Help creating a PC cohort that is a spy for the BBEG.

[Oryan77]

I have a player that took the Leadership feat. The way I handle it is that he recruits his cohort in-game as he meets various NPCs. When he meets an NPC that he would like as his cohort, I then fully stat-up the cohort and I roleplay the cohort, but he gets the character sheet and he controls the cohort during battles. He also picks daily spells and all that jazz.

It didn't take long at all for the player to get his cohort killed. So now he'll be needing a new one.

This gave me the idea to use his new cohort as a plot device that would fill in all kinds of holes I've been trying to fix in the storyline to the adventure that we just started. I needed a way for the bad guys to get involved with what the PCs are doing with the McGuffin, and until now, I was not fully satisfied with my ideas. This cohort could solve everything and it actually makes the events much more interesting when things become more clear to the PCs.

Here's the deal, I want to use an evil cleric (a dwarf, or a creature that can look like a dwarf 24/7) as the cohort. My intent is not to screw the PCs over (not for the sake of it anyway). I would like to fully use this guy as the players cohort. The player would still run him during combat and have his character sheet. This cohort will want to help the PCs progress with their mission because the more the PCs learn, the more information the cohort can pass along to his BBEG superiors. If the player or other PCs treat him extremely well, I am not against having the cohort change his views and eventually side with the party against the BBEG. I mainly want to use him as a source of information so the BBEG can keep constant tabs on the party.

The only idea I have for this cohort is that he would be great at bluffing, and he wears a Mask of Lies (Magic Item Compendium) to hide his alignment. His introduction to the group is a situation that would tug at the PCs heartstrings and portray him as a victim. He would explain the mask as a shield to cover his disfigured face (I don't see why he couldn't even use the Disguise Self ability of the mask to "show" his disfigured face). He is really a worshiper of Vecna, and his master is a leader of a Vecna cult. Since Vecna is a god of secrets and magic, I see no reason why this evil cleric cohort can't cast spells as if he was a good aligned cleric of Silverbeard. But that is where you come in.

I need a build for this NPC that would allow me to easily pull this off. The more interesting the build, the better. I'm not that knowledgeable with character options, so I would enjoy something unique. Of course it would need to be done in a way that I could make a fake "good" version of his character sheet that the player can use. He would start out as a 4th level cohort and we're using the Pathfinder version of Clerics (Channel Energy), but the game is a 3.5 book only game unless a PF feat benefits Channel Energy. So any other feats, spells, PrCs, races, etc, etc are limited to WotC 3.5 books.

Any thoughts?

[Atnuul]

Never done a spy cohort before, but I did once have an actual PC who was a doppelganger. Much fun.

Never heard of evil cleric (?) with the same spell list as a good one, but I'm also not familiar with PF.

[Starchild7309]

I am not very familiar with Pathfinder, but tell me more about the group. The Mask of Lies thing might be ok for now, but if someone casts Detect Magic it will glow and then people be like, Hey why is your mask magical, also, you have to consider from, a r/ping point of view, these are a group of adventurers who are spending almost every moment together when traveling...at some point the mask has to come off and they will see he is lying about the disfigurement. Since Clerics can be one alignment step off from their Deity why not just make him Neutral? I would make him good at bluff, and diplomacy and all the social skills. At 4th lvl its hard to give him a lot of options, but instead of a cleric check out paizo's inquisitor.

Too much to include in even the spoiler.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor

He is a lil stealthy, gives you the ability to cast some spells, a domain, alignment doesn't have to be same as deity's.

That's the best I can do since I am not very familiar with Pathfinder but good at google-fu.

[Jeff the Green]

A beguiler works well with this.

I would, however, strongly recommend that you reconsider this idea. Leadership is supposed to represent such amazing leadership ability that you attract followers by shear dint of charisma. Any cohort you get from it should be utterly loyal to you, not the BBEG.

Instead, just make the spy an NPC that insinuates himself into the party and actually follow how the feat works and give the player a cohort that's actually loyal to him.

[Atnuul]

Leadership is supposed to represent such amazing leadership ability that you attract followers by shear dint of charisma. Any cohort you get from it should be utterly loyal to you, not the BBEG.

Instead, just make the spy an NPC that insinuates himself into the party and actually follow how the feat works and give the player a cohort that's actually loyal to him.

I have to agree with this. Make the NPC's apparent goals conveniently align with those of the party, just like any other double agent. I'd say keep cohorts in the "willing, sincere followers" category. :smallsmile:

[Mellack]

Also agreeing with the above posters. The player is spending resources, in this case a feat, for some benefit. To have that cohort turn around and work against them by spying would certainly upset me if I were the player. If they instead spent the feat on weapon focus, would it sometimes turn into a -1 instead of a +1?

[Oryan77]

I do thank you for suggesting a Doppelganger. I don't know why I didn't think of that. That makes for a great Vecna cultist!

Really, all I'm looking for are some 3.5 cleric build ideas to help make this work (the player wants a cleric cohort). Unfortunately most of the replies were for everything but that.

My intention is not to screw the PCs over. My purpose is to fill in plot holes and make the game more interesting. The party won't even realize anything is afoul until it is needed as a shocker moment far into the adventure, "Wait, you are WHO?!?" Even then, the cohort could reveal to the BBEG that by that point, he really is the PCs cohort now as he betrays his former master (if the party treated him well).

As long as a PC didn't suffer over it, that seems like a pretty cool revelation to me as both a DM and a player. Whining about what a DM did with a leadership feat/cohort in this manner is along the same lines as a player whining about losing his gear and that being "unfair and less fun". That attitude is not my cup of tea, nor is it how my players are. I'm not interested in defending or debating my choice to muck with a cohort any further than this. I'm also not looking for Pathfinder material unless it is a PF feat that works well with a PF only cleric ability. I'm just hoping for some good ideas from people more creative at character building than I am. :smallsmile:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) would be more fitting for Vecna, and will give him plenty of skill points.

Trickery domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#trickeryDomain) gets him Bluff, Disguise, and Hide as class skills. Also give him Whispered Secrets from RoD p155, the Vecna initiate feat, at 1st level. That makes Spot and Listen class skills, and makes him automatically aware of any attempt to observe him via a Divination (Scrying) effect. It also adds some choice spells to his Cleric spell list (Glibness). I'd always make him one level higher than the PCs think he is, and have that and other choice spells prepared in the slots they don't know about. You can even give him a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Still Spell to use Glibness with no components at all, so there's no chance of them detecting him casting it. Use the spontaneous domain casting ACF in PH2 for Trickery, instead of spontaneously casting inflict spells. Consider giving him the Rebuke Dragons ACF in Dragon Magic instead of the PF Channel Energy, so they won't realize that he channels negative energy, plus it can be used to power divine feats and/or devotion feats.

Consider Knowledge Devotion instead of the Knowledge domain from Cloistered Cleric. The Magic domain is also extremely useful and extremely fitting, as it will allow him to use wands of Wizard spells to buff and crowd control. The Destiny domain in RoD is also superb, and its granted power is basically the Luck domain's ability but it has to be used on someone else. Trickery's spell list is good enough (and he can prepare Cure spells in domain slots with spontaneous domain casting) that you could just give him a devotion feat instead of his second domain. Evil Devotion would give the party DR 2/Good as an immediate action if he's (secretly) 5th level, mark it on his sheet as 'divine resilience' that grants DR 2/- and note its daily uses as one higher than his daily rebuke dragons uses. Don't even write feats on his character sheet unless the players need to know about it.

[Jeff the Green]

I do thank you for suggesting a Doppelganger. I don't know why I didn't think of that. That makes for a great Vecna cultist!

Really, all I'm looking for are some 3.5 cleric build ideas to help make this work (the player wants a cleric cohort). Unfortunately most of the replies were for everything but that.

My intention is not to screw the PCs over. My purpose is to fill in plot holes and make the game more interesting. The party won't even realize anything is afoul until it is needed as a shocker moment far into the adventure, "Wait, you are WHO?!?" Even then, the cohort could reveal to the BBEG that by that point, he really is the PCs cohort now as he betrays his former master (if the party treated him well).

As long as a PC didn't suffer over it, that seems like a pretty cool revelation to me as both a DM and a player. Whining about what a DM did with a leadership feat/cohort in this manner is along the same lines as a player whining about losing his gear and that being "unfair and less fun". That attitude is not my cup of tea, nor is it how my players are. I'm not interested in defending or debating my choice to muck with a cohort any further than this. I'm also not looking for Pathfinder material unless it is a PF feat that works well with a PF only cleric ability. I'm just hoping for some good ideas from people more creative at character building than I am. :smallsmile:

No. If you pulled this I would leave immediately. Losing equipment is a given. Having a feat secretly and unilaterally changed after you take it is not cool, is not fun, and it is not whining to be upset about it. Leadership gives you "loyal companions and devoted followers." Pulling this is roughly equivalent to a player lying about dice rolls, "forgetting" to mark down damage, or lying about what his feat does.

As DM you have near omnipotence over the world, NPCs, and plot. Your players have control over exactly one thing: their characters. They have the right to expect that the rules work as they say and to be notified of houserules.

This is a jerk move.

(Also, no, you don't get to tell us not to give our opinions on whether you should do this. If someone posts asking for advice on how best to build a character to break his DM's game, we refuse to help and we say why. Same deal here.)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No. If you pulled this I would leave immediately. Losing equipment is a given. Having a feat secretly and unilaterally changed after you take it is not cool, is not fun, and it is not whining to be upset about it. Leadership gives you "loyal companions and devoted followers." Pulling this is roughly equivalent to a player lying about dice rolls, "forgetting" to mark down damage, or lying about what his feat does.

As DM you have near omnipotence over the world, NPCs, and plot. Your players have control over exactly one thing: their characters. They have the right to expect that the rules work as they say and to be notified of houserules.

This is a jerk move.

(Also, no, you don't get to tell us not to give our opinions on whether you should do this. If someone posts asking for advice on how best to build a character to break his DM's game, we refuse to help and we say why. Same deal here.)

It looks to me like the players were already aware that Leadership may not function exactly as printed prior to taking it:


I have a player that took the Leadership feat. The way I handle it is that he recruits his cohort in-game as he meets various NPCs. When he meets an NPC that he would like as his cohort, I then fully stat-up the cohort and I roleplay the cohort, but he gets the character sheet and he controls the cohort during battles. He also picks daily spells and all that jazz.

It didn't take long at all for the player to get his cohort killed. So now he'll be needing a new one.

That the player almost immediately got his loyal follower killed may mean that future followers may not be quite so loyal. Plus he meets prospective NPCs that he may want to recruit, then decides whether or not to recruit them. As long as he has a chance to detect the ruse (via Sense Motive, Gather Information, or similar) and as long as the cohort helps the party, I don't see an issue with this. He even said that depending on how it's played the cohort may end up becoming a Ser Jorah Mormont.

[Oryan77]

......lots of great suggestions......
Those are fantastic suggestions! Exactly the sort of stuff I'm looking for. I'm not familiar with any of that, so I'll look into it. But it sounds really good. Thank you so much.


No. If you pulled this I would leave immediately.And I would hold the door open for you as you leave. You obviously wouldn't fit in with our group. It's no skin off my back.


Your players have control over exactly one thing: their characters. They have the right to expect that the rules work as they say and to be notified of houserules.If you bothered to comprehend my first post, I explained how the Leadership feat is heavily houseruled in my game (more how it is used than it is mechanical). This player knew this going into it and is completely accepting of it. So you are right, they have control over their character. Unfortunately, a cohort is an NPC at our table, not their character. It's a houserule that I found solves a lot of problems that come with letting abusive players use the Leadership feat.


This is a jerk move. (Also, no, you don't get to tell us not to give our opinions on whether you should do this.
Comprehension is key to a conversation. I said I won't be defending myself. I never said you can't give your opinion. I just asked that we stay on topic so I can get some constructive replies and because I'm sure you have better things to do than argue an issue with me when it won't convince me otherwise whatsoever. But by all means, if you like wasting your time, then continue on...

[Oryan77]

As long as he has a chance to detect the ruse (via Sense Motive, Gather Information, or similar) and as long as the cohort helps the party, I don't see an issue with this. He even said that depending on how it's played the cohort may end up becoming a Ser Jorah Mormont.
Yes, I try not to railroad anything in our games. If he doesn't take the guy on as his cohort, so be it and I'll figure things out from there. But that doesn't mean the NPC isn't going to try and manipulate the situation to get the PC to take him on as a cohort. That's why I'm posting here. The NPC is trying to cover all his bases so that he makes an appealing cohort for a leader to have. The build suggestions you guys give will help make this happen.

[AvatarVecna]

Messing with Leadership has to be done very carefully. In a game where the players just wanna beat stuff up, it should probably be disallowed, since it can easily overpower characters. In a story driven game, where the player is less likely to raise an army on a whim, Leadership can be the mechanic behind the wonderful story element.

Did someone really compare this to reversing Weapon Focus?! Leadership is by far the most easily abused, OP feat in them game. Complaining about Leadership getting nerfed is like complaining about the DM using fiat to counter your infinite wish strategy: sure, it's breaking RAW, but for the good of the game, and no one but you and the other munchkins are going to cry over it.

This could be a very interesting story idea: if the cohort eventually renounces their dark master in favor of the PCs and a new god, it could be worth it. If the cohort betrays them, another would replace it, and would need a good in-game reason for doing so. The PCs would get paranoid, which is really fun if they're up to it.

My suggestion? Don't just build a cohort that worships the god of secrets while pretending to worship someone else: give them some character.

For some RP inspiration, look at KoTOR 2:

One the one hand, you have Visas Marr, apprentice to a Sith Lord; your first meeting is when she tries to kill you. She serves you loyally, and eventually turns on her old master, although she isn't trusted until after she's done so. She's powerful in the dark side, but can learn the power of the light with your help.

On the other hand, you have Kreia: an old woman who speaks in wisdom-laden riddles who's never pleased by anything. This Sith Lord of betrayal has an issue with her eyes (possibly blind) and had her hand cut off by her traitorous apprentice. Throughout the whole game, she manipulates everyone she comes across, using their secrets, their fears, and their hate to maneuver them like chess pieces, all to achieve her goals. And she's trusted, to an extent, right up until she betrays you and tries to kill the force. Visas Marr sounds like your cohort idea; Kreia doesn't just sound like Vecna, she may as well BE Vecna, they're so alike.

If you have the time, look for some good videos of these two character's best moments; it could really help.

[Oryan77]

My suggestion? Don't just build a cohort that worships the god of secrets while pretending to worship someone else: give them some character.
I am trying to give this cohort character and not just providing an npc with stats, which is one reason I thought of using the Mask along with some tale of woe to go with why he wears it. A "cool" character is the sort of cohort that this player would prefer to recruit. So a guy with a mask and a sad tale to go along with it is the sort of thing that this player might latch on to. I really like the idea of using a Dopplelganger for this, so I may not need that specific mask, but I may still have him wear a magical mask because I think it would make him more interesting.

I'm not familiar with the KotOR 2 game, so I'll look for some videos. Visas Marr does sound just like what I'm trying to do with this cohort. I would not mind getting character ideas to go along with the character build. So by all means, if you have any specific ideas, shoot them my way.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm not familiar with the KotOR 2 game, so I'll look for some videos. Visas Marr does sound just like what I'm trying to do with this cohort. I would not mind getting character ideas to go along with the character build. So by all means, if you have any specific ideas, shoot them my way.

I found a nice conversation with Visas and Kreia that bring out a good bit of their character; it's almost 21 minutes, but if you've got the time, it might be good inspiration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8qXlUpJBR4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLoWb8KXvVo

As for specific ideas? It all depends on why exactly the cohort is travelling with the party. Could you elaborate on the situation?