Help with archery (3.5e)

[gilgil808]

Hey guys, I've got a few questions to ask today.

First of all about optimizing my current character. Right now im playing a wood elf level 11 ranger. Yeah 11 levels in ranger i didnt really know what PRC i should take and every time i saw one i liked i didnt meet the prequisits and by the time i got them i didn't want that PRC anymore so...

Anyways my stats are:
STR 16
DEX 26
CON 10
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 7

My main weapon is a +3 C. Longobow (+3 STR) which i use mainly with normal arrows but sometimes with +1 arrows, and my secondary weapon is a rapier.

Im wearing an enchanted celestial armor (+8 ac outputs 8 dex), Emerald hood (+4 hide, +2 to hit), Eye of the Eagle (+5 spot), Cloak of resistance (+2 for saves) and gloves of DEX +4.

Feats I've taken: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (C.LB) and Iron Will.
Favored Enemies: Outsider (Evil) +6, Elementals +2, Outsider (Native) +2.

Skills (ranks):
Craft (Alchemy) - 4 (I should retrain this cause I'm not using it at all)
Craft (Bowmaking) - 4 (took that when i wanted to take Peerless Archer as my PRC - yes its 3e but my DM allowed it)
Handle Amimal - 4
Hide - 5
Knowledge (Geography) - 4
Knowledge (Nature) - 5
Listen - 12
Move Silently - 7
Ride - 1
Search - 12
Spot - 10
Survival - 5
Use Rope - 2
Skinning (DM's addition) - 2

Money: 110PP, 10424GP, 9CP and x11 1000GP worth gems, although I'm not sure if ill be able to buy items soon because of where we are in the story.

Well, right now my biggest problem is dmg reduction cause all of my dmg splits between 3 arrows so its x3 dmg reduction.
What would you recommend doing to optimize or at least make my character better?

The second question is about a PRC. My DM recommended me taking +1 INT next level (we get +1 for 2 stats per 4 levels) and taking a wizard/sorcerer level then taking Arcane Archer levels. This PRC does have some cool features but I'm still not sure about doing that.
Before that I thought about taking Peerless Archer but i didn't like the idea of 2sp/level, and before that i was thinking about Deep Wood Archer and I don't remember what but something made me think about it again. Would you reccomend taking Arcane Archer? or some other PRC?

I also thought about making a backup character in case my current character dies. I really like the archery style and I ran into a suggestion to be a zen archer cleric and I liked the idea so i started looking at builds and suggestions and things although I didn't find many of those. What i did find was taking 1st, 3rd and 5th+ levels as cleric with war/elven domain, and 2nd and 4th levels as a ranger but I didn't quite like the idea of it because it seems to me like more of a cleric than a ranger although I've never played a spellcaster and I'm not familiar with the war/elven domains so it might be really strong without me knowing anything about it. Would you recommend this combintaion at all? and this level order domain etc? I'd be happy if you could send me a guide or build you think is good even if it has this level order but preferably with more ranger in it unless its weaker and I'm just being stupid.

[Vhaidara]

3 levels in scout (http://dndtools.eu/classes/scout/) and pick up Swift Hunter (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/swift-hunter--2868/). Following recommendations are based on this. My advice would be to retrain 2 levels of ranger into scout and grab the feat at level 12, since you want this online fast.

If possible, retrain lower favored enemies into Undead and Construct (if using swift hunter, it lets you skirmish them). Grab a Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker (Magic Item Compendium, lets you move half speed as a swift action 1/day) and Travel Devotion (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-champion--57/travel-devotion--2966/). Retrain Iron Will into Improved Skirmish (Iron Will is bad, Improved Skirmish is amazing)

Get Hank's Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a). This item is amazing. Grab the Splitting enchantment, which lets you get 2 shots per shot (works with Manyshot for MANYshot). You pop Chronocharm or Travel Devotion and fire off like 10 2d6 arrows with +5d6 each from skirmish. Oh, and it gives you +5 AC.

[Runeclaw]

One of the drawbacks to archery, and why it's hard to keep it relevant at higher levels, is that it's hard to add much damage to it, compared to Melee.

Swift Hunter is good, but getting it online quickly would require a generous amount of retraining from your DM. And then it leaves you with needing to find ways to get 10' movement and a full-attack in order to really capitalize (hence the item and devotion feat recommended). Sparring Dummy of the Master is the ultimate way to achieve this, but will require either a level of Monk or a series of difficult UMD rolls to use). The nice thing there is that it's an item you only need to use once but isn't consumed, so you can resell it and recoup half your money. Much discussion here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-153629.html) (and many other places).

Adding some energy damage to your bow would give you a little extra damage per hit and, because it was energy damage, it would bypass DR. Crystals can be a good way to achieve this because they are cheaper and you can get a couple so you can swap them out based on targets' resistances.

If your DM would allow you to import the feat Deadly Aim (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat) from Pathfinder, that would help a lot!

Order of the Bow Initiate (3.0) has some nice features, but the prereqs are unattractive.

There aren't any really good answers.

[Trundlebug]

Retrain. Archery suffers from DR. Mitigate that. Honestly a swift hunter build is more flavorful than straight ranger. Explore your character.

[Vhaidara]

Oh, and Oriental Adventures presented the ruling that a DC 40 Tumble check enabled you to take a 10ft step instead of a 5ft step. While not the easiest thing to get, +39 to Tumble will do you a lot of good. My advice would be to use your scout levels to pump it, giving you +15 from ranks (I'm putting you at 12 when this happens), +8 from Dex is 23. Now, getting 16 may sound hard, but a +2 synergy from 5 ranks in Jump lowers what you need to +14.

Now, the DMG has rules for magic item creation. One of these rules is that skill boosters cost (bonus) squared x 100 (referenced to the Cloak of Elvenkind to prove). That means a +15 item costs 22500. You have 22524gp value. This makes both Travel Devotion and the Chronocharm redundant.

[gilgil808]

3 levels in scout (http://dndtools.eu/classes/scout/) and pick up Swift Hunter (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-scoundrel--60/swift-hunter--2868/). Following recommendations are based on this. My advice would be to retrain 2 levels of ranger into scout and grab the feat at level 12, since you want this online fast.

If possible, retrain lower favored enemies into Undead and Construct (if using swift hunter, it lets you skirmish them). Grab a Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker (Magic Item Compendium, lets you move half speed as a swift action 1/day) and Travel Devotion (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-champion--57/travel-devotion--2966/). Retrain Iron Will into Improved Skirmish (Iron Will is bad, Improved Skirmish is amazing)

Get Hank's Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a). This item is amazing. Grab the Splitting enchantment, which lets you get 2 shots per shot (works with Manyshot for MANYshot). You pop Chronocharm or Travel Devotion and fire off like 10 2d6 arrows with +5d6 each from skirmish. Oh, and it gives you +5 AC.

Well thank you for the suggestion, but I've got some problems with it.
First of all and I think the most important one, I once talked to my DM about it and he said he will not allow shooting more than 1 arrow with skirmish (not sure it includes the splitting enchantment) but manyshot rapidshot and such wont work with it because I need a full round action to shoot 3 arrows. Also my base movment is 30 feet and to get to use improved skirmish I need to move 20 feet and Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker would only give me 15 feet of movment though im not sure my DM will allow me to use it and shoot more than one arrow a turn, also he does not allow Travel Devotion. Another thing is, I didn't understand what does the caster level means on the Chronocharm Of The Horizon Walker's page (http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/chronocharm-of-the-horizon-walker) and Hank's Energy Bow's page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a). Does it mean I need to be at that caster level to use it? cause if so I cant use Hank's Energy Bow because ill be level 9 ranger which is caster level 5.
Second, we have a scout too so I'm not so exited about playing another one with scout combination although if it will help I might do it.
And I had a third thing to say but I already forgot what it was so ill edit it in if I remember.

[Vhaidara]

The CL is for making the items. And why shouldn't you be allowed to do multiple shots with skirmish? Rogues can multiproc sneak attack, and skirmish is SA but less damage anyways. He is right that you can't multiproc it from Manyshot with Improved Manyshot, but that's because that's what Improved Manyshot does.

Your speed would be 40 if you took the 3 levels of scout, since scout gives fast movement.

[gilgil808]

The CL is for making the items. And why shouldn't you be allowed to do multiple shots with skirmish? Rogues can multiproc sneak attack, and skirmish is SA but less damage anyways. He is right that you can't multiproc it from Manyshot with Improved Manyshot, but that's because that's what Improved Manyshot does.

Your speed would be 40 if you took the 3 levels of scout, since scout gives fast movement.

But then without the feat you suggested i can only do full round action with skirmish once per day so thatll be 6 arrows with the improved skirmish dmg which is a lot but once per day.
I don't really know why he doesn't allow it i think it seems to him a bit overpowered that i can do full round action and shoot even 3 arrows with the skirmish bonus for 10 rounds.

[Vhaidara]

Oh, and Oriental Adventures presented the ruling that a DC 40 Tumble check enabled you to take a 10ft step instead of a 5ft step. While not the easiest thing to get, +39 to Tumble will do you a lot of good. My advice would be to use your scout levels to pump it, giving you +15 from ranks (I'm putting you at 12 when this happens), +8 from Dex is 23. Now, getting 16 may sound hard, but a +2 synergy from 5 ranks in Jump lowers what you need to +14.

Now, the DMG has rules for magic item creation. One of these rules is that skill boosters cost (bonus) squared x 100 (referenced to the Cloak of Elvenkind to prove). That means a +15 item costs 22500. You have 22524gp value. This makes both Travel Devotion and the Chronocharm redundant.

I think you missed this, which eliminates the need for Travel Devotion and the Chronocharm. And your friend's scout can make use of this as well.

[Irk]

Look at these:

Piggy Knowles' Archer Build Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?284283-Piggy-Knowles-Archer-Build-Thread)
Ranger Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4621)

Those ought to help.

[gilgil808]

I think you missed this, which eliminates the need for Travel Devotion and the Chronocharm. And your friend's scout can make use of this as well.

I've seen this but I didn't quite get it. Isn't tumble an action that doesnt let you do a full round action after it? or does it just use the tumble check to let you do a 10ft as swift?

[Vhaidara]

You know how you can take a 5ft step every round? DC 40 Tumble check lets you replace it with a 10ft step.

[gilgil808]

You know how you can take a 5ft step every round? DC 40 Tumble check lets you replace it with a 10ft step.

I see, but then it's only the regular skirmish bonus so should i take the improved skirmish? or do you have any other feat to suggest instead? maybe Swift Hunter right away? and if so what should i take next at 12?
Edit: also what happens if you fail the tumble check? can you resume the turn normaly? or do you lose your swift? or something else?

[SirKillalot]

Pick the 'Sense Weakness' feat from Draconomicon. Cuts into DR by ignoring the first 5 points

[Vhaidara]

You need to have +2d6 skirmish to take Swift Hunter, so unless you can retrain, you can't take it at 12.

Improved Skirmish can still be helpful if you need to move more than 10ft, and you can still grab the Chronocharm. Also, once you get Improved Manyshot, your GM has no right to deny you skirmish on each shot, since that is literally the text of Improved Manyshot. You get to apply precision damage to each shot in your volley.

[gilgil808]

You need to have +2d6 skirmish to take Swift Hunter, so unless you can retrain, you can't take it at 12.

Improved Skirmish can still be helpful if you need to move more than 10ft, and you can still grab the Chronocharm. Also, once you get Improved Manyshot, your GM has no right to deny you skirmish on each shot, since that is literally the text of Improved Manyshot. You get to apply precision damage to each shot in your volley.

Thx for the help, now i have a huge list of things i need to ask my DM lol and that would be only next week. If I have more quistions after I talk to him I'll ask here again.
Also, do you have an opinion on the Archer Cleric?

[Vhaidara]

I've never had any experience with them. I know Swift hunter pretty well because Scout is one of my favorite classes, and I have a friend running a Swift Hunter.

I know cleric is useful for swift hunter builds that don't dump Cha, because you dip a level of Cloistered Cleric and trade out to get Knowledge Devotion (trading out a domain that isn't Knowledge), Travel Devotion, and the Knowledge Domain (gives you knowledges as class skills)

[Irk]

Also, do you have an opinion on the Archer Cleric?

The Cleric Archer (Clarcher?) is really only one level of cleric. Traditionally, it goes Cloistered Cleric 1/Soulknife 2/Soulbow 1/Full BaB class 4/Shiba Protector 1 with the and Knowledge Domain switched out for Knowledge Devotion. The feat Zen Archery insures that each mind arrow deals 1d8+2(WIS) and the attack rolls is 1d20+2(WIS).

Ideally, the build would be Cloistered Cleric 1/Soulknife 2/Soulbow 1/Ranger 6/Scout 1/Shiba Protector 1 with the feats, Knowledge Devotion (Domain), Zen Archery, Rapid Shot (Ranger), Manyshot (Ranger), Point Blank Shot, Greater Manyshot, Alertness, and Improved Skirmish. Each arrow would deal 1d8+4d6+2(WIS)+5(Knowledge Devotion). You can shoot of two arrows with Greater Manyshot, Splitting turns that into 4. Lets assume your WIS is 22 for a +6 bonus. That's 1d8+17 on each arrow without skirmish. I don't know what the DR is, but that ought to get through. SirKillalot's suggestion for Sense the Weakness is a good one, and can still fir into the build probably, as you still have three feats available if you can take flaws. It is also important to note that this build is level twelve, and is not even the optimal configuration. There are probably better options, but this one should suffice.

[gilgil808]

The Cleric Archer (Clarcher?) is really only one level of cleric. Traditionally, it goes Cloistered Cleric 1/Soulknife 2/Soulbow 1/Full BaB class 4/Shiba Protector 1 with the and Knowledge Domain switched out for Knowledge Devotion. The feat Zen Archery insures that each mind arrow deals 1d8+2(WIS) and the attack rolls is 1d20+2(WIS).

Ideally, the build would be Cloistered Cleric 1/Soulblade 2/Soulbow 1/Ranger 6/Scout 1/Shiba Protector 1 with the feats, Knowledge Devotion (Domain), Zen Archery, Rapid Shot (Ranger), Manyshot (Ranger), Point Blank Shot, Greater Manyshot, Alertness, and Improved Skirmish. Each arrow would deal 1d8+4d6+2(WIS)+5(Knowledge Devotion). You can shoot of two arrows with Greater Manyshot, Splitting turns that into 4. Lets assume your WIS is 22 for a +6 bonus. That's 1d8+17 on each arrow without skirmish. I don't know what the DR is, but that ought to get through. SirKillalot's suggestion for Sense the Weakness is a good one, and can still fir into the build probably, as you still have three feats available if you can take flaws. It is also important to note that this build is level twelve, and is not even the optimal configuration. There are probably better options, but this one should suffice.

Thx for the suggestion, I really liked it but is Soulblade an SRD class? or homebrew? because my DM doesnt allow homebrew classes.

[Vhaidara]

Soulknife is a psionic class, so it actually is on the SRD. It does not actually involve the use of any psionics. And Soulbow is a PrC from Complete Psionic.

[Vaz]

He means Soulknife.

[Snowbluff]

The lower-optimization version of the Swift Hunter would use Improve Manyshot with Improved Skirmish.

I like to add poisons.

Then you add the Deadeye feat from Dragon Compendium.

[ShurikVch]

DEX 26
Take one lvl dip in Targetteer, with Hit-and-Run Tactics, and Dead Eye (http://dndtools.eu/feats/dragon-compendium--109/dead-eye--3345/) feat
This way you can get up to 24 damage to each attack

Also, apply Blister Oil to your arrows :smallwink:

[gilgil808]

Take one lvl dip in Targetteer, with Hit-and-Run Tactics, and Dead Eye (http://dndtools.eu/feats/dragon-compendium--109/dead-eye--3345/) feat
This way you can get up to 24 damage to each attack

Also, apply Blister Oil to your arrows :smallwink:

I couldn't find anything about the Targetteer and the Blister Oil. Can you explain them shortly to me?


Soulknife is a psionic class, so it actually is on the SRD. It does not actually involve the use of any psionics. And Soulbow is a PrC from Complete Psionic.


The Cleric Archer (Clarcher?) is really only one level of cleric. Traditionally, it goes Cloistered Cleric 1/Soulknife 2/Soulbow 1/Full BaB class 4/Shiba Protector 1 with the and Knowledge Domain switched out for Knowledge Devotion. The feat Zen Archery insures that each mind arrow deals 1d8+2(WIS) and the attack rolls is 1d20+2(WIS).

Ideally, the build would be Cloistered Cleric 1/Soulblade 2/Soulbow 1/Ranger 6/Scout 1/Shiba Protector 1 with the feats, Knowledge Devotion (Domain), Zen Archery, Rapid Shot (Ranger), Manyshot (Ranger), Point Blank Shot, Greater Manyshot, Alertness, and Improved Skirmish. Each arrow would deal 1d8+4d6+2(WIS)+5(Knowledge Devotion). You can shoot of two arrows with Greater Manyshot, Splitting turns that into 4. Lets assume your WIS is 22 for a +6 bonus. That's 1d8+17 on each arrow without skirmish. I don't know what the DR is, but that ought to get through. SirKillalot's suggestion for Sense the Weakness is a good one, and can still fir into the build probably, as you still have three feats available if you can take flaws. It is also important to note that this build is level twelve, and is not even the optimal configuration. There are probably better options, but this one should suffice.

Apparently my DM doesn't allow psionic classes.. He says if we want to play psionic classes he will get psionic enemies and no one in my group wants that so.. I need other way to build it..
I should have asked before building the full character :smallannoyed:

[ShurikVch]

I couldn't find anything about the Targetteer and the Blister Oil. Can you explain them shortly to me? Targetteer is a Fighter variant from Dragon #310. Can take special abilities instead bonus feats, and one of those abilities is
Vital Aim: The Targetteer may add his Dexterity modifier to his damage rolls with a ranged-weapon attack instead of his Strength bonus. The Targetteer cannot replace a Strength penalty to damage rolls with his Dexterity modifier unless his Dexterity modifier is also a penalty. The Targetteer cannot use his Dexterity modifier to replace his Strength modifier when attacking creatures immune to critical hits.
Blister Oil is a misc. gear from Races of Stone (15 gp per vial).
Once applied, it remains effective for 2d4 hours. Each vial of blister oil contains 1d8 applications.
When the oil touches bare skin, the victim must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to avoid painful red blisters that spring up on the affected area of skin, dealing 1d4 points of damage per application used. In addition, the victim takes a –2 penalty on Dexterity-based checks, including Reflex saves, for 2d4 days. Magical healing applied to this damage removes the blisters and the penalty. Natural healing can remove the damage normally, but the penalty on Dexterity-based checks remains until magical healing is applied or the 2d4 days elapse.

[gilgil808]

Targetteer is a Fighter variant from Dragon #310. Can take special abilities instead bonus feats, and one of those abilities is
Blister Oil is a misc. gear from Races of Stone (15 gp per vial).

Well if i got it right i need to take a fighter level to get the Targetteer and I'm not sure how worth it it will be.. Also the Blister Oil would probably be almost useless in my case.. my DM's avg roll is around 17-18 so even without the fort bonuses..
Edit: But I think I'll replace my Iron Will with Dead Eye. I wanted to replace this feat for a long time I just didn't know what to replace it with so thx :D.

[ShurikVch]

Well if i got it right i need to take a fighter level to get the Targetteer and I'm not sure how worth it it will be.. It will be worth up to 16 damage per arrow: 8 from Vital Aim (unless immune to critical), and 8 from Hit-and-Run Tactics (flat-footed opponent within 30 feet)

[gilgil808]

It will be worth up to 16 damage per arrow: 8 from Vital Aim (unless immune to critical), and 8 from Hit-and-Run Tactics (flat-footed opponent within 30 feet)

Is this (http://www.thirteen10.com/the6elements/setting/additional/Variant%20Fighters.pdf) what youre talking about? cause if so I don't see Hit-and-Run there (at the beggining i thought you meant skirmish so i didnt ask). Also I will ask my DM about this thx.

[Vhaidara]

Hit and run is from Drow of the Under dark. Note: does not actually require Drow.

[ericgrau]

Swift hunter for skills while still keeping ok damage, or fighter levels for pure damage or a mix of both. Ranged weapon mastery, requiring 4 levels of fighter, is especially nice. You'll get around +30% damage, plus another ~+20% from the two pre-req feats. Improved rapid shot is nice too. Carry around cold iron, adamantium and silver arrows to overcome DR. Plus any knowledges your allies don't have to identify which metal you need for a monster's DR. A Holy bow is nice too. Boots of speed are awesome for the free action haste.

Try get to 24 hours of greater magic weapon from an allied caster for both attack bonus and damage. For dungeons flame arrow and heroism are nice too. If you can't get GMW or if flame arrow/heroism frequently take its place and you can't get all 3, then arcane archer is actually worth it. In spite of getting sneared at under the assumption of GMW access. It's at least better damage-per-fight than most cleric archers.

I think a good blend if you start over or retrain would be 4 levels of fighter, ranged weapon mastery, improved rapid shot, then go into swift hunter from there. Travel devotion is a good way to get skirmish damage. Try to beg or trade for buffs. Clerics look way better on paper than in practice, because you can't attack when you're buffing and you get terribly shorted on feats and all archery build tricks. Only looks good compared to core-only NPC warrior 20 which isn't a fair comparison.

[Regissoma]

Alright it seems people have been suggesting the swift hunter build and I also agree this is one way to go. For overcoming DR get a Hank's Energy Bow or any bow for that matter and add on Force to automatically ignore any DR outside of DR/force. Once you get enough money add Splitting to it sure lots of money but hey double your damage output. If you are doing the one arrow gets skirmish point out Greater Manyshot, Skirmish is like SA it applys to any attack you have so long as it has its own attack roll. Move your movement needed to activate skirmish, Greater Manyshot person in face, get skirmish to each arrow while overcoming DR from the force enchantment on your bow. If anything ask your DM for a Dark Chaos Shuffle to retrain if you paid for the services.

Other things you should look into as a ranger:
Quiver of Plenty from Dragon Compendium infinite mudane arrows; can select between steel, cold iron, and silver; 5 arrows/day can be adamantine
Remeber there are some really fun tricks with arrows when you enchant them:
Binding - enchant this +1 enchantment on a group of 50 arrows; what it does: Binding - once per day you can activate a binding weapon, if you hit the target with this actiavated it pretty much Dimension Locks them no save.
Lucky- just like binding; but once per day can reroll your attack roll as a free action; imagine this on an enchanted bundle of Binding arrows for a second chance to hit

Edit: Force is a +2 enhantment from MIC

[gilgil808]

Well.. I asked my DM about any of the combindatios to get the skirmish bonus to more than one arrow and he wouldnt allow it even if I got greater manyshot. Just on one arrow..
So what I was thinking was to get the Dead Eye feat instead of Iron Will (My DM said he will allow it but it will remove the Composite affect when in range).
He does not allow Targeteer too. He allows Hank's Energy bow, but it won't overcome DR and and the DMG will star 1d8 the arrows will be +1 and the price will change (I guess it'll cost more).
He still recommends going Arcane Archer. He also said that with a special permission I can retrain one full level but not on a regular basis.
He also said he will allow splitting enchantment but I will need to choose between its effect: Adding 1 arrow OR Each arrow has 50% chance to split (which also gets better by the time i get mor arrows). I will need to choose one and that will stay for the enchantment, or i can pay a +4 price and get to choose every shot.

So what I will do is: Replace Iron will with Dead Eye, get Splitting enchantment (I think 50% to split is way better) and maybe listen to him and take some levels as a wizard and then take Arcane Archer although im not so exited about doing that.
If I got the math right, and assuming I hit with all of the arrows I shoot (which happens most of the time), I'm able to shoot 9 (avg) arrows per 2 turns, and do 9*(1d8+3(enchantment)+8(dead eye if in range)/2 per turn which is about 74 dmg per turn. Let's say the DR is 10 so it'll be around 30 dmg per turn which isn't the best but it is better than what it was.. maybe it's the best in my case.

Also I'll need to find some other way to build my backup character because psionic classes arent allowed :smallfrown:.

[Irk]

Well, if your DM insists on Arcane Archer, You could probably put it to better use than skirmish. Arcane archer is a good dip class for 2 levels, which would allow you to vary your affect on combat without losing the archery combat style. Things like Deep Slumber and Bestow Cruse could make for interesting barrages.

Lets look at the backup character. Yes, it is unfortunate you can;t sue psionics, but this opens up an entire other array of options.

Arrow Mind

Arrow Storm
Arrowsplit
Bloodfreeze Arrow
Brilliant Energy Arrow
Celerity
Exacting Shot
Golem Strike
Grave Strike
Guided Shot
Hunter's Eye
Swift Haste
Shadow Arrow
Sniper's Shot
Spellslayer Arrow
Sure Strike
Vine Strike


If you can find a way to sue these spells in conjunction with Zen Archery and Shiba Protector, you can launch extremely powerful arrows with a bonus to attack equal to 2xWIS and a bonus on damage equal to WIS.

[gilgil808]

Well, if your DM insists on Arcane Archer, You could probably put it to better use than skirmish. Arcane archer is a good dip class for 2 levels, which would allow you to vary your affect on combat without losing the archery combat style. Things like Deep Slumber and Bestow Cruse could make for interesting barrages.

So should I take 4 level as a Wizard (to get Bestow Curse) and then 2 as Arcane Archer?

[Irk]

So should I take 4 level as a Wizard (to get Bestow Curse) and then 2 as Arcane Archer?

Not necessarily Bestow Curse, try to find some strong spells that you like and then take enough levels of Wizard and then two of Arcane Archer. For instance, Shivering Touch is quite a strong one.

[ShurikVch]

And what's about the Hit-and-Run Tactics? Is it forbidden too?

If you will go Arcane Archer, maybe better to use Duskblade (http://dndtools.eu/classes/duskblade/) as entry class? Full BAB, armored casting... (The other possible variant is Knight of the Weave (http://dndtools.eu/classes/knight-weave/))

P.S. There is Cragtop Archer (http://dndtools.eu/classes/cragtop-archer/) PrC. Maybe not a superb, but still somewhat interesting (Arcing Shot + Horizon Shot)

And try to get a Dragonbone Bow: +20' range increment for mere 100 additional gp

[gilgil808]

And what's about the Hit-and-Run Tactics? Is it forbidden too?

If you will go Arcane Archer, maybe better to use Duskblade (http://dndtools.eu/classes/duskblade/) as entry class? Full BAB, armored casting... (The other possible variant is Knight of the Weave (http://dndtools.eu/classes/knight-weave/))

P.S. There is Cragtop Archer (http://dndtools.eu/classes/cragtop-archer/) PrC. Maybe not a superb, but still somewhat interesting (Arcing Shot + Horizon Shot)

And try to get a Dragonbone Bow: +20' range increment for mere 100 additional gp

I'm not sure about the Hit-and-Run Tactics but I'll ask.

What I think I'll do is retrain 1 Ranger level and get Duskblade instead then continue untill 15 (5 levels of Duskblade to get quickcast and 2nd level spells) then start getting Arcane Archer. The Duskblade could be useful ofr me because I'm using Celestial Armor so I won't have the failure from the first level of duskblade and of course full BaB.

Also range is really not a problem right now in any sort of way and the terrain is always flat and sometimes there are no higher terrains I can use so i don't think the Cragtop Archer or the Dragonbone Bow will help me that much.

[Kennisiou]

If doing the duskblade/arcane archer thing, I honestly suggest that you look at this build (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=4vb03k2126bsgoiu5ebq82iha5&topic=525.msg69667#msg69667). It does things pretty effectively as a switch-hitter. I kind of have a minor gripe with it in that I feel the build would be better as duskblade 13/arcane archer 2/abjurant champion 5 since arcane archer's class features are all pretty mediocre except for imbue arrow. (The static arrow enhancement bonus is also nice, but it's a class feature that's replaceable via the spell greater magic weapon -- a nice gravy ability but if it's a class's second best feature there's no real reason to be excited).