How you can tell your DM is a jerk: Monsters that a DM only uses to annoy the players

[atemu1234]

There are a few. My personal un-favorite is the Rust Monster. Because why not?

[Arael666]

A good DM knows how to use those. Just because the players don't like, it doesn't mean it's not right to use.

The DM might want to balance wealth by level or even "reset" the players posessions. It all comes down to what is your DMs intentions.

One thing is true, using these monsters because reasons is not cool.

[JusticeZero]

They're puzzle monsters. They're good for some things.

[Dornith]

I think rust beasts are completely reasonable if used properly.
In the world I've created for my players, the desert (which occupies the south 1/3 of the continent) is infested with all kinds of creatures, a major one being rust beasts. As a result, it's common knowledge that if you're traveling in the desert, leave all your metal behind! Put them in a bank or sell them, or something; just don't carry metal. Also, they're not naturally aggressive creatures, so they generally won't attack unless attacked.
Also, our fighter has not got his equipment enchanted to be rust-resistant.

Edit: Also, Bronze. People who travel in the desert a lot carry bronze weapons.

[Doc_Maynot]

That Damned Crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)

[Nicrosil]

Okay, what's the deal with the Monstrous Crab? Is there some joke I'm missing, or am I reading its entry wrong? What's with the hate on it?

Also, a dungeon full of grapplers against a party of casters. Started interesting, quickly grew irritating. (Sadly, I was DM for this one. Whoops.)

[One Step Two]

Okay, what's the deal with the Monstrous Crab? Is there some joke I'm missing, or am I reading its entry wrong? What's with the hate on it?

Also, a dungeon full of grapplers against a party of casters. Started interesting, quickly grew irritating. (Sadly, I was DM for this one. Whoops.)


The Monsterous Crab is a CR 3 monster with Improved Grab and a Grapple Modifier of +19. A level 3 fighter with strength 20, will have a grapple modifier of +8.

It's written tactics is to grab someone and then drag them underwater and eat them. Let that sink in.

[Mikeavelli]

The Crab is poorly balanced for its CR. A party that attempts to engage it using normal tactics is going to die.

- Huge number of hitpoints for CR3.
- Huge attack bonus for CR3
- What 3rd level character is going to be able to beat +19 grapple? There are 10th level characters that would lose against that.
- Vermin type makes it immune to a lot of mind affecting stuff.
- 40 ft speed makes even kiting it difficult.

Compare it to a more balanced brute monster of the same type, like the Ogre. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogre.htm)

[Vedhin]

Ephemeral Swarm, from Monster Manual III.

It's an Incorporeal Undead Swarm, meaning that melee is effectively useless, in addition to a host of immunities. It's CR 5 and has 12 HD, so no turning for you. As a swarm, the classic force spell magic missle doesn't work (specified # of targets). It also has 90 hp. The (auto-hit) swarm attack is 1d6 Strength damage, and kills anything that hits 0 (remember, the casters, who pose an actual threat, often dump Strength).


Or maybe the Adamantine Horror, a CR 9 from MMII.

At will disjunction. And implosion, and disintegrate.

[Muggins]

In the same vein as Rust Monsters, there are Folugubs. They eat crystal instead of metal.


Okay, what's the deal with the Monstrous Crab? Is there some joke I'm missing, or am I reading its entry wrong? What's with the hate on it?

Also, a dungeon full of grapplers against a party of casters. Started interesting, quickly grew irritating. (Sadly, I was DM for this one. Whoops.)
Grapple Modifier: +19
Challenge Rating: 3

Additionally, it automatically gets a grapple attempt when it hits with one of its 1d8+9 claws (and has 1d8+9 Constrict).
Edit: I totes got beaten to the punch here. Still, the more you know.

[Vedhin]

In the same vein as Rust Monsters, there are Folugubs. They eat crystal instead of metal.


Grapple Modifier: +19
Challenge Rating: 3

Additionally, it automatically gets a grapple attempt when it hits with one of its 1d8+9 claws (and has 1d8+9 Constrict).

FrankTrollman provided a helpful summary of it's turns in an average combat once.


Round One: Giant Crab charges 80 feet and reaches out and touches someone (10' reach) for a +12 attack bonus. Then it does 13.5 damage. Then it Grapples, which it wins, and inflicts another 13.5 damage of constriction.

Round 2: Having just inflicted 27 points of damage on a 3rd level character in one round, it hurls the bloody carcass over its head and repeats the process with some other hapless 3rd level PC who happens to be within its 90 foot charge range.

Round 3: Having dispatched 2 PCs, it takes out the third PC.

Round Four: Assuming that the final character has not gotten a rush of brains to the head and hid, the Crab finishes off the last player character and dances around.

[Zanos]

Okay, what's the deal with the Monstrous Crab? Is there some joke I'm missing, or am I reading its entry wrong? What's with the hate on it?

Also, a dungeon full of grapplers against a party of casters. Started interesting, quickly grew irritating. (Sadly, I was DM for this one. Whoops.)
It's just a numbers game. The Crab has solid defensive stat's for it's CR, 65 HP and AC 19. Not insurmountable, but most melee characters will miss half the time. At CR 3 the Crab is also probably faster than most people in the party, especially if they wear armor. The Crab is a vermin, giving it immunity to most low level will save effects, so targeting it's weak save isn't particularly useful.

The real problem is the Crabs offensive. It gets it's turn. It charges anyone within 80 feet with a +2 to hit, and probably hits more often than not. This deals 13.5 damage on average. Then it grapples, which it passes because it has +19 to grapple, constricting for another 13.5 damage. A level 3 fighter with 16 con has 26 HP. So your frontline is dead. If anyone tries to actually melee The Crab it has two +10 natural attacks that both trigger it's improved grab and wreck your face. Oh and it has reach, so if you approach it he gets a free AoO...and another chance to grab you and constrict for another 13.5 damage.

If you play it as written it will probably grab someone, kill them, and then leave. If you don't it will probably butcher the entire party.

EDIT: Damn Ninjas.

[Nicrosil]

Oh. OH. Okay, that explains a lot. I'm terrible at reading monster entries. :smalltongue:


It's written tactics is to grab someone and then drag them underwater and eat them. Let that sink in.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/312/563/05d.jpg

So, what's with all the hate on monks then?

[One Step Two]

Oh. OH. Okay, that explains a lot. I'm terrible at reading monster entries. :smalltongue:



http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/312/563/05d.jpg

I am sometimes referred to as Attila the Pun by my gaming group :smallbiggrin:


So, what's with all the hate on monks then?

I think it's because they don't pack as much punch as other classes. :smallwink:
I hope you get a kick out of that.

[avr]

If rot grubs ever show up they're a clear sign. I'm not sure they were updated to 3.x though; I hope not.

[One Step Two]

I would say all of MM2, but they aren't all bad, but I am going to point out the Juggernaut. A construct that will destroy almost anything in it's way, with it's ability to cast Web, Grease, Slow, Wall of Force and Forcecage, at will, and a 10d10+20 Squash attack.

[the_other_gm]

A good DM knows how to use those. Just because the players don't like, it doesn't mean it's not right to use.

The DM might want to balance wealth by level or even "reset" the players posessions. It all comes down to what is your DMs intentions.

One thing is true, using these monsters because reasons is not cool.

If a DM has been giving out treasure and he realizes he's given out too much or given too powerful a weapon/item or whatnot, telling the group "I messed up and would like to do an audit on some of this treasure I've given out" is far better then strait up pulling a jerk move like putting in a monster specifically to take away their toys.

I've met few players that wouldn't be responsive to the GM toning down some gear rather then taking it abruptly away if the stuff is disruptive to play.

[Vogonjeltz]

It's just a numbers game. The Crab has solid defensive stat's for it's CR, 65 HP and AC 19. Not insurmountable, but most melee characters will miss half the time. At CR 3 the Crab is also probably faster than most people in the party, especially if they wear armor. The Crab is a vermin, giving it immunity to most low level will save effects, so targeting it's weak save isn't particularly useful.

The real problem is the Crabs offensive. It gets it's turn. It charges anyone within 80 feet with a +2 to hit, and probably hits more often than not. This deals 13.5 damage on average. Then it grapples, which it passes because it has +19 to grapple, constricting for another 13.5 damage. A level 3 fighter with 16 con has 26 HP. So your frontline is dead. If anyone tries to actually melee The Crab it has two +10 natural attacks that both trigger it's improved grab and wreck your face. Oh and it has reach, so if you approach it he gets a free AoO...and another chance to grab you and constrict for another 13.5 damage.

If you play it as written it will probably grab someone, kill them, and then leave. If you don't it will probably butcher the entire party.

EDIT: Damn Ninjas.

Yeah except it's vulnerable to everyone's #1 favorite spell, glitterdust which, surprise!, is only a level 2 spell and thus available to a party of 4 encountering it.

With a +4 reflex and no escape artist ranks, Web works too, also:

Daze Monster (specific exemption allows it to affect any living type of monster, so it ignores vermin immunity.

That's just from the wizard spell list. And a melee character has many feat along with possible magic items to deal with the crabs grapple. And if it comes to it, aid another is a thing (and considering this would be a 4 on 1 fight, I don't think it's unreasonable that the players should easily win).

[Doc_Maynot]

How is a level 3 wizard using a 2nd level spell?

[Raven777]

That thing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/red-jester). Oh gods that thing. /rocks in a corner.

[Vogonjeltz]

How is a level 3 wizard using a 2nd level spell?

Probably by casting from their 2nd level spell slot.

Perhaps you're thinking of sorcerers?

[Doc_Maynot]

Oh darn, you're right. I was looking at the wrong table on the srd page.
I really wish they'd separate the two classes on that site.

[Kazyan]

Yeah except it's vulnerable to everyone's #1 favorite spell, glitterdust which, surprise!, is only a level 2 spell and thus available to a party of 4 encountering it.

With a +4 reflex and no escape artist ranks, Web works too, also:

Daze Monster (specific exemption allows it to affect any living type of monster, so it ignores vermin immunity.

That's just from the wizard spell list. And a melee character has many feat along with possible magic items to deal with the crabs grapple. And if it comes to it, aid another is a thing (and considering this would be a 4 on 1 fight, I don't think it's unreasonable that the players should easily win).

Okay, but you're definitely using more than 25% of the party's resources in this scenario. Were the crab CR 3, it wouldn't take as much doing.

[jguy]

That thing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/red-jester). Oh gods that thing. /rocks in a corner.

That thing is the most ridiculous monster I have ever come across. My DM used several in a game but he ignored the Deck of Many Things ability since he didn't know what the referenced. I am glad he did since he would have wrecked his own game. Its CR is inflated due to that ability too. Take that away and it is a CR 10 monster with only 67 hp and an AC of 24. Its DR 10/magic is pointless at that level too. Looking over it, the monster is missing 45 hp. PF undead get Cha to HP and that isn't taken into account. Raises the CR to about a 8 or 9 then.

[Darth Paul]

Frigging Kobolds.

At least, if they're played like they should be (heh, heh, heh).

Having a negligible STR and hit points, there is no reason a Kobold should ever engage a PC in melee unless forced to. They should rely on traps, prepared ambushes, riddling the PCs with sling bullets from concealed positions, then retreating before the PCs can fight back; then do it again from the next position. They should encircle the party and attack from unexpected directions; drop the party into pit traps and shove boulders on top of them. Kobolds (and goblins, for that matter) should be the ultimate guerilla fighters. Players should hate, hate, HATE KOBOLDS.

Heh, heh, heh.

[jguy]

I myself made a monster that I can never use without coming off as a complete douche. A Vampire Nymph is a CR 9 with 33 AC completely nude, over 100 hp, an AoE blind, an at-will stun and dominate, energy drain and casts as a 7th level druid. With a few spells (Barkskin, Cat's Grace) it is easy to get her AC to almost 40. Now I went one step further and gave that build 2 levels of Monk. This brings her to about CR 10 or 11 (depending on how you classify monk as a helpful class to nymph or not) and NPC level gear. Completely nude she has 45 AC, almost 200 HP, her lowest save is a +17 in fort and the DC's of her abilities is a 27. I could never throw this character at a level appropriate group without my players quitting.

[HunterOfJello]

An evil dragon who has not yet attacked you, is impossible to find information on, and is of a size category somewhere between 'hard' and 'literally impossible to beat'.

[ryu]

That thing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/red-jester). Oh gods that thing. /rocks in a corner.

When reading that I got through of the and was like what it's just an ordinary OH MY GOODNESS! Decks of many things at level ten too stronk.

[Doc_Maynot]

Isn't it theoretically possible to do that with shapesand though?

[Raven777]

When reading that I got through of the and was like what it's just an ordinary OH MY GOODNESS! Decks of many things at level ten too stronk.

Weaponized Deck of Many things. Also, we fought it as a 9th level party, along with his Pale Stranger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/pale-stranger) and evil Cleric buddies. Poor Rogue spent the fight running up trees from the fear Cackle. Luckily, only the Flames and Comet cards (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/artifacts/minor-artifacts/deck-of-many-things) were drawn.

[Phelix-Mu]

Personally, if you players want to play with all your toys (and they are legion), then I, as DM, also get to have some fun. And sometimes that might suck for you. But adventuring isn't easy, and destruction of WBL is really more of a blip on the radar than proof that aliens exist. So I don't really sympathize with people that seem to think that some things are inherently unfair or off-bounds.

Just my opinion, though, and I'm sure some of you will feel differently, which is also fine.

But, in the spirit of the thread, I submit the annihilation monster. I think that is what it's called. It's a rust-monster-like creature from Underdark that causes a disintegration effect instead of a rust effect.

Speaking of which, rust effects are also spells! Don't even need a good ol' rust monster to mess up the fighter's day.

[ryu]

Weaponized Deck of Many things. Also, we fought it as a 9th level party, along with his Pale Stranger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/pale-stranger) and evil Cleric buddies. Poor Rogue spent the fight running up trees from the fear Cackle. Luckily, only the Flames and Comet cards (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/artifacts/minor-artifacts/deck-of-many-things) were drawn.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why you do not use deck of many things irresponsibly. Incidentally if you're even contemplating willingly drawing from a deck of many things you aren't responsible enough to own one.

[ericgrau]

Yeah except it's vulnerable to everyone's #1 favorite spell, glitterdust which, surprise!, is only a level 2 spell and thus available to a party of 4 encountering it.

With a +4 reflex and no escape artist ranks, Web works too, also:

Daze Monster (specific exemption allows it to affect any living type of monster, so it ignores vermin immunity.

That's just from the wizard spell list. And a melee character has many feat along with possible magic items to deal with the crabs grapple. And if it comes to it, aid another is a thing (and considering this would be a 4 on 1 fight, I don't think it's unreasonable that the players should easily win).
Those might help you flee, but you still probably won't kill it. Even with a 50% miss chance or immobility anything that gets in melee range will die in a couple rounds. You can pelt it for low damage at a distance (usually missing btw), but it will break free or the 3 round glitterdust duration will expire before you do much damage.

At CR 3 it's supposed to be a routine fight for level 3 characters. In fact, a party of level 1 or 2 characters are supposed to be able to beat it with some difficulty. So it takes perfect spell preparation and group tactics just to bring it down to the level of "fight of a lifetime that might not be a TPK if we're lucky" for level 3 characters. That's not what CR 3 means.

[OracleofWuffing]

At CR 3 it's supposed to be a routine fight for level 3 characters. In fact, a party of level 1 or 2 characters are supposed to be able to beat it with some difficulty. So it takes perfect spell preparation and group tactics just to bring it down to the level of "fight of a lifetime that might not be a TPK if we're lucky" for level 3 characters. That's not what CR 3 means.
Actually, you know what? If your DM is throwing any idea based solely off Challenge Ratings at you, that should be a few blips on a DM Jerkiness radar. :smalltongue: The only reason why it is a good system to start designing encounters is because there's no other gauge available for difficulty.

[Vogonjeltz]

Okay, but you're definitely using more than 25% of the party's resources in this scenario. Were the crab CR 3, it wouldn't take as much doing.

Maybe if it kills a player? But I don't think it will if they have teamwork

[Alex12]

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why you do not use deck of many things irresponsibly. Incidentally if you're even contemplating willingly drawing from a deck of many things you aren't responsible enough to own one.

My default idea for Decks of Many Things (and it's weaker siblings like the Deck of Transformations, but not the deck of illusions) is to sell draws from it to other people.

[Vogonjeltz]

Those might help you flee, but you still probably won't kill it. Even with a 50% miss chance or immobility anything that gets in melee range will die in a couple rounds. You can pelt it for low damage at a distance (usually missing btw), but it will break free or the 3 round glitterdust duration will expire before you do much damage.

At CR 3 it's supposed to be a routine fight for level 3 characters. In fact, a party of level 1 or 2 characters are supposed to be able to beat it with some difficulty. So it takes perfect spell preparation and group tactics just to bring it down to the level of "fight of a lifetime that might not be a TPK if we're lucky" for level 3 characters. That's not what CR 3 means.

I mean 4 people using ranged weaponry could probably bring it down in 3 rounds.

[ryu]

My default idea for Decks of Many Things (and it's weaker siblings like the Deck of Transformations, but not the deck of illusions) is to sell draws from it to other people.

Acceptable on a few conditions. The victim doesn't know who or where you are. The victim pays up front. The victim is to have the written consent of any next of kin to prevent oaths of vengeance. The victim is not powerful enough to render the previous conditions moot if they get an unfavorable, but non-fatal result.

[the_other_gm]

Main problem is that few PCs have a move speed of 40+ so running away and shooting back won't help you much when it's making quite a bit of headway every turn while you keep stepping back and shooting.

In a several hundred foot clearing, a party of 4 might take it down in several rounds, but D&D combats rarely start off at such extreme ranges.

Most likely this thing will be encountered in a room/environment that is at best 100ft.

The crab itself is 10x10 in size. It can move up to 80ft on a charge. it has a 10ft reach. in short, even if you both start off at the opposite sides of a 100ft room, the crab can still bum rush a PC, probably grab it and constrict on the first turn.

This thing is absolutely nuts.

[Vogonjeltz]

Main problem is that few PCs have a move speed of 40+ so running away and shooting back won't help you much when it's making quite a bit of headway every turn while you keep stepping back and shooting.

In a several hundred foot clearing, a party of 4 might take it down in several rounds, but D&D combats rarely start off at such extreme ranges.

Most likely this thing will be encountered in a room/environment that is at best 100ft.

The crab itself is 10x10 in size. It can move up to 80ft on a charge. it has a 10ft reach. in short, even if you both start off at the opposite sides of a 100ft room, the crab can still bum rush a PC, probably grab it and constrict on the first turn.

This thing is absolutely nuts.

That's why blind and entangle, so it can't charge, or close

[Scorponok]

Regarding the monsterous crab, you could have the level-3 wizard cast Levitate on himself or another PC weighing less than 300 lbs. and just shoot arrows at it for 3 minutes. But yeah, looks like it's a given those without levitate would soon die.

[Flickerdart]

Sea Hags, Spider Eaters, and similar monsters that show up when the d20 is still the only meaningful player in your saving throws, and then incapacitate you for days or weeks. Or the Basilisk, which has a permanent petrification. At CR 4-5, these things can show up really early on, when PCs have no answer to these things if they take hold, and by the time they have those resources, the monsters are worthless because the DC is too low. The sea hag is especially nasty because it dazes you for 3 days, and there isn't any way listed to break that effect. So the poor sod that gets hit with that doesn't get to play for three in-game days - and since a single combat of 12-24 seconds can take hours to play out, that's a lot of games.

[Svata]

I mean 4 people using ranged weaponry could probably bring it down in 3 rounds.

Let's run the numbers. A elf (for dex) fighter/ranger/barbarian (+3 to hit) with 20 DEX (+5), and Weapon Focus(longbow) (+1) (Cause being within 30' for point blank shot is a deat sentence), will hit about half of the time. Let's be extremely generous and say he has 18 STR, and a Mighty (+4) Compound Longbow. He does 1d8+4 on each hit, averaging 9 damage per hit. That's 4.5 damage/round. If all 4 people run this, its 18 damage/round. That does it in 3.611 rounds, which rounds up to 4. That's if all members are running that setup. That's highly specialized, and counts on the crab not killing anyone. Whch, as has been shown, is quite easy for it.

[The Grue]

In the world I've created for my players, the desert (which occupies the south 1/3 of the continent) is infested with all kinds of creatures, a major one being rust beasts.

Please tell me said desert is comprised of red sand. :smallbiggrin:

[Uhtred]

Inspired by Danny Phantom's Box Ghost, a laughable villain who believes himself to be a real threat to the protagonist, my players have a recurring nemesis in a mysteriously re-spawning but laughably incompetent band of Bullywugs who are hell-bent on destroying the party. Unlike the other mooks in the campaign, who have gained hit dice and character levels as the campaign has gone on, the Bullywugs have stayed at 6HD, and so are barely a bump in the road for a party of lvl 16's. Every time the party encounters them they have found some "magic weapon" or "ancient artifact" that will allow them to finally best the party that turns out to be something mundane and stupid, and results, always, in a curb-stomp for the Bullywugs. I put them in every six or seven sessions, and my players always roll their eyes and sigh heavily, curious what the "stupid toad-people" have found to defeat them this time. :)

[BWR]

Since I started running old Mystara adventures I've been accused of throwing grudge monsters at my players, even if I'm just running them as written.
Rust monsters were one reason.
Death leeches were another.
Druj were a third.
Among many.

Other favorites
Giant bees from pre 2 edition. Low-level monsters with a SoD poison.
Ear seekers.

[Zombimode]

Daze Monster (specific exemption allows it to affect any living type of monster, so it ignores vermin immunity.

Daze Monster is still flagged as an Mind-Affecting spell and the giant crab as a vermin is immune to all mind-affecting effects by virtue of its creature type. So no, Daze Monster does not work.

[Ianuagonde]

Beholders. Aside from the ridiculous amount of offense it can dish out, it has an anti-magic eye. So the archer moves into the anti-magic cone, and we begin a game of 20 questions before shooting. The enhancement bonus of the bow and arrows is gone, but it's still masterwork, so add +1. Gloves of Dex no longer add to the attack, nor do any of the buff spells your buddies cast on you. The Dex bonus from race or stat boost every 4 levels does remain, however. Remember that you keep your size bonus to attack, unless you changed size by magic, in which case it does go away, along with any modification to your stats caused by the change in size. So tell me, dear player, what AC do you hit?

Oh, and if you have extra hit points from a Con booster such as an Amulet of Health, you may die from moving into the anti-magic cone. You did remember that, did you?

And your speed can drop, depending on whether you have Barbarian levels or magic boots. Good luck charging through the cone and figuring out if you reach it's body or if you stop five feet short of attack range.

Asking your players for the right answers to these questions in the middle of combat is hugely annoying. You are aware of everyone waiting for you to complete the math, and at the level your expected to face off a Beholder, you've got a lot of magic numbers to juggle.

I have no problem with anti-magic. I do have a problem with anti-magic that goes on and off and on and off and...

[TheMonocleRogue]

I really hate this guy. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm2_gallery/88268_620_72.jpg) Has the single most broken ability for a CR 9 creature. If you aren't prepared to fight him he'll just faceroll you with spells.

If you've never cringed at unbalanced CR before, go read Monster Manual II, page 127.

[HighWater]

If rot grubs ever show up they're a clear sign. I'm not sure they were updated to 3.x though; I hope not.

They weren't updated. I read about it, liked the fluff (and wanted to warn my players that going waist deep into piles of crap carries some in-game risk).
Then I read up on them and was like WHAT?! That makes no sense, and is a total douche move!

So I kept the fluff and redesigned it to be a hard-to-spot Con-damaging parasite that will enter the body in a few rounds (if not burned off), where it will weaken the health of the individual to a Constitution capped low (to be dangerous, but not lethal) until succesfully removed. (It makes little sense for a parasite to kill its host, it's usually better off if its host gets eaten or just functions as an incubationchamber for its children.)

The Players enjoyed that and it didn't carry an X chance of "you're dead, from a worm... with a CR that's so pathetic the rest will hardly get any experience from it when they burn your corpse..."


That's why blind and entangle, so it can't charge, or close
You can argue that a level 3 party stands a chance (and of course it does, see below), but I'd encourage you to compare That Damn Crab to a grappler of its own CR (I suggest the Giant Praying Mantis, CR3) and you will see that something very serious is going on.

The Crab has:
- more than double the HP
- a better initiative (three higher)
- twice the mantis speed unless the mantis is flying, then it's equal
- the Crab can enter water, which is a problem for most PCs at that level (a bigger problem than a melee vermin that can fly (poorly) and needs to melee
- it's armor class is 5 higher
- it's BAB is better (2 higher)
- it's Grapple is 8 higher than the mantis (who is already a good grappler)
- it does twice the damage on a hit, any hit will let it try a free grapple
- it's to-hit is better (4 higher)
- in a full attack it has 2 chances to hit an do it's grapple thing, mantis only has one grapple chance
- when it does succesfully grapple, it does almost three times the damage the Mantis would
- it's special qualities are equal (or better, depending on how you judge the amphibious vs poor flyer)
- it's saves are better (For 4 higher, Ref 3 higher, Will 1 lower)
- it's ability scores are way better, except charisma, but what would a vermin need charisma for anyways? Unless you can do Cha damage, (rather than penalty) it'll be fine.

To summarise: Very high HP, high AC, high speed, high damage, high damage on grapple, very high chance of initiating grapple, gets to grapple often, saves aren't that awful and it happens to be immune to a fair few SoS/D's of that level.
It's massively better than the Giant Praying Mantis (equal CR) in nearly every conceivable way while fulfilling the same purpose (large vermin grappler).

To be honest, it's stats put it on par with a Large Earth Elemental (CR 5), which is better at some things, worse at other things.


The argument that a well prepared Tier 1 that still happens to have the right spells available can, with effort, take out an encounter that's supposed to be an easy win for the group is a poor one. It's been well established that a Tier 1 who is well prepared with the most powerful spells that still has all his spells available can beat pretty much any encounter provided he's carrying the right powerful spells. And how do those spells do?

- Glitterdust lasts 3 rounds and basically gives the Crab a nasty miss chance. It's not impossible that the Crab kills someone while blinded, it's likely it lives the three rounds to wear it off, or it may just retreat into the water. Also, there's a not unreasonable chance it makes its save, in which case somebody's gonna get their organs rearranged this turn, next turn, and the turn after.

- Web lasts longer, and the Crab will likely need a few turns to escape (+6 on Str), provided it doesn't just make the save (+4 Ref is decent enough). In the meanwhile it may get a cover bonus to AC, or else once it is loose, it will be out of the affected area very swiftly and the killing may begin. If you're caught on a beach (the Crabs natural habitat) that isn't strewn with very big boulders lying around, web is 100% useless though.

- Entangle is even harder to get to work, the Crab hunts coastlines, which often means beaches, which often means no plantgrowth. Again, it has a reasonable chance to save, and it can move through the area regardless (although it can't charge until it gets out of the entangled zone).

These are three of the most powerful spells in Core, requiring the most powerful characters in Core (Wizard and Druid) to pull off at level 3. They are encounter enders, but using them on The Crab doesn't necessarely even end the encounter. If you're stuck without those particular spells, well... That can still get very ugly even with T1 in the party.
Of course it's possible a level 3 party beats this "CR3" Crab, but it's likely to cost much more than an encounter against most other CR3 beasts. It also carries a very high fatality chance for a CR "equal" encounter. The true CR of the Crab is probably a CR 5 or maybe even 6 depending on how it's played (fair, straightforward fight, or snatch&drowner). Sending it after level 3's who aren't forewarned can be massively brutal for a "CR3". If the wizard happens to be a sorcerer instead, that T2 is going to have a hard time doing anything meaningful to the Crab, lower tiers face increasing risks...

Is it unbeatable? No. Is it CR3? HELL no. Treating it as a by-the-book CR3 would qualify for a "DM is a Jerk"-nomination.

As for the nasty monsters, the Allip! CR3 party killer that does wisdom DRAIN, gains temp hit points and is incorporeal. Very hard to beat as a level 3 party without a cleric and Turn Undead is likely to only delay the problem a bit... Even if you beat it, it's pretty expensive to repair wisdom drain...

[TheMonocleRogue]

Beholders. Aside from the ridiculous amount of offense it can dish out, it has an anti-magic eye. So the archer moves into the anti-magic cone, and we begin a game of 20 questions before shooting. The enhancement bonus of the bow and arrows is gone, but it's still masterwork, so add +1. Gloves of Dex no longer add to the attack, nor do any of the buff spells your buddies cast on you. The Dex bonus from race or stat boost every 4 levels does remain, however. Remember that you keep your size bonus to attack, unless you changed size by magic, in which case it does go away, along with any modification to your stats caused by the change in size. So tell me, dear player, what AC do you hit?

Oh, and if you have extra hit points from a Con booster such as an Amulet of Health, you may die from moving into the anti-magic cone. You did remember that, did you?

And your speed can drop, depending on whether you have Barbarian levels or magic boots. Good luck charging through the cone and figuring out if you reach it's body or if you stop five feet short of attack range.

Asking your players for the right answers to these questions in the middle of combat is hugely annoying. You are aware of everyone waiting for you to complete the math, and at the level your expected to face off a Beholder, you've got a lot of magic numbers to juggle.

I have no problem with anti-magic. I do have a problem with anti-magic that goes on and off and on and off and...

The beholder can't use its eye rays on creatures within it's anti-magic cone.

Aside from that, the difficulty of the beholder is largely dependent on the DM and the resources the beholder has access to. A well balanced 13th level party can easily take on a beholder even if it has to resort to spamming its eye rays each round.

[Ansem]

Usually the "Damn this monster is annoying/damn we can't beat it" the DM is expecting you to either get a lucky shot or an extremely well though-out 1/million plan or that you realize the foe is beyond your power and flee to fight another day.
The latter is where the party fails most of the times. So don't point fingers too quickly.

[Ianuagonde]

The beholder can't use its eye rays on creatures within it's anti-magic cone.

Aside from that, the difficulty of the beholder is largely dependent on the DM and the resources the beholder has access to. A well balanced 13th level party can easily take on a beholder even if it has to resort to spamming its eye rays each round.

I made no judgement on how difficult it is to fight a Beholder, with or without eye rays.

As a player, I don't get annoyed by the eye rays (in fact, I've face them several times). I do get annoyed by the amount of time a player has to spend before he make a simple statement such as "my attack hits AC 27, does that hit?". No one has these numbers ready on his character sheet. Other players may or may not need to make the same calculations for attack, speed, HP, damage, etcetera, depending on whether they move into the cone or the Beholder moves the cone on them. And the player who spend all that time may only need the numbers for a single round if the Beholder decides its save-or die time.

I don't think they're lethal, or insta-TPK's, or even difficult, and I haven't said anything to that purpose. I do think they're massively annoying, which is why I wanted to place them on this thread.

[DigoDragon]

Most annoying monster award in my group goes to the epic-level faerie dragon the GM used against us. It wasn't hostile, but because it kept following us, solving all the puzzles for us, and taking a cut of the Exp for solving all the puzzles we were basically getting robbed by the thing. And because this creature had enough templates and wizard levels to make it CR22 against a party of average level 3, we couldn't touch it.

So that was our big jerk annoying GM story.

[Phelix-Mu]

The beholder can't use its eye rays on creatures within it's anti-magic cone.

Aside from that, the difficulty of the beholder is largely dependent on the DM and the resources the beholder has access to. A well balanced 13th level party can easily take on a beholder even if it has to resort to spamming its eye rays each round.

That's why every beholder should enslave war trolls!!

Speaking of which, can a beholder take Ability Focus(eye rays) and have it affect the DCs of all of its various rays?

[Chester]

I don't see it necessarily in terms of specific monsters; I see it in terms of specific monsters in relation to the capability of a particular party.

For instance: a rust monster can be a challenge, but a properly equipped party can rise to the challenge.

When a DM's idea of a challenge is "throw something at the party that they can't handle," that's annoying.

When DM makes sure that there are anti-magic fields, etc. and immobilizes the party caster(s), then initiates a battle, that sucks.

When a low-level party has no magical weapons and the DM throws a creature at them that can only be harmed by magic weapons, that's a jerk move.

TL, DR: It's not the monster itself that makes someone a jerk, it's the careful selection of an impossible monster under the guise of "challenge."

[Zanos]

Most annoying monster award in my group goes to the epic-level faerie dragon the GM used against us. It wasn't hostile, but because it kept following us, solving all the puzzles for us, and taking a cut of the Exp for solving all the puzzles we were basically getting robbed by the thing. And because this creature had enough templates and wizard levels to make it CR22 against a party of average level 3, we couldn't touch it.

So that was our big jerk annoying GM story.
Er, what was the purpose of that? Sounds like a really bad DMPC.

[TheMonocleRogue]

That's why every beholder should enslave war trolls!!

Speaking of which, can a beholder take Ability Focus(eye rays) and have it affect the DCs of all of its various rays?

Eye rays counts as a supernatural ability. So yes, a beholder can have ability focus (eye rays) and gain a +2 DC to all of it's rays.

What would be even more broken is if it had the Agile Tyrant feat from the Book of Aberations so it could hit a single party member with two eye rays at once.

[Phelix-Mu]

But the world shouldn't revolve around the capacity of the characters to handle challenges. I do believe that the game moves at the speed of plot, but if there are shadows in the graveyard and the party goes there unprepared, well, tough. The world is dangerous, and I don't believe that enemies should be put on Easy Mode just to suit the characters. If it makes sense for the enemy to have traps, anti-magic fields, and extensive buffs, I do it. The characters would do it if they were expecting company or had something precious to guard (like their home turf).

Monster tactics should be in-line with their Int/Wis scores, but many would realistically devote substantial resource and thought into home defenses, and the smartest/most-cunning kobold would design the traps, and so forth.

Maybe it's that I come from 2e, where the deck was much more stacked against the party in many cases. But I don't like to mollycoddle my players (triple word score!).

[Zanos]

Yeah except it's vulnerable to everyone's #1 favorite spell, glitterdust which, surprise!, is only a level 2 spell and thus available to a party of 4 encountering it.

With a +4 reflex and no escape artist ranks, Web works too, also:

Daze Monster (specific exemption allows it to affect any living type of monster, so it ignores vermin immunity.

That's just from the wizard spell list. And a melee character has many feat along with possible magic items to deal with the crabs grapple. And if it comes to it, aid another is a thing (and considering this would be a 4 on 1 fight, I don't think it's unreasonable that the players should easily win).
A level 3 fighter is also CR 3. It should have a roughly 50/50 chance of defeating the crab.

This is not the case. This monster is not CR 3. I don't know why you're trying to argue that it is.

[Graypairofsocks]

There is also the Disenchanter (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50158.jpg) (from Fiend Folio), fortunately it is CR 17 so your magic items will hopefully be replaceable by the time you face it.



It's CR 5 and has 12 HD, so no turning for you.

Note that The book of bad latin Libris Mortis states that undead swarms have half the number of HD for the purpose of turning(you also add any turn resistance after this halving).

[Chester]

But the world shouldn't revolve around the capacity of the characters to handle challenges. I do believe that the game moves at the speed of plot, but if there are shadows in the graveyard and the party goes there unprepared, well, tough. The world is dangerous, and I don't believe that enemies should be put on Easy Mode just to suit the characters. If it makes sense for the enemy to have traps, anti-magic fields, and extensive buffs, I do it. The characters would do it if they were expecting company or had something precious to guard (like their home turf).

Monster tactics should be in-line with their Int/Wis scores, but many would realistically devote substantial resource and thought into home defenses, and the smartest/most-cunning kobold would design the traps, and so forth.

Maybe it's that I come from 2e, where the deck was much more stacked against the party in many cases. But I don't like to mollycoddle my players (triple word score!).

I hear you . . . there's a giant difference between a party looking for trouble and a DM who sets up an encounter to fail.

If I DM and the PCs say, "Hey, let's go kill that ancient red dragon," well . . . OK. Bad choice.

If I DM and say, "An ancient red dragon attacks you," that's being a jerk.

I don't advocate "easy mode," I never said that. I say that there's an appropriate way to create a challenge without crippling a party. Challenge = trying to find a solution using the resources at your disposal, not trying to find a solution because your resources have been rendered useless by the DM.

EDIT: Yes, anti-magic fields are a thing. DM shouldn't do it and force the PC's to deal with it. DM should be open to party finding other solutions, not forcing a character into it. Again . . . there's a difference between players making stupid decisions and DMs restricting the options.

[atemu1234]

I hear you . . . there's a giant difference between a party looking for trouble and a DM who sets up an encounter to fail.

If I DM and the PCs say, "Hey, let's go kill that ancient red dragon," well . . . OK. Bad choice.

If I DM and say, "An ancient red dragon attacks you," that's being a jerk.

I don't advocate "easy mode," I never said that. I say that there's an appropriate way to create a challenge without crippling a party. Challenge = trying to find a solution using the resources at your disposal, not trying to find a solution because your resources have been rendered useless by the DM.

EDIT: Yes, anti-magic fields are a thing. DM shouldn't do it and force the PC's to deal with it. DM should be open to party finding other solutions, not forcing a character into it. Again . . . there's a difference between players making stupid decisions and DMs restricting the options.

Good summary. Also, in relation to the crab argument, being able to maybe beat =/= on level encounter.

[Spore]

That thing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/red-jester). Oh gods that thing. /rocks in a corner.

This makes for an honestly cool BBEG imho. Not for open confrontation. Just show up, pull a card, throw it and vanish. You might want to create your own deck of many things for that though since some effects are campaign enders.

[mostlyharmful]

Shadows.

CR3 - Spring attacking incorporeal undead with Strdrain... If you've got a magic weapon, and if you've got a warning and if you've got a team with you... hopefully it'll be only one dead party member. Roll this thing as a random encounter while the party's asleep and you're pretty close to doomed.

Oh, and dead spawn in rounds... which means any running away or NPCs about the place means you're even more doomed.

A CR 3 monster that needs DM hand waving to avoid apocalypsing the whole setting seems a good candidate.:smallannoyed:

[Vedhin]

Note that The book of bad latin Libris Mortis states that undead swarms have half the number of HD for the purpose of turning(you also add any turn resistance after this halving).

I'd like to point out that a rule in a separate book lowering it into the realm of the possible does not speak well of the original balance.

Anyway, he still need a 13 or better (16 Charisma for a 50/50) on the turning check to get rid of it. And it forces a DC 20 save vs nauseated while it's in your square, so he might have to pass that first.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Let's run the numbers. A elf (for dex) fighter/ranger/barbarian (+3 to hit) with 20 DEX (+5), and Weapon Focus(longbow) (+1) (Cause being within 30' for point blank shot is a deat sentence), will hit about half of the time. Let's be extremely generous and say he has 18 STR, and a Mighty (+4) Compound Longbow. He does 1d8+4 on each hit, averaging 9 damage per hit. That's 4.5 damage/round. If all 4 people run this, its 18 damage/round. That does it in 3.611 rounds, which rounds up to 4. That's if all members are running that setup. That's highly specialized, and counts on the crab not killing anyone. Whch, as has been shown, is quite easy for it.

Soooo who wants to help me make an adventure where the world is infested with these crabs and your primary function as an adventurer is to kill these things?

Probably be an e6 adventure ... But yeah crabs everywhere... Highly lethal setting, something ole Gygax would be proud of.

[Shining Wrath]

The beholder can't use its eye rays on creatures within it's anti-magic cone.

Aside from that, the difficulty of the beholder is largely dependent on the DM and the resources the beholder has access to. A well balanced 13th level party can easily take on a beholder even if it has to resort to spamming its eye rays each round.

Believe complaint was in-game mechanics of "is the eye open? my stats just dropped. Oh, the eye's closed? Back to other stats".

[manyslayer]

First, as to rot grubs, the only update I know of for them is the rot grub swarm in Dungeonscape. Descent little swarm. My favorite part of using them is against old-school players who just envision a couple thousand old-style rot grubs.


The monster I will not run in a campaign game (in a one-off, I might but I will have some way to inform the PCs of its ability) is the Abyssal Maw from (surprise!) Monster Manual 2.

For a CR2 it deals 2d8+4 damage for an average of 13. So 1 hit will potentially drop any PC with D8 or less HD to 0 or less hit points. Dangerous, but not impossible to overcome. Then comes its special ability Rend Fallen. Automatically deals 2d8+4 damage to any foe it drops with its bite. Insta-dead PC.

[Shining Wrath]

Aside from Allips and the Grabbin' Crab, both legends for their inappropriate CR, and of course the Rust Monster;

Iron Golem. SR = yes, healed by fire, Con damage every 3 or 4 rounds.

[Darth Paul]

I don't see it necessarily in terms of specific monsters; I see it in terms of specific monsters in relation to the capability of a particular party.

For instance: a rust monster can be a challenge, but a properly equipped party can rise to the challenge.

When a DM's idea of a challenge is "throw something at the party that they can't handle," that's annoying.

When DM makes sure that there are anti-magic fields, etc. and immobilizes the party caster(s), then initiates a battle, that sucks.

When a low-level party has no magical weapons and the DM throws a creature at them that can only be harmed by magic weapons, that's a jerk move.

TL, DR: It's not the monster itself that makes someone a jerk, it's the careful selection of an impossible monster under the guise of "challenge."

But a low-level party has the Magic Weapon spell prepared, because there are monsters with Damage Reduction/+1 and monsters that can only be hit by magic weapons, right? If the spell is available, it is possible to have it prepared; so the monster is not "impossible" to defeat. You also have the option of retreating, resting, preparing new spells, and coming back the next day to kick ass.

Why should players assume the DM is going to tailor the encounters to fit their party, yet not prepare their party to meet as wide a variety of encounters as possible?

[Flickerdart]

there are monsters with Damage Reduction/+1
Not in this edition.

[Necroticplague]

But a low-level party has the Magic Weapon spell prepared, because there are monsters with Damage Reduction/+1 and monsters that can only be hit by magic weapons, right? If the spell is available, it is possible to have it prepared; so the monster is not "impossible" to defeat. You also have the option of retreating, resting, preparing new spells, and coming back the next day to kick ass.

Except many monsters aren't very retreatable. the Crab is faster than most PCs, allips are as fast (except for dwarfs, halflings, gnomes, and dudes in armor, in which case, their faster), don't tire, and can move through objects that you need to move around. And if you do run and prepare, you also give the enemy time to prepare against you.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Not in this edition.

Wasn't that like 2e and 3e? I remember 3e having some wonky DR methods that they changed when making 3.5.

[Cyrion]

Yes, that was in earlier editions, dating back to AD&D. In 3.5 we have DR x/magic in which x is an arbitrary number that is entirely irrelevant after 3rd or 4th level unless the party is running through the dungeon naked.

[gooddragon1]

If the crab didn't retreat and the terrain was with me...

Lvl 1 warlock with spider climb.

Go up a wall. Touch attack has no problem with AC.

[squiggit]

No one ever said you should baby the party. If they don't prepare that's their fault.

That doesn't change the fact that just throwing stuff like this at them out of the blue is still dickish.

If a party of four level 1 fighters wander into "the graveyard where ghosts haunt every blade of grass" that's their fault. But if you throw them in a normal dungeon and sic shadows on them that's not on the party.

[Calimehter]

If it wasn't for Rust Monsters, our group wouldn't have the amusing anecdote about the Dwarf fighter PC who stripped down, oiled up (yep :smalleek: ), and wrestled the thing to death.

As for the thread topic, I'll nominate Pixies. Seems like they are really just there to revel in their various immunities rather than get anything meaningful accomplished.

[Cikomyr]

Holy crap. The monstrous crab is VERMIN, so it doesn't have an intelligence score?!?!

WHAT SORT OF STUPID SILLINESS IS THAT?! You cannot even use Ray of Stupidity on it! :smallmad:

[Vogonjeltz]

Let's run the numbers. A elf (for dex) fighter/ranger/barbarian (+3 to hit) with 20 DEX (+5), and Weapon Focus(longbow) (+1) (Cause being within 30' for point blank shot is a deat sentence), will hit about half of the time. Let's be extremely generous and say he has 18 STR, and a Mighty (+4) Compound Longbow. He does 1d8+4 on each hit, averaging 9 damage per hit. That's 4.5 damage/round. If all 4 people run this, its 18 damage/round. That does it in 3.611 rounds, which rounds up to 4. That's if all members are running that setup. That's highly specialized, and counts on the crab not killing anyone. Whch, as has been shown, is quite easy for it.

Here's the thing, when it's blind it only has a 50% chance of hitting assuming it's even guessing a correct square. And if it's entangled or blind that's still 3 free rounds of hits, and tanglefoot bags are definitely in play with the standard party of Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Wizard.


Daze Monster is still flagged as an Mind-Affecting spell and the giant crab as a vermin is immune to all mind-affecting effects by virtue of its creature type. So no, Daze Monster does not work.

The spell clearly states that it works on a monster of any type, that provides a specific exemption to the immunity. So yes, Daze Monster does work.


You can argue that a level 3 party stands a chance (and of course it does, see below), but I'd encourage you to compare That Damn Crab to a grappler of its own CR (I suggest the Giant Praying Mantis, CR3) and you will see that something very serious is going on.

I'd redirect you to our friend, the Gelatinous Cube. He carries a DC 20 Fortitude save to paralyze a target for 2d6 rounds. Given where it's encountered, and how difficult it is to spot, the cube could theoretically guarantee a party TPK on round 1.

Scenario: Point player does not spot cube and walks into it, automatically being engulfed and paralyzed (so he's grappled). Ooze moves 15 feet automatically engulfing and paralyzing remaining 3 players. Game over man, game over.

And all that just from failing a spot check. Crab at least gives you the opportunity for the other players to do something useful.

The core distinction between the crab and other CR 3's is the number of HD, SRD HD on CR3's hovers around 3 and 4. In fact, it looks like most monsters have HD at or near their CR, which leads me to believe the crab's CR or HD is a typo. Either way, we can recalculate the CR by the standard method on which CR is calculated.

Side note: That crab is an excellent reason to have disposable hirelings/animal companions along with a party to draw fire.

Why did the hero survive? Because his mooks triggered all the instant death situations until it was just him and the big bad.


A level 3 fighter is also CR 3. It should have a roughly 50/50 chance of defeating the crab.

I know people like to trot that out, but it's just not at all what CR indicates. CR is a measurement of the average level of a 4 person party that would find the monster to be a moderate difficulty. Any further attempts at extrapolation deviates so much from what CR actually indicates that it warps any utility.

What's the difference between 1 PC and 4?

4x the action economy, 4x the attacks per round, 4x the available HP, 4x the class features.

The crab is perfectly fine for a standard party of 4 because teamwork will defeat it, in the same way that an Allip is fine for the standard party because a Cleric will, in most cases, make it more likely than not that the party can defeat it.

Are there exceptions? Sure, CR isn't an absolute thing as the rules very well say, but that's where it falls on the party to decide if they are in over their heads.


Shadows.

CR3 - Spring attacking incorporeal undead with Strdrain...

Shadows don't have spring attack, that is only Greater Shadows (CR 8).

Besides which, a 3rd level Cleric can neutralize a shadow reliably, even more easily if they took improved turning and put the requisite 5 ranks in knowledge religion.
Furthermore, two castings of cure moderate wounds will dismantle a shadow (although at 2d8+3 even the first casting can take it down), so the cleric is never defenseless against them.

[Zanos]

Even if we don't assume that a level 3 fighter is an equal match for the CR 3 crab, a level 3 fighter is still considered as difficult an encounter by the system as the crab, and this is still obviously not true.

No matter how you word your argument it is wrong. The crab will cause more fatalities on average than any other printed CR3 encounter and likely more than any CR 4 or 5. Saying "teamwork can defeat it" does not change that it is grotesquely under CR'd. "Requires extensive teamwork and spell selection and knowledge that it will be your opponent beforehand" is not the province of CR = Level encounters, and comparing the crab to other similar monsters only serves to widen the gap.

Also, regardless of the immunity debate, Daze Monster doesn't work on the crab because it has 7 HD.

[Alex12]

Allips are fun.
In the last campaign I was in, we faced one down at party level 3. I, being a necropolitan DN, was completely immune to everything it could do to me. Nobody else in the group was undead, and there were no ghost touch weapons. If I hadn't gotten a good rebuking roll, well, honestly the game would have gone a lot easier for me, since I could just walk around with the allip flailing ineffectually at me until it saw another creature. Also, I could have looted the corpses of my former allies.

[Arael666]

I myself made a monster that I can never use without coming off as a complete douche. A Vampire Nymph is a CR 9 with 33 AC completely nude, over 100 hp, an AoE blind, an at-will stun and dominate, energy drain and casts as a 7th level druid. With a few spells (Barkskin, Cat's Grace) it is easy to get her AC to almost 40. Now I went one step further and gave that build 2 levels of Monk. This brings her to about CR 10 or 11 (depending on how you classify monk as a helpful class to nymph or not) and NPC level gear. Completely nude she has 45 AC, almost 200 HP, her lowest save is a +17 in fort and the DC's of her abilities is a 27. I could never throw this character at a level appropriate group without my players quitting.

Vampire is a template that can only be added to humanoid or monstrous humanoid. A nymph, being a fey, cannot receive te template.

[Zanos]

Vampire is a template that can only be added to humanoid or monstrous humanoid. A nymph, being a fey, cannot receive te template.
Ghostwalk's Monstrous Vampire template was updated for 3.5 and allows Fey. I forget what's different about it, though.

[ShurikVch]

Crawling claw - CR 1/3 suggest you can throw 9 of it against a 1st-level party of 6
It's immune to weapon, targeted spells, whatever constructs immune, and have SR 10

[137beth]

Personally what really annoys me are the handful of monsters which permanently and irreversably reduce the PCs' maximum hp. I think it was from ELH, or maybe BoVD. There should at least be a way to reverse it with Restoration or something.

[Spuddles]

The Monsterous Crab is a CR 3 monster with Improved Grab and a Grapple Modifier of +19. A level 3 fighter with strength 20, will have a grapple modifier of +8.

It's written tactics is to grab someone and then drag them underwater and eat them. Let that sink in.

Yes, however what Fax missed was that the crab tries to fill his crabs and move which applies a -20 penalty to his grappling modifier. The real killer is the absurd constrict damage. A successful hit grapple combo can RNG a one round kill.

[deuxhero]

That thing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/red-jester). Oh gods that thing. /rocks in a corner.

And if you hit it with Command Undead (the spell), it swings around to being wildly broken for the party. Buy a lot of chickens, tell it to attack the chickens with its ability (I'm pretty sure a murderous undead would "normally" attack a helpless creature). At the very worst they gain the service of a level 4 fighter, but most of the time they gain magic items that, being chickens, you can easily "steal", become advanced chickens (but still chickens you can kill easily), befall a terrible fate (but only them, so what do you care), summon a dread wraith (just do this in the sun and its free XP) or get some wishes (which it can't use because it can't talk).

[Socksy]

Someone started a similar thread to this a while back- The most unbalanced monsters for their CR. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?315230-The-most-unbalanced-monsters-for-each-CR-up-to-20-(or-so))

EDIT: Because it's buried near the end of that thread, I'll post the most horrible thing I found here too:
The Vorr from Fiend Folio. Especially against a small party, where it can AoO anyone getting up off the ground and just trip them again.
Also, a CR4 creature should NOT have DR50/+5.

Oh, and it can attack in that form too.

DR. 50. /+5.

[Irk]

I don't think anyone mentioned Drowned yet. Those are brutal. +20 Hide/Move Silently, 150 HP, and that Drowning Aura, which any DM really ought to augment with Ability Focus. All at CR 8. I mean, that Drowning Aura requires a CON check. A CON check! how many parties prepare for that?

If you really want a good opponent though, giving it a level of Warblade provides a level 11 Initiator at CR 9.

Not as bad as a Necrocarnum Zombie Warblade 1 with 34 HD for an Initiator level of 18 and a CR of 12, but still terrifying.

[atemu1234]

I don't think anyone mentioned Drowned yet. Those are brutal. +20 Hide/Move Silently, 150 HP, and that Drowning Aura, which any DM really ought to augment with Ability Focus. All at CR 8. I mean, that Drowning Aura requires a CON check. A CON check! how many parties prepare for that?

Anyone that uses Bear's Endurance, I suppose. But either way, sounds brutal.

[Irk]

The Vorr from Fiend Folio. Especially against a small party, where it can AoO anyone getting up off the ground and just trip them again.
Also, a CR4 creature should NOT have DR50/+5.

Oh, and it can attack in that form too.

DR. 50. /+5.
Actually, that's the Varakhut Inevitable at CR 19, I don;t think even WotC would do a CR 4 creature with Dr 50/+5


Anyone that uses Bear's Endurance, I suppose. But either way, sounds brutal.
The DC increases by 1 every round, and if you fail you immediately go to 0 HP. But Bear's Endurance is a thing.

[Socksy]

Actually, that's the Varakhut Inevitable at CR 19, I don;t think even WotC would do a CR 4 creature with Dr 50/+5


Nope, the Fiend Folio's Vorr has it. It's missing a clause saying it can't actually attack whilst in that form, too.
OMNOMNOM, ANYTHING BELOW ABOUT LEVEL 9.

EDIT: Plus, some copies of the book has it as CR 4 and some has it as CR 9, apparently.

DOUBLE EDIT: I double-checked on some other forums with a quick Google of the 3.0 Vorr, in case my book had a misprint. It doesn't. The thing actually has that DR. At CR 4.

[Irk]

Nope, the Fiend Folio's Vorr has it. It's missing a clause saying it can't actually attack whilst in that form, too.
OMNOMNOM, ANYTHING BELOW ABOUT LEVEL 9.

EDIT: Plus, some copies of the book has it as CR 4 and some has it as CR 9, apparently.

DOUBLE EDIT: I double-checked on some other forums with a quick Google of the 3.0 Vorr, in case my book had a misprint. It doesn't. The thing actually has that DR. At CR 4.
Oh, I missed that bit. Wat.

[Requiem_Jeer]

Well, at least a 3.5 conversion would translate it to DR 15/magic, which is much more manageable...

[Flickerdart]

Well, at least a 3.5 conversion would translate it to DR 15/magic, which is much more manageable...
Still ridiculous, though. A 4th level rogue might be doing something like 1d6 (short sword) + 2d6 (SA) damage - a max damage roll from him will only do 3 damage. And if he doesn't have a source of bonus feats he's only got two, so can't even get Shadow Blade for Dex-to-damage yet. It is conceivable that the rogue might have a +1 weapon, but at 2300gp it's nearly half of his wealth, and unlikely to be something he owns if he's been playing from an earlier level (the standard amount of treasure per encounter for CR4s is 1200, so he'd have to have faced a rich monster with double treasure and gotten lucky on the random roll for the 37% chance at 1 minor magic item, and then had that item be a weapon and not one of a million cheap wondrous items).

So while one character in the party might own a magic weapon by this point, that's all they've got. Meanwhile, no caster has enough slots to be packing much in the way of blasting at this level, so the encounter is basically one guy getting to fight and everyone else spectating. That's the definition of a badly designed encounter.

[Graypairofsocks]

I myself made a monster that I can never use without coming off as a complete douche. A Vampire Nymph is a CR 9 with 33 AC completely nude, over 100 hp, an AoE blind, an at-will stun and dominate, energy drain and casts as a 7th level druid.

How did being nude increase her AC?


Personally what really annoys me are the handful of monsters which permanently and irreversably reduce the PCs' maximum hp. I think it was from ELH, or maybe BoVD. There should at least be a way to reverse it with Restoration or something.

Two undead monsters who do that are in the "Epic Level Handbook", they are the Shape Of Fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/shapeOfFire.htm) and the creature it spawns the Lavawight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/lavawight.htm).

[Flashy]

How did being nude increase her AC?

I think what jguy meant was that the monster had an AC of 33 before factoring in any kind of armor or equipment, rather than that it had nakedness as a power source.

[Dimcair]

- What 3rd level character is going to be able to beat +19 grapple? There are 10th level characters that would lose against that.
[/URL]

-> Conjurer (Teleportation) Wizard ;)

[Socksy]

I think what jguy meant was that the monster had an AC of 33 before factoring in any kind of armor or equipment, rather than that it had nakedness as a power source.

I thought nymphs blinded people with their boobies? That should increase AC, or at least lower attack rolls.

Might ruin the vampiric gaze attacks if people aren't looking anywhere near her eyes, though.:smalltongue::smalltongue::smalltongue:

[Kazudo]

Trap Haunt on a resetting Sepia Snake Sigil trap.