerers have some later on that turn you into a dragon, though if I remember right most of them rely on a Strength secondary stat which a thief-type probably wouldn't have. Otherwise, you can just fluff anything that gives you a stance or aura or anything like that as a personal transformation - it's mechanically very similar.

Magical abilities usable several times per day are literally just powers like every single 4e character gets. Fluff some of your utility powers as basic magic and you're done. Same with your "Burglaring Abilities."

[Bhu]

Kitty forms would make for utility powers. As for getting adopted, I'm not sure how effective that is gonna be in a campaign in 4E. What happens if the kitty is part of a regular party?

Cat Burglars are fond of specializing (i.e. taking prestige classes). They can become Sons of Pinky and be melee combatants, Meowcenaries for ranged fighting, Ferals or Felimancers for casting, etc. In 4e I'd imagine they're generally a Rogue up until Paragon Paths then they're all over the place.

[Tegu8788]

Thats a change in 4E. There are no characters that are "all over" and effective. Now, if you wanted to make a couple Paragon Paths, that would not be too tough. What I think you could do without too much difficulty would be to make a Theme, with a couple power-swap options. A feat-line could also work, tied to stats and shapechanger keyword.

[Bhu]

By all over the place I meant something like multiclassing feats or some such that allow them different roles. In 3.5 I have cat burglar PrC's that require a combo of Cat Burglar and just about every other class existing.

[GPuzzle]

There isn't such a thing. You stick to your strengths and try not to venture off. Simple.

In fact, there's two classes that can boost more than two different stats across their lives - Fighters and Paladins. Often you'll stick to boosting the same two stats.

I think that Flame of Hope adds a nice splash of Leader to any Int-heavy class, and that's about it.

Most classes have minors in other roles such as the Paladin (Defender minor in Leader), Rogue (Striker minor in Controller), Avenger (Striker minor in Defender), Psion (Controller with a variant minor, does have a Leader-like tendency), Shaman (depends on build, varies between all roles).

But those are class-built and perform the same role in different ways: the Paladin mitigates damage by healing his allies, the Rogue needs CA to apply more damage so he applies status effects, the Avenger gets more damage when monsters misbehave, the Psion minors in Leader by debuffing them such as -Cha to defenses or -Cha to hit, the Shaman has a lot of variety in what it does, so it's quite complicated in that case.

[windgate]

I am not really seeing a strong attack magic element to this build idea. From what I am hearing its a rogue with some shape changings and utility magic.

Utility (non-damaging magic) in 4e are rituals. You can attach that to any character with a feat.

As for the shapechanging, you have a few options:

Race: hengeyokai
Themes: Packoutcast, WereX (change the name of the form from X to cat, it does not affect the mechanics in any way)
Class: Druid (The multiclass feat for this also gives you wild shape) Not sure how to use a light blade (sneak attack) as a druid implement though.

[Tegu8788]

Unless there is a bizarre feat I don't know about, I don't think so. Arcane Implement Proficiency requires an Arcane class to use, and Rogue, Druid, and any arcane class are gonna be hard to mix. Otherwise, Windgate has some good options.

[GPuzzle]

I'm thinking Ki-Focus class, Dex+Wis or Dex+Cha, system of Forms similar to the Warden's, PPs give bonuses while in Cat Form. Mixes and matches melee 1 and ranged powers.

[Bhu]

I have begun making templates on the odd chance im crazy enough to do this. Whadya think?: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1864.80 (you'll have to scroll down a bit to them)

[Waddacku]

A theme with the basic features and a bunch of power swaps seems the way to go, really. Add on some feats to expand in different directions or strengthen the existing abilities. Make Paragon Paths to taste. This concept doesn't seem to require any particular class chassis, unless you want to force a role upon it (but it seems you're rather intending it to be versatile).

Secret language, the basic transformation ability, some bumps to skills (from your description, some selection from among Bluff, Thievery, Stealth, and Arcana seem like the relevant thing), and feline empathy if you want to translate that somehow, are the obvious things for theme features. Depending on execution, they might only fill two out of three theme feature slots.

Kitty Forms, some SLAs, probably some Burglaring Abilities go in power swaps. Other things might be better as feats. You'll have to decide what's important to translate and how to execute it. Some things might even be best left as features of PPs.
If something is a coherent whole of multiple different significant abilities, it's prime PP material, obviously. Many of your existing PrCs will carry over well like that, others might actually be better off as a feat or two or some powers.

Epic Destinies are Epic Destinies. If it's enormously hugepotent and character defining, it might go there.


Those templates look good, far as I can tell. Nice resource to have around.

[Bhu]

Thanks :smallsmile:

When I get all the templates done I'll post them somewhere on GitP for people to copy off and use.

[Bhu]

Ran into a problem with the monster templates powers: what to use in place of the symbols?

[Tegu8788]

That is tricky. A * or (*) works.

The thing about 4e is, templates don't really matter. They don't really exist, for a reason. It's filling things out that's the really hard part. I can fit a homebrew monster easily on a post-it note, and throw it away as easily. Unless you plan on making the power analysis graph we all keep starting to make, a template isn't really useful.

Now if you so want to make the power analyzer, that we can support, again.