How to make a PC that gets equipped to another PC?

[Vorandril]

So my googlefu has come up with some results for this but I wanted to get to the specific nitty gritty of my concept here just to be sure.

For this brain-stretching exercise
1. Reflavoring something's fluff is perfectly acceptable.
2. Total ECL cannot be higher than 4 (If that's not doable then the lowest it can happen to be)
3. Nothing from Tome of Battle or Incarnum.

The concept: A character that is a (relatively) benign symbiotic entity that relies on its host to survive. I would LIKE to be able to progress in class levels, but I would like to gather us as many possibilities for how to make the concept work.

The Symbiotic template doesn't really fit because that is pretty much a Tauric creature with commitment problems. The way that it simply mashes the abilities of two into one (with swapping stats around) doesn't quite appeal.

Possession was one thing I've seen mentioned many times, and I'm curious what would be the lowest level(Or cheapest gold) way to do so. Also limitations on what sorts of abilities that could be used while possessing someone.

Playing an Intelligent Magic Item. This one feels like it would be the most appropriate. I was considering the idea of using the Weapons of Legacy book as a sort of "class" for it. The only concern would be how it might affect the DM in regards to balancing encounters.

Thoughts?

[EDIT: As a DM or player, what would be your concerns balancing this character?]

[Kaeso]

First of all, I'd like to suggest an alternative that already popped up once or twice around these boards: why not try a gnome tinkerer who creates a battlesuit? That battlesuit could be played (and perhaps even roleplayed) as a warforged.

As for your ideas, if I were a DM I'd think the intelligent magic item would be fun. I'd balance it by merely substracting the cost of the item from the characters (future) WBL. But it seems fun, especially since it can make the campaign more "deadly": if the "character" dies, the item simply has to wait until some other poor schmuck picks it up from the dirt. PCs become disposable because they're not the ones being played, the One Ring is.

Speaking of the One Ring, it even sounds cool to make an evil campaign centered around the intelligent magic item. I'd allow a player to play one.

[DeadMech]

I think I tried to run something like this in a homebrew game once. When one set of players would play shape shifting intelligent items and the other group playing their wielders. It never got off the ground for some reason or the other which wasn't uncommon for my group at the time. Thought it was a long time ago so I can't remember specifically. Could have been lack of interest from competing games, could have been players unable to synergize like I had hoped.

As far as D&D is concerned though something like this would probably throw off the action economy pretty badly. So you would have to alter what you throw at the party that is tough enough to deal advantages in stats or abilities the players gain but weak enough that the players being short one action a round can overcome.

[the_other_gm]

The Fiend of Possession PRC does that to some extent.

[Vorandril]

I have been pondering more along the lines of; My character being the one that helps by being equipped by another Player's character. I've been leaning more towards trying the "Item" route simply because to be honest? You can reflavor an item extremely easily. Venom from Spiderman could be considered a Wonderous Item considering it can't do much of anything without a host to "use" it.

I've also looked over the Fiend of Possession, but being a PRC makes it kinda difficult to get set up before level 5 or 7.

[Chester]

Might something like the Tsochari (Lords of Madness) be what you're looking for?

[Vorandril]

*Steeples fingers and smiles slowly*
Yessss, actually. This is quite close to the initial concept. As a creature I could not have to homebrew up how I'm advancing in levels.

You wouldn't happen to know where to find a "Tsochari as PC's" information?

[Chester]

*Steeples fingers and smiles slowly*
Yessss, actually. This is quite close to the initial concept. As a creature I could not have to homebrew up how I'm advancing in levels.

You wouldn't happen to know where to find a "Tsochari as PC's" information?

I'm pretty sure it's covered in Lords of Madness, but alas, I don't have the information directly in front of me.

[Bronk]

You could ask if you could instead play an awakened animated object.

A sword would be either small or tiny... You would still be usable as a sword, and maybe even upgraded as a magical weapon eventually. However, as yourself, you would only be able to make slam attacks, so that you wouldn't be super powerful as a lone fighter type.

You could then take a psionic class of some kind to make up for not having any hands and not being able to speak.

[Vorandril]

Hmm. The awakened item also has quite a lot of merit to it, like how I was pondering the weapon of legacy as an intelligent magic item.

Unfortunately it looks like the Tsochari would have a ludicrous LA, but I'll see what my DM would be willing to pick and choose on. If anyone has suggestions for how to make them usable within ECL4 or 5 that would be cool.

[the_other_gm]

There is no set of particular rules for playing a tsochari as a PC in LoM. You can sort of guesstimate it's abilities/score whatnot.

at it's core, it looks to be a 4HD small aberration with stat bonuses of: +2 +8 +6 +4 +4 +2

it's main combat abilities are improved grab (only useful with it's tentacles) and poison (dex damage on a failed save). it also has constrict which may or may not be useful when possessing a body, depending on how the GM adjudicates it's use.

it also has 100ft telepathy and racial bonuses to climb & UMD.

it's ability to "wear flesh" causes one of two things to happen to a helpless creature:
1-the victim is kept alive and takes 1d3 con damage per day, and the tsochar can live indefinitely inside the victim as long as it's alive. the tsochar can take no physical action while inhabiting a host but can take purely mental ones. you also take half of the damage your host takes.

2- you have a flesh puppet for up to a year or until you wear out it's con score at 1d4 per month. use it's physical scores instead of yours.

honestly speaking, if you're playing a tsochar and you're playing as a friendly tag-a-long to a host, unless you're casting all your spells via still spell & silent spell, you're probably not doing much but using telepathy to talk with people during the game.

it's really not a player-friendly race.

[Vorandril]

Dvati wouldn't work because unfortunately the other PC's are already made and in the campaign.

So I suppose the biggest question now becomes; How would one balance/set up the ability to allow progression for an intelligent item? Class levels seems off because one wouldn't get more HD as a cloak or sword.

[Prime32]

There's a way to do it in Pathfinder. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=13719)

[Jeff the Green]

Unfortunately it looks like the Tsochari would have a ludicrous LA, but I'll see what my DM would be willing to pick and choose on. If anyone has suggestions for how to make them usable within ECL4 or 5 that would be cool.

There's an app monster class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9226721&postcount=48) for that!

[Nettlekid]

You said the other PCs are already in place, but if they weren't, then if one of them was an Elemental Scion of Zilargo and you were some kind of larger Elemental (perhaps by taking some template or PrC that changes your type), they could fuse with you.

Or perhaps you could play a Glimmerskin (from MMII), either as a character (ECL 16 so maybe not), a caster using Shapechange, or an Egoist Psion with Metamorphosis and Metamorphic Transfer. They can merge with another creature, giving that creature Fast Healing and access to the Glimmerskin's feats.

[toapat]

Ubermount paladin for all intents and purposes is a halfling amulet on the neck of a dragon.

[Vorandril]

There's an app monster class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9226721&postcount=48) for that!

Huzzay!

Now just for the sake of thoroughness; any suggestions for setting up the progression as an intelligent item?

[Vorandril]

So after some more browsing to try and find a way to make an Item as the actual player character there's one thing that I keep feeling I need to come back to;

Weapons of Legacy.

It seems that the easiest way to approach the topic is to generate the character as an intelligent weapon of legacy.
As such, the PC loses out on HD, BAB, and the ability to use other equipment. This sucks.
But this can be balanced by an idea I had a few minutes ago; If we assume that as an OOC decision the PC-Item gets its share of the goldz, allow it to spend its WBL on improving itself as though it had a full suite of magic item slots available. All these enhancements would reside in the one item (don't get kidnapped! Er, stolen?) and give them a full repertoire of abilities to choose from, eventually propelling the item into Artifact levels of power. Additionally the Weapon of Legacy powers being applied by levels would help offset the lack of class abilities.

With this set up, the only thing I'm not sure about would be skill points.

[Nettlekid]

So after some more browsing to try and find a way to make an Item as the actual player character there's one thing that I keep feeling I need to come back to;

Weapons of Legacy.

It seems that the easiest way to approach the topic is to generate the character as an intelligent weapon of legacy.
As such, the PC loses out on HD, BAB, and the ability to use other equipment. This sucks.
But this can be balanced by an idea I had a few minutes ago; If we assume that as an OOC decision the PC-Item gets its share of the goldz, allow it to spend its WBL on improving itself as though it had a full suite of magic item slots available. All these enhancements would reside in the one item (don't get kidnapped! Er, stolen?) and give them a full repertoire of abilities to choose from, eventually propelling the item into Artifact levels of power. Additionally the Weapon of Legacy powers being applied by levels would help offset the lack of class abilities.

With this set up, the only thing I'm not sure about would be skill points.

What if...You had a 27th level character who had the Epic Destiny (http://lonelygm.blogspot.com/2011/02/epic-destinies-for-d-35pathfinder.html) Artifact Lord, took a ton of negative levels shortly before death, get killed and activate the Soul Transfer ability, then fail all those saving throws and get drained down to the level you'll start at. (Also it gives you amnesia! Who were you? Who killed you? Who knows! One day maybe you'll find the statue of yourself.) You'll still be a character, presumably with HD and feats and skills and everything, but you'll be an item. When you level up you'll "regain" the lost levels, which can just have been what you want to build the character into anyway.

[iceman10058]

What if...You had a 27th level character who had the Epic Destiny (http://lonelygm.blogspot.com/2011/02/epic-destinies-for-d-35pathfinder.html) Artifact Lord, took a ton of negative levels shortly before death, get killed and activate the Soul Transfer ability, then fail all those saving throws and get drained down to the level you'll start at. (Also it gives you amnesia! Who were you? Who killed you? Who knows! One day maybe you'll find the statue of yourself.) You'll still be a character, presumably with HD and feats and skills and everything, but you'll be an item. When you level up you'll "regain" the lost levels, which can just have been what you want to build the character into anyway.

this, i like this

[bekeleven]

I had an idea where 3 PCs were a Symbiotic Dvati, 1 was a fiend of possession, 1 was haunt-shifted into some equipment and another was wild shaping into an animated object. Never played it, sadly. Tried to incorporate multiheaded, but by strict reading the template doesn't add actions, only breath weapon attacks.

[ShurikVch]

Looks like I a bit late, but still:
Tauric whatever/helltick. This way you will be symbiont, and still playable.

[ahenobarbi]

I have been pondering more along the lines of; My character being the one that helps by being equipped by another Player's character. I've been leaning more towards trying the "Item" route simply because to be honest? You can reflavor an item extremely easily. Venom from Spiderman could be considered a Wonderous Item considering it can't do much of anything without a host to "use" it.

I've also looked over the Fiend of Possession, but being a PRC makes it kinda difficult to get set up before level 5 or 7.

It should be easy. Neraphim are [evil] outsiders with 0LA, you can get +5 base will save in 3 levels by multiclassing classes with good will save.

If I remember correctly you can meet skill rank requirements at that point too.

relevant hanbdook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7518.0)

[Azraile]

You could play a small warforged that has had this addaptation built in:


Construct Limb

Requirements: Craft Construct, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, animate objects, Small or Tiny construct

CR increase: none

Cost: 27,000 gp

This modification can be performed on a Small or Tiny construct, such as an iron cobra or a homunculus. The creator modifies the construct such that she can slip it over her arm and control its actions as part of her own. The construct limb retains any melee attacks that the construct has, and the creator can use special attacks as if she were the construct (using the construct’s attack statistics and effects), but treat the creator as the creature making attacks for the purpose of determining attacks of opportunity and other actions that could be triggered by an attack made by the creator.

The limb also provides the wearer with limited protection in combat, roughly equivalent to that of a heavy steel shield. The wearer is considered proficient in this shield. The wearer retains the remainder of her abilities.

A construct limb counts as a heavy steel shield for purposes of determining AC, weight, Dexterity modifiers to AC, and chance of arcane spell failure.

There are plenty of awsome small races you can take that could do this... ones that would look badass as a sheild/balde

Paticuarly anthromorphs... they have CRAZY will mods if you want a mecha CoDZIILA


Anthropomorphic Bat: -4 Str +6 Wis -2 Cha, small, 5 ft. (fly 20 ft. average), blindsense (ex), druid, monstrous humanoid, savage species pg.215
Anthropomorphic Lizard: -4 Str +2 Dex +4 Wis -4 Cha, small, 20 ft., druid, monstrous humanoid, savage species pg.215
Anthropomorphic Monkey: -4 Str +2 Dex +4Wis -2 Cha, small, 30 ft., druid, monstrous humanoid, savage species pg.215
Anthropomorphic Rat: -4 Str +2 Dex +4 Wis -4 Cha, small, 15 ft., rogue, monstrous humanoid, savage species pg.215
Anthropomorphic Raven: -6 Str +2 Dex +4 Wis -4 Cha, small, 10 ft. (fly 30ft. poor), rogue, monstrous humanoid, savage species pg.215
Anthropomorphic Toad: -4 Str -2 Dex +6 Wis -2 Cha, small, 5 ft., cleric, monstrous humanoid, savage species pg.215
Anthropomorphic Weasel: -4 Str +2 Dex +4 Wis -4 Cha, small, 20 ft., attach (ex), druid, monstrous humanoid, savage species pg.215

My sugestion.... go anthromophic bat warforged with ironwood body and make it a druid with the construct limb upgrade feat

Iron wood body:
Unlike most feats, this feat must be taken at 1st level during character creation. A warforged with this feat who then takes Improved Damage Reduction (see page 55 of the EBERRON Campaign Setting) can choose to gain damage reduction 1/adamantine or improve the damage reduction granted by this feat by 2. Unlike the Adamantine Body and Mithral Body feats, warforged druids who take this feat can cast druid spells and use the druid's supernatural and spell-like abilities.

Benefit

Your armor bonus increases to +3 and you gain damage reduction 2/slashing. You are considered to be wearing light armor, and have a +4 maximum Dexterity bonus to AC, a -3 penalty on all skill checks to which armor check penalties apply (Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, Swim, and Tumble), and an arcane spell failure chance of 20%.

[Azraile]

+6 wisdom, blind sight, Darkvision out to 60 feet, and all the bonuses of being warforged and you still get wildshape and druid spells......

Sure -4 str sucks.... but you can wildshape so it don't matter!

and when your not wildshaped you can attach to some ones arm and be there weapon.... and still cast spells and use magic for them..... awsome....

EDIT... and yes I have considered doing this myself >.>

[Biotroll]

It should be easy. Neraphim are [evil] outsiders with 0LA, you can get +5 base will save in 3 levels by multiclassing classes with good will save.

If I remember correctly you can meet skill rank requirements at that point too.

relevant hanbdook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7518.0)

Neraphim are just outsiders, they don't have [evil] subtype (or any subtype at all). You could get one with ritual from Savage Species iirc, but it was costly and you could get it with your own WBL by level 10 or so. Can't remeber and I don't have the book in front of me.

With the base will and skill requirements, you are correct. You can get both by 3rd level. So if your DM is willing to slide the [evil] requirement, you can get in at lvl4. There was also feat (Otherworldly) in some Faerun book, that gives you outsider type, still no [evil] subtype.

[ahenobarbi]

Neraphim are just outsiders, they don't have [evil] subtype (or any subtype at all). You could get one with ritual from Savage Species iirc, but it was costly and you could get it with your own WBL by level 10 or so. Can't remeber and I don't have the book in front of me.

You're right. They don't have [evil] subtype.

Divine minion of an evil god will be [evil] outsider for +1 LA (which can be bought off by level 4).


Thanks for spotting my mistake!

[Vorandril]

Someone suggested Ghostwrack as a resource. I don't have it with me but does anyone know what might be pertinent in there?

That way when I call my friend who's borrowing it I can point them to the right spot.

[Necroticplague]

Someone suggested Ghostwrack as a resource. I don't have it with me but does anyone know what might be pertinent in there?

That way when I call my friend who's borrowing it I can point them to the right spot.

A bunch of ghost feats focus around possessing other people. It starts with you impotently just sticking around in one subject of a specific type, not influencing actions. More feats let you influence them, posses a wider variety of creatires,posses corpses and get them to move around, and even posess multiple people at once.

[Vorandril]

A bunch of ghost feats focus around possessing other people. It starts with you impotently just sticking around in one subject of a specific type, not influencing actions. More feats let you influence them, posses a wider variety of creatires,posses corpses and get them to move around, and even posess multiple people at once.

O_O

This is perfect...
Now to just see about having my DM allow me to use them in a (houserule probably) corporeal way so that I'm playing as a still living thingie that infests people... *strokes beard* Yessssss.....

Necroticplague, you are an awesome. https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/6255995648/hCF3F78E3/

[Azraile]

Aw I thought my idea of an equiptable warforged was neat

[Vorandril]

Aw I thought my idea of an equiptable warforged was neat

It's very neat! I just can't afford that on a ECL 4 or 5 character. =P

[Azraile]

Sure you could....

warforged are a LA +0 template
The ability to turn into a weapon/shield LA +1

Then you just need to pick a small race with a LA of 2~3 or less, there are a LOT of them.

EDIT - and actualy the anthromorphic bat is LA +0 to

so a warforged anthromorphic bat that can turn into a bladed shield lached and wraped around some one's arm would be LA +1

[Vorandril]

You said the Cost was 27,000 gp though, right?

[Azraile]

To get the upgrade after char creation

to start with it you would just gain a HD so you would have LA +1

lol gnomes are small..... the idea of a gnome jumping (humping) some ones arm then there back opening up into a shield and a katar shotting out of there ass.... is just..... *snorts* XD

[bekeleven]

I thought I knew warforged but this thread is full of people referencing a warforged template. What's it from?

[snailgosh]

warforged are a LA +0 template

Aren't Warforged a LA +0 Race, not a template?
Combining Warforged with Anthrobat sounds questionable...

swordsage'd

[Azraile]

Blarge there was something for warforged as diffrent races other than just generic humanoid..... I just can't find them now....

x.x

Still you can use the monster PC rules to play living construct of some sort.

[Vorandril]

So looking back at the Intelligent Item rules. It says they count as creatures (Constructs) since they have int/wis/cha.

So does that mean they can gain HD? From Class levels? How does one rationalize this? Because if there's something there that makes sense... I may have overlooked the single simplest way to go about this.

this is related to your idea for the modification.

[Necroticplague]

So looking back at the Intelligent Item rules. It says they count as creatures (Constructs) since they have int/wis/cha.

So does that mean they can gain HD? From Class levels? How does one rationalize this? Because if there's something there that makes sense... I may have overlooked the single simplest way to go about this.Technically, yes, but that way lies a lot of madness and rules headaches. Such as: do they use HP from their HD, or from their status as an item (meaning you use material+thickness)?

And the fact the LA for an intelligent item isn't given. And the fact that since the sum of its mental ability scores gives a lot of benefits, how does this interact with the INT gain from level up? What item slots do they, themselves have?

Though if you do go that rought, psionics would be a good class option, since it requires no components, and its easy enough to pass the check to hide manifestations.

[Vorandril]

So here we go then. I'm gonna try and rationalize a terrible terrible rabbit hole here. And I apologize if this is about to get kind Homebrewy but bear with me.

Intelligent Items are constructs. (Established)
Warforged are Living Contructs.

With Living Construct as a Subtype we could functionally take any golem and simply say, "Annnnd they made a warforged one of these at some point" and slap it silly by applying the subtype without having to change the constructs LA/CR.

Correct?

[Azraile]

If the GM is cool with it yah.

Sorry I can't find that page though, I'm rather certen there is a template out there for it though.

[Necroticplague]

I think their is a template in magic of incarnum that can turn a construct into a living construct. Doesn't solve the problem of golems not having a LA to start with. Simply slapping the living subtype actually would probably drop the CR, since it adds vulnerabilities it didn't have before.

[Vorandril]

Yeah, I spent 2 hours after that post hoping someone somewhere had made a generic golem thing so that construct could be playable aside from Warforged.

So since it looks like no matter what there's going to be some degree of homebrewing for this concept I'll go ahead and call it for now.

In the spirit of "Keep it simple, stupid" I just sent my DM a message asking if he was willing to reflavor a feat from Ghostwalk. Ghost Ride lets you possess someone for a limited amount of time. Requires Wis 11 and Incorporeality.
If he's willing to wave the incorporeal aspect then I should be golden.

[Azraile]

What class are you shooting for? and what level?

[Azraile]

and what small race would you want to play if you did go the equiptable shield/blade golem?

lol What humanoid race would you like your transformer to look when he's not equipment.

(and if you GM dose accept the idea you have to make the trasformer sounds atleast once durring the campain >.> lol)