Mystic Theurge Necromancer - Do they get additional undead?

[Malaqai]

Hi all. I've been playing around with a MT necromancer concept for my Pathfinder campaign. Does the Animate Dead spell consider the MT's arcane and divine caster levels as separate for the purpose of determining how many undead he can raise?

[Serafina]

It's the same spell, its source - arcane casting, divine casting, spell-like ability, magic staff or whatever - doesn't matter.
If you want more undead, all of the following stacks:
- Animate dead, obviously. The Agent of the Grace PrC can increase your control limit.
- Use the Command Undead channel feat to control them via channeling negative energy. You can control undead you release from your Animation-limit this way.
- Use the Command Undead spell to control them. This way you can theoretically control an unlimited amount of undead, in practice you are limited to however many 2nd-level spells you want to cast since the spell has a time limit.

For the purpose of sheer number of controlled undead, a Cleric who takes the Command Undead feat and can cast Command Undead (seriously why do those two have the same name...) is the best option.
First you animate them via Animate Dead. If they are low-HD minions, they go into the feat-control-pool. If they have a high HD, they go into the spell-control-pool. Plus whatever you keep in your animate-control-pool.
Effectively you get your level x5 in Undead-HD plus a few powerful ones that way.

[stack]

I thought you got max hd with a juju oracle into agent of the grave. Don't have the math on me though. Oracles get better channel dc's too, when they can channel.

[grarrrg]

For the purpose of sheer number of controlled undead, a Cleric who takes the Command Undead feat and can cast Command Undead (seriously why do those two have the same name...) is the best option.

Command Undead (spell) is only on the Wiz/Sorc list.
The only domain to get it is Law>sub>Inevitable (Law? what?), and even then it's as a 3rd level spell.
Due to the Arcane/Divine divide Samsaran is not an option.
Most options will result in a "+1 to spell level" making it a 3rd level spell.

Leaving the two "best" options as High CHA > Imp. Eldritch Heritage > Arcane Bloodline.
And Agent of the Grave for INT=# off list Necromancy spells.


I thought you got max hd with a juju oracle into agent of the grave. Don't have the math on me though. Oracles get better channel dc's too, when they can channel.

Juju (and Bones) Oracles both have a Command Undead (feat/channel) Revelation option.
Juju's have a nice revelation for 6=hd level of minions.
All levels of Agent of the Grave count double for minions, but only has 4/5 casting.
15*6 + 5*8 = 130

And Oracles are CHA based, which helps the Channel DC's, and gives an easier entry into Eldritch Heritage (if desired) than Clerics.
And if taking Agent they can also just add it to their list (same level as Imp Heritage oddly enough).

[Serafina]

Taking two feats to get the Command Undead spell is perfectly viable for a decidated Necromancer-cleric though. It can easily multiply the undead-HD you can control, at least if you work with high-HD undead (which you should). And Charisma is useful for channeling which a Necrocleric can make good use of.

Another option would be the Dreamed Secrets (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dreamed%20Secrets)feat from Inner Sea Gods. It has a significant risk (DC 20 will-save or take 1D2 wisdom damage) - but you have good Wisdom, a good Will-save and access to Restoration. And you will mostly use Command Undead during your off-days anyway, given its day/CL duration.


And yes, forgot that there also some channel-options for Oracles.

[Magesmiley]

I think the point that the OP is getting at is that the animate dead spell refers to caster level for determining the number of undead that can be controlled. I don't have my Pathfinder book handy, but I know that 3.5 does refer to caster level (and I think that it is the same for Pathfinder). What isn't necessarily clear is what caster level the spell is referencing for the limit of the undead. If you're wizard/3, cleric/4, mystic theurge/5, what is the caster level used for determining the limit? There are arguments for several different values for this character.

Option 1:
Keep the different caster level pools for controlling undead separate. (In my example, it would total to 68 HD of undead.) The argument here is that you have different caster levels for each class.

Option 2:
Use the character's highest caster level for determining the maximum number of undead that can be controlled. (In my example it would total 36 HD of undead.) While not precisely per the rules as written, this is kind of a simplification of Option 3.

Option 3:
Check the maximum undead controlled based on the caster level of the spell you're currently casting. (In my example it would flip between 32 and 36 HD of undead, depending on what class's spell cast it last) This is kind of strange that your cap flip-flops, but is arguably an exact reading of the spell.

In my games, I generally allow option 1, as I feel that the others grossly penalize dual class characters. But that's my games. Strictly speaking the third behavior is the most correct one per the RAW, even if it is a tad bit odd.

[Diachronos]

RAW, it seems like you would get two sepatate pools, one for arcane spells and one for divine spells.

I feel like it would have to be the DM's call considering the wording isn't clear, but that it would at least go off the higher caster level if the DM doesn't allow them to stack.

[Malaqai]

Thanks for the responses guys. It seems that it's pretty open to interpretation, and since Mystic Theurges are awful otherwise, I'm going to go ahead and let 'em have the extra undead. It'll give my Bad Guy a few more undead to play around with should the party accidentally (or by design, knowing my chaos muppets) wake him up.

[grarrrg]

So assuming you get different control pools then...
Aasimar (or other race with necessary Arcane Spell-Like)
Juju Oracle 4/"arcane" 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Agent of the Grave 5 (not necessarily in that order)

Apply Agent of the Grave to Oracle casting.
Spirit Vessels actually applies to _all_ class casting (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9ne8).
Oracle casting 18
"arcane" casting 11

"arcane" is a simple 11*6 for 66hd of Undead.
Agent of the Grave counts double (and as per the text the 'non caster' level counts double as well), so 'effective' Oracle level is actually 24. 24*6= 144
144 + 66 = 210hd of Undead.

Did I miss anything?


Taking two feats to get the Command Undead spell is perfectly viable for a decidated Necromancer-cleric though.

I assume you mean Imp Eldritch Heritage, which would be three feats.

The following isn't directed at you specifically, it's just stuff that bothers me:

Why does it seem like everyone ever forgets about the Skill Focus requirement for Heritage?
And to follow that, it seems like everyone is always saying "Half-Elves get the requirement for free!". Which, while technically true isn't very accurate.
Yes, they get Skill Focus for free, or they could trade it away for something potentially more useful.

And it's always the Half-Elves, Humans are never mentioned, they get a free _any_ feat that could be "the requirement for free!".

Heck, there's an Alt-Racial to trade the _one_ bonus feat that Humans get and receive _three_ Skill Focus feats instead! Why does no one ever mention that?

[Malaqai]

I think we can get that max HD a bit higher:

Dhampir
Wizard 4/Dual-Cursed Oracle 1/MT 10/Agent of the Grave 5

Dhampir Favored Class Bonus: +1/4 to Wizard's Necromancy CL

Using Oracle of Wood (Our Necromancer has led a very confused life) to grab a Divine Level 2 SLA and a feat to grab the Spirit Vessel revelation, you get yourself to 266HD.

And since we're speaking of feats . . .

With Spell Specialization, Mage Tattoo, Undead Master, Trait: Signature Spell, Gifted Adept: That's +9 to CL to both pools netting you an extra 108 HD to control for a total of 374 HD; use of Death Knell gets you another CL, and you're up to 386 HD. Stick the Graveknight template on there, and you're up to 486 HD of commanded undead. Now that's an army.

[grarrrg]

Using Oracle of Wood (Our Necromancer has led a very confused life) to grab a Divine Level 2 SLA and a feat to grab the Spirit Vessel revelation, you get yourself to 266HD.

There is no way to grab an off-Mystery Revelation (at least not without going to 3rd party).

[Malaqai]

There is no way to grab an off-Mystery Revelation (at least not without going to 3rd party).

I'm not sure why I thought Dual-Cursed let you access two mysteries. Weird. Thanks for the correction! Still, that's a theoretical cap of 280HD of controlled dead before applying the Graveknight template, which is nothing to sneeze at.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You get one pool. It's the same spell. It's not the spell's fault you chose to lose some CL, and there is a trait and a feat (if 3E is allowed) to nullify most/all of the effective CL loss.

Animate Dead is already a great spell, giving a double pool of HD is just completely uncalled for and broken, not to mention against the RAW of same source.