Is a Spelljamming Lich tougher than a normal Lich?

[unseenmage]

So thinking about pitting my players against a Lich who has a Spelljammer. Not sure exactly if this makes the Lich more dangerous because of increased options or not.

Thoughts Playground?

The game is level 16 3.x, Pathfinder and 3rd party allowed with permission. Game is high powered, medium high cheese, and Faerun. Party is definitely a Druid, and maybe an Artificer. Possibly a couple of others who're likely martial characters. Everything is still in the planning stages.

Feel free to just educate me about 3.x Spelljamming in general too. I've lightly perused what info on the conversion I could find online. Not planning on taking the game into the stars but I'm not against it if that's what the plot/players want though.


Edit:
The Lich in question is Demchungchumrub a 19th level Conjurer inhabiting the Many Windowed Tower in the Hordelands box set.
His stats are spoilered below. If someone wants to convert him to 3.x that'd be awesome. Advice in that direction also welcome. :smallsmile:

Spell Selection
First Level (6)
Audible Glamer
Dancing lights
Charm person
Hypnotism
Phantasmal force
Unseen servant
Second Level (6)
Darkness, 15’ radius
Fog cloud
Summon swarm
Esp
Hypnotic pattern
(Any one)
Third Level (6)
Gust of wind
Phantom steed
Suggestion
Clairvoyance
(Any two)
Fourth Level (6)
Solid fog
Evard’s black tentacles
Confusion
Magic mirror
Hallucinatory terrain
(Any one)
Fifth Level (6)
Distance distortion
Teleport
Conjure elemental
Domination
(Any two)
Sixth Level (4)
Control weather (x2)
Invisible stalker
Mass suggestion
Seventh Level (4)
Limited wish
Power word, stun
Control undead
(Any one)
Eighth Level (4)
Sink
Power word, blind
(Any two)
Ninth Level (2)
Wish
(Any one)
Demchungchumrub: AC 0; MV 6; HD 11 +; hp 56;
#AT 1; Dmg 1-10; SA fear, paralysis, spell immunities,
+ 1 weapon or better to hit; AL NE.

[BWR]

It's a lich in SPAAAAACE! Of course it's tougher.

A 'jammer is a flying ship which can travel between stars. If the party has no way of following him off planet or between stars, he can run beyond their reach if need be. Other than that, it doesn't really matter. It doesn't have any special powers other than flying and space travel.

[Svata]

Only by virtue of having infinitely more places to hide his phylactery.

[Brookshw]

Depends on which. The master lich (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?627244-Let-s-Read-AD-amp-D-2e-Spelljammer-Aliens-Unleashed/page16) was supposed to be stronger. Then you have your fire lich which was at a bit of a disadvantage, a big one at that but were still cool.. There was also the arch lich so, good lich.

And while were on the topic, autognomes, 'nuff said.

[Bronk]

If there were any monsters or magic items that you were holding back on because they weren't native to Toril, this would be the time to pull them out... and eventually make them available to the players.

Depending on how powerful it is, it could be using a ship powered by an Antifurnace, and the players could eventually get their hands on whatever artifact is inside powering it.

It could be a holdover of the ill fated Netherese spelljamming attempts, and have a lot of ancient knowledge lying about.

[unseenmage]

Depends on which. The master lich (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?627244-Let-s-Read-AD-amp-D-2e-Spelljammer-Aliens-Unleashed/page16) was supposed to be stronger. Then you have your fire lich which was at a bit of a disadvantage, a big one at that but were still cool.. There was also the arch lich so, good lich.

And while were on the topic, autognomes, 'nuff said.

Hunted down the actual stats (added them to the OP) and it looks like it's just a normal Lich. Not that I'm not above kicking it up a notch or two. Found this 3.x version of the Master Lich (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_t.php?TemplateID=71).
Edit: Pleas e forgive my ignorance but what're Autognomes?


If there were any monsters or magic items that you were holding back on because they weren't native to Toril, this would be the time to pull them out... and eventually make them available to the players.

Depending on how powerful it is, it could be using a ship powered by an Antifurnace, and the players could eventually get their hands on whatever artifact is inside powering it.

It could be a holdover of the ill fated Netherese spelljamming attempts, and have a lot of ancient knowledge lying about.

That's a great idea. There's already a plot in place regarding a character who has ideas in his head that aren't native to Faerun. He thought it was his god's divine inspiration but his god actually told him that wasn't the case. :smalleek: Perhaps this could be woven into the previous plot.

[Brookshw]

N
Hunted down the actual stats (added them to the OP) and it looks like it's just a normal Lich. Not that I'm not above kicking it up a notch or two. Found this 3.x version of the Master Lich (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_t.php?TemplateID=71).
Edit: Pleas e forgive my ignorance but what're Autognomes?


By all means, kick away. That's pretty much the breadth of spelljammer liches as I know them (well, liches and demiliches are still around). 'Fro is probably your best source really, there's some cool spelljammer critters (and a lot of lame ones).

As to autognomes (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/autognom.php), pretty much what they sound like.

[Andorax]

What source are you using for your Spelljammer rules? Are you trying to convert it yourself, or using the Poly "Shadow of the Spider Moon" source materials?

Any lich who isn't somehow dependent or beholden to living allies and has even a tiny amount of common sense will purge his vessel of breathable atmosphere. His ship either has NO air, or the air is completely unbreathable. That's a bonus obstacle, if not a difficult one to overcome at these levels.

[unseenmage]

What source are you using for your Spelljammer rules? Are you trying to convert it yourself, or using the Poly "Shadow of the Spider Moon" source materials?

Any lich who isn't somehow dependent or beholden to living allies and has even a tiny amount of common sense will purge his vessel of breathable atmosphere. His ship either has NO air, or the air is completely unbreathable. That's a bonus obstacle, if not a difficult one to overcome at these levels.

Not entirely sure yet. I was just using whatever I could find online for now. To my knowledge the major difference mechanically between Spelljammers and run-of-the-mill airships is the Spelljamming Helm and a certain magnitude of speed that allows them to navigate space in reasonable amounts of time.

If you have corrections/suggestions please feel free to share. The Spelljamming is supposed to be a minor option in this adventure but I would love to have the option to make it more campaign worthy.

[Bullet06320]

if you haven't already seen it
http://www.spelljammer.org/
everything already converted for 3.5

[Bronk]

There are a few good spelljammer sites out there, but I'd say they're best for inspiration, since they often contradict each other. They'll have different prices for items, different or incomplete lists of items, as well as contradicting rules for playing, making ships, and so on. Most of them don't actually use the 3.5 shipbuilding rules from the Arms and Equipment Guide and Stormwrack either, giving a ship stats like a creature instead of treating it like a series of ten foot cubes with their own stats. (Although I think it's much easier to keep track of one big thing than many little things.)

There are also a few other places in to find spelljamming and ship info, including dragon magazine articles about githyanki astral ships and that dungeon/polygon article that was previously mentioned (although that one doesn't include the concept of crystal spheres). Oh, there was also a Dungeon adventure that involved a crashed neogi mindspider ship. Most of the best background information is still in the original books though.

I'm currently running a game that's recently delved into spelljamming, and I've mostly had fun with coming up with stuff that worked for me, that grew out of finding hidden portals and teleportation circles left in fallen Netherese cites and outposts. I averaged the prices for special ship items like hull plating from the various websites, introduced new monsters, creatures and places.

I was even inspired by your list of cool magical plants and made a whole mini planet covered with overgrown wishferns! I threw an ancient drifting overgrown elven space tree ship (a flitter) on there while I was at it.

I think for a cool atmospheric ship, the original spelljammer book called out liches as using human ships, but a later book noted that undead in general often used 90 ton pyramid ships and their crews were usually other, lesser undead. I think that under spelljammer rules they would still have air in there, but it would be unbreatheable, either because they let it go foul or they deliberately kept it poisonous. It might be filled by traps that only trigger on the living, as well.

Also, you might want to watch the prices of everything in case they just decide to loot and run. Passage devices are super expensive... 10K gold per ton of ship. Helms are expensive too... 100k for a minor and 250k for a major. You might want to consider that he's spelljamming locally within the sphere, using a lesser and very evil deathjammer or lifejammer that the PCs might want to just smash, or getting around by jumping back and forth to the planes with a 10K planar sail. (If they keep prisoners around for the evil helms, maybe they keep them in stasis and/or have necklaces of adaptation for them.)

Liches are called out as often starting out as having strongholds that just drift along using regular magic, and then, thousands of years later, getting angry when they learn about how easy spelljamming can be, so maybe this one has a chip on his shoulder because he's captured a smaller, more mobile spelljamming ship in his larger base, and that's the ship that the PCs might need to take if they want to keep spelljamming... maybe a mosquito or damselfly ship, or one of the smaller elven ships like a doombat or a warbird if they're into elven ships.

Also... elven ships are called out as being trees, even though they're technically the magically altered seedpod of the starfly mother tree, so they can be awakened. Just throwing that in there because I think it's cool.

Update:
As for being more powerful, bringing in spelljamming implies that there are crystal spheres, and if there are crystal spheres, it's possible that the lich could be old enough to predate the solar system, and have amassed a lot of power.

Additionally, the space between crystal spheres, the phlogiston, is specifically called out as being an insurmountable barrier to all planar effects, including teleportation, plane shifting, gating, conjuring, summoning, the mere presence of gods... everything. However, in the Cloakmaster cycle novels, a lich dies, and instead of its soul going to a phylactery somewhere, a demon pops in from the hells, claims its soul, and leaves. So... there's that extra 'power' (although it's probably just a lack of research on the author's part).

[unseenmage]

...

I was even inspired by your list of cool magical plants and made a whole mini planet covered with overgrown wishferns! I threw an ancient drifting overgrown elven space tree ship (a flitter) on there while I was at it.

...

Wow, cool! Thanks for the info.

Beware the Wishfern, they can be tended/harvested by Constructs or Undead who have enough ranks in the appropriate skills. May I also suggest a planet full of overgrown Lichbriar. :smallyuk:

Perhaps my next listing project should be Spelljamming materials... Hmm.

[Bronk]

These particular wishferns were on a wee, magically hidden planet that had been the site of a research station staffed by inept Netherese druids... the ferns finally flourished after they finally abandoned the place, and have since covered pretty much everything. I like the lichbriar idea! Those guys were great wizards, but terrible druids... what a mess they've made!

If you end up looking for items in the old books, 'War Captain's Companion' seems to have the most extensive list, while the book 'Lost Ships' has a section on the undead pyramid ships.

[Coidzor]

Depends. If the phylactery is on the spelljammer inside the Crystal Sphere, then anything tough enough to wax the Lich should be able to get access to the spelljammer and destroy the phylactery. If the phylactery is in another crystal sphere then the Lich has to figure out how to get back to his Spelljammer now that it's potentially been taken by the peeps what whacked him or at least has a potentially long travel time to get to where he left it and the group of creatures he owes a good offing.

If Kinetic Energy Weapons/AKA "Rods from God" and the like are on the table, then, there's that, I suppose, which mean exactly as much as the DM has ruled them to be or wherever they cribbed the rules from in the first place ruled them to be, I guess.

[Socksy]

I'd suggest that the party Cleric or Wizard invest in Interplanetary Teleport (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/interplanetaryTeleport.html) once they hit level 17, if they're allowed to. That should make things a bit easier for them.

EDIT: Give the Lich Symbol of Death. It'll deal with mooks (and the wizard/sorc/psion/other squishy type if you can dispel their buffs first). In fact, have the bloody things carved all over every square inch of spelljammer. Perhaps Disjunction for a 9th?

[Khedrac]

I've not looked at Spelljammer in years, and I haven't seen the 3. conversions, but there is a huge but to watch out for:

What type of Helm is he using?

If it's a standard Spelljammer helm the lich has no spells.

It's why, for me, the one person ships never really work, especially for reclusive spellcasters, I mean, what reclusive spell-caster is going to give up their entire daily spellcasting capability for movement? - it leaves them comparatively defenceless. (There's a mini-adventure somewhere with a 2nd Ed Arch Lich (good align) who is looking for company - they drive the ship, you keep your spells...)

[Darkweave31]

Tougher because there are infinite places where the phylactery could be hidden (then again a lich could gate to any number of infinite planes.

Not as tough in battle because the helm would prevent it from using its arcane abilities unless it uses other methods than its own magic for powering it.

[Bronk]

The lich could use a regular helm itself (and lose its spells), or it could have lesser spellcaster minions to do it for him. The death and life helms use disposable slaves or whatever to run, so that wouldn't be a problem. Antifurnaces, powered by artifacts, run by themselves.

Also, if it were a dry lich, it would have multiple phylacteries, and each one could be hidden on a different world, and each world could be on a different plane or in a different crystal sphere, or drifting in the phlogiston somewhere.