3.5e There has got to be some way to make this mixed-style thing work.

[Aetolus]

The possibility of making a useful crossbow user always seemed so tempting, but always turns out so terrible. Even more attractive is the idea of a smooth operator with a hand crossbow in one hand and a rapier in the other, but that's probably the worst weapon style permitted in the game.

I had a little bit of inspiration reading how Lightning Maces (Feat, CW)and Weapon Aptitude (Warblade, ToB) interact. Usually people use that for double scimitar builds, but, RAW, it works with ranged weapons. Hand Crossbow Focus also works with Weapon Adaptability, RAW, to let you make iteratives with a heavy crossbow, too.

I don't really know where to go with this, but I feel somewhere in these discoveries is viability in a weird Blood in the Water crit monster that uses a crossbow and a rapier in concert. There's enough boosts and stances in ToB to make ranged tactics viable, and just a spoonful of more vanilla maneuvers would make the Weapon Finesse rapier viable too. The adaptability to make full attacks with either or both to fuel every-turn Warblade boosts seems like it makes the whole style worthwhile.

It'd be a pretty sweet looking full attack to stab with the rapier, maybe crit to fuel blood in the water, sudden leap away, shoot 2-3 (4?) times, maybe crit to fuel blood in the water and to get another shot. There's a lot going on here.

Feats like Knowledge Devotion that synergize with Int and benefit all weapon styles seem good - I don't really know.

I'm looking to make a nice tier 4 build that is usable at level 1, matures early doesn't go crazy with the multiclassing.

What's everyone thinking?

Any WOTC official content, dragon compendium, yes, but not individual issues.

[Kazudo]

usable at level 1

Woah. Back up there. How usable do you want it? You will not, I repeat, will NOT be able to get a lightning aptitude maces trick going AND Knowledge Devotion AND get half-decent TWF by first level. Not only that, but WBL at 1st level might actually shoot you in the foot (pun intended) as well, since at best you're having to provide two weapons with total +2 enhancements, and at worst you've still having to provide a rapier, a crossbow, ammunition, and potentially armor and other viable necessities.

[Aetolus]

Woah. Back up there. How usable do you want it? You will not, I repeat, will NOT be able to get a lightni...

Obviously the full capability of the build won't be online at level 1. The build just needs to function in some role at level 1. If it's just Rogue 1 with twf and two daggers, that's fine. If it's Rogue 1 with maximize spell and combat expertise, that's not really great.

Maybe "useful", and not "usable," is how I should have phrased it.

[WeaselGuy]

Well, if you go human rogue at level 1, I would probably take hand crossbow focus and versatile combatant, then weapon finesse at 3, and being on my phone with a short attention span I cant do much after that lol... but at least at level one you can shoot and stab in the same turn and reload freely.


Ok, so, I jotted some stuff down, lemme know how I did...
Human Rogue 1/Hit and Run Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 1/Warblade 5/Fighter +2/Disciple of Dispater 8/??? 1...

Versatile Combatant and Hand Crossbow Focus at 1, Combat Reflexes at 2, Weapon Focus (Mace) and Knowledge Devotion at 3, Weapon Finesse from Swashbuckler at 4, Lightning Maces at 6, Disciple of Darkness and Stone Power at 9 (bonus feat from Warblade 5), Combat Expertise at 11 (bonus Fighter feat), Improved Critical (Rapier) at 12, and i guess Point Blank Shot at Precise Shot at 15 and 18, respectively...

[Segev]

Well....

A human fighter or psychic warrior at level 1 can pick up:

Point Blank Shot
Quick Draw
Two-Weapon Fighting


If you're willing to suck a -4 penalty to hit, you have two light crossbow shots per round, and Quick Draw lets you draw two more pre-loaded crossbows next round. Rig them to straps that hang from your cloak or stand on a wagon that holds them for you.

At 2nd level, he can pick up Rapid Shot. This increases his penalty to -6 to hit, but he now can fire 3 light crossbow bolts per round. (If you can swing EWP for Hand Crossbows, your penalty drops to -4.)

Assuming you can manage to overcome the to-hit penalties, that's pretty scary for a low-level crossbow user.

As you increase in level, invest in Spell Storing crossbow bolts. 50 of them for the price of one spell-storing weapon, and you can get your party wizard to stuff Combust into them for (CL)d8 fire damage per bolt on a hit. Don't forget to get him to Haste you, as well, for still another attack/round.

[Aetolus]

Versatile combatant is insanely well suited to this build - wow.

Taking the second level as Swashbuckler would give weapon finesse at level 2. Since warblade is mandatory, int synergy is welcome, but I'm not sure it's wortwhile to go to Swashbuckler 3...

The build seems like it synergizes well with poison, and poison use comes easy with Drow Rogue, is it worth losing the much needed feat from human?

[WeaselGuy]

Point blank shot would probably be useful, dunno how useful after 12 though... also edited my post with more detail

[Kazudo]

is it worth losing the much needed feat from human?

Probably not. This is a feat-heavy build and likely has no room for such shenanigans, though it could dip into something later that grants it.

EDIT:

Point blank shot would probably be useful, dunno how useful after 12 though... also edited my post with more detail
Point blank shot would be nice, hand crossbows have small range increments, also it's a prerequisite for PRECISE SHOT. Which is NECESSARY unless you like eating a -4 penalty for firing into combat alongside the dual-weaponry penalties.

[123456789blaaa]

The possibility of making a useful crossbow user always seemed so tempting, but always turns out so terrible. Even more attractive is the idea of a smooth operator with a hand crossbow in one hand and a rapier in the other, but that's probably the worst weapon style permitted in the game.
<snip>


Ta-da!:


You could take some ideas from akal saris' The sword and crossbow character.

"The Sword & Crossbow
This is a character I designed for the GITP forums to effectively fight with a sword in one hand and a crossbow in the other, but it makes pretty effective use of poisons.

Kalimor Srune'lett, NE Half-Drow Fighter 1/Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 14/Swordsage 2
Actual levels: Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 1/Rogue +1/SB +1/Rogue 1/SW +14
ACFs: Drow swashbuckler 7, Drow Rogue 1, Drow fighter 1 (All from Drow of the Underdark), Spell Sense (C. Mage Rogue 3)
Note: suffers from multi-class penalties - sorry, there's no avoiding this if you actually use those in your game.

Total BAB: +18, total sneak attack: 9-11d6+20 per hit, total HD: 15d10+3d6+2d8

Stats: 32 PB
Str: 12
Dex: 18
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 8
Cha: 8

Feats:
1st: Versatile Combatant (DoTU)
1st flaw: Point Blank Shot
1st flaw: Precise Shot
2nd bonus SB: Weapon Finesse
3rd fighter: Crossbow Sniper (PHB II)
3rd: Hand Crossbow Focus (DoTU)
6th: Daring Outlaw (C. Scoundrel)
9th: Craven (Champions of Ruin)
12th: Improved Critical (Rapier)
15th: Staggering Strike (DoTU)
18th: Improved Critical (Hand Crossbow)

Skills: 8+2 = 10 skills from the rogue list. Probably Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, UMD, Listen, Spot, Search, Craft (Poison), Balance, Sleight of Hand.

Starting equipment (estimates): Composite Shortbow (35g), Studded Leather (30g), Rapier (20g), self-crafted drow poison x3 (75g)

How it all comes together:

1st level: You have Poison Use from your Drow rogue substitution, plus the feats to use a ranged weapon efficiently - so you basically just snipe with a short bow and pretend you don't have versatile combatant or a hand crossbow yet. You also have 3 poisoned arrows which can potentially end an encounter by putting an opponent to sleep.

2nd level: Now you have weapon finesse and +1 BAB, so you can use a rapier without missing consistently. So you become the party tank! You can also afford a masterwork chain shirt, masterwork tools (mostly for crafting poisons and searching for traps, I'd assume), and lots more poisons.

3rd level: Now suddenly you have Dex to damage against flat-footed opponents (Drow fighter), as well as 1/2 Dex to damage with crossbows (Crossbow sniper), plus weapon focus and rapid reload with a hand crossbow.

So at this point the tactic of charging in with a crossbow and rapier actually becomes viable - assuming no magical bonuses and a pair of masterwork weapons, you should be attacking at +5 for 1d6+2 and 1d6 SA (1d6+4 against flat-footed) with the rapier, and +6 for 1d4+2 and 1d6 SA (1d6+4 against flat-footed foes) with the crossbow. In addition to whatever poisons you've applied to your bolts and rapier - I like Roach Paste and Drow Poison on most things.

For equipment, a pair of MW weapons is good, as is picking up a str-based composite longbow and some more varied and higher DC poisons.

4th-5th level: Nothing special here, Dex gets bumped. For items, I'd get the Gloves of Dexterity ASAP, and some weapon crystals for quickdraw on your weapons is very helpful (MIC).

6th level: Daring Outlaw kicks into play, so you suddenly gain +1 Dodge to AC, but more importantly Sneak attack jumps from +1d6 to +3d6 damage. A Ring of the Darkhidden (MIC) is a great asset to stealth at this point.

7th: Now you add your Int to damage with the rapier. Adding the Assassination or Toxic/Virulent properties to your rapier to keep your poisons competitive is a good idea at this point.

8th: Dex gets bumped, adding to your damage, attacks, reflex, AC, and initiative. If you can use the online addition to SB, you can also use Bluff to seduce people =) The Ring of Anticipation (DoTU) is a good pick by this point, allowing you to roll 2x for initiative, helping to catch opponents flat-footed.

9th: Craven adds your character level to damage with sneak attacks, so you'll be dealing +4d6+9 (+4d6 +14 against flat-footed) with sneak attacks.
The Bracers of Murder (DoTU) are a great pick at this point, allowing you to reroll 1's on sneak attacks, as well as gaining +2 to att/dmg against flat-footed foes.

11th: Drow swashbuckler kicks in, allowing you to 5-ft step as a swift action whenever you hit once with at least each weapon in a round. Or you can keep Acrobatic Charge, but drow swashbuckler is a much more stylish effect in my mind.

12th: You now gain +4 on flanking from swashbuckler, and improved critical with the rapier

15th: Now whenever you critical with a rapier, the opponent is automatically slowed with no save, which should cut down on the mobility of anything trying to do Flyby Attack, or the deadliness of anything with nasty iterative attacks - such as practically every opponent you face by this point.

18th: Now your criticals with the hand crossbow will also slow opponents! Also, Weakening Critical from SB kicks in, allowing you to deal 2 Str damage to a creature every critical - combine it with 3d6 Str damage from Dragon Bile or another Str-based poison and anything not immune will drop fast.

19th: Swordsage adds nicely to Will and reflex, along with Weapon Focus (Rapier) from Diamond Mind Focus, +1 Init, and 6 maneuvers and a stance. Blood in the Water stance, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Pouncing Charge, Dancing Mongoose, Swift Invisibility, and Shadow Stride.

20th: Adds Assassin's Stance (or a mobility/senses ones) and probably Rabid Bear Strike.

Character roles and tactics:
The primary role is damage-dealer, which should be strong from 1st to 20th, but really increases in power at 3rd, 6th, and 9th level. The character is also a strong skills-monkey and scout from 1st-6th, but will be less efficient in that role afterwards due to the SB's mediocre skills list. The character is also a very solid tank, with 17d10+3d6 HP over the course of 20 levels - and as she gets weaker as a skills character her tanking should improve.

Finally, the character has more versatility in tactics than most damage-based classes - he can switch between melee and ranged combat easily, and poison use allows him to attack ability scores directly instead of just damage, or deal Con damage along with HP damage to drop a foe even faster than normal. Ideally, the character will function as the scout and tank, initiating every combat at the front line against flat-footed foes.

In PF, the character can maintain his role as skill-monkey from 1st to 20th.

Other good feats to take:
Quick Draw (also opens up some skill tricks)
Apprentice (Craftsman or Criminal)

Cool eh? :smallbiggrin:

[WeaselGuy]

Ta-da!:



Cool eh? :smallbiggrin:
Well I'm impressed... cleaner then my rapier crit fisher build, and thematic to boot!

[Doc_Maynot]

Maybe, Human Targeteer Fighter 2/Cloistered Cleric (of the ideal of the Marching Horde) 1/Feat Rogue 2/Factotum 16?
1:Rapid Reload (Hand Crossbow)
H:Two Weapon Fighting
FB-1:Point Blank Shot
FB-2:Rapid Shot
3:Combat Reflexes
D:War granting Weapon Focus(light mace)
D:Travel traded for the Devotion
D:Knowledge traded for the Devotion
FR-5: Lightning Maces
6:Font of Inspiration
FR-6: Versatile Combatant
9:Font of Inspiration
12:Font of Inspiration
15:Font of Inspiration
18:Font of Inspiration

If grants you the Lightning Mace ability relatively early, while assuming you are going rapier+hand crossbow. Which will come online at level 6.

[Aetolus]

Ta-da!:


Originally Posted by 123456789blaaa
You could take some ideas from akal saris' The sword and crossbow character.

"The Sword & Crossbow
This is a character I designed for the GITP forums to effectively fight with a sword in one hand and a crossbow in the other, but it makes pretty effective use of poisons.


SpoilerShow
Kalimor Srune'lett, NE Half-Drow Fighter 1/Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 14/Swordsage 2
Actual levels: Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 1/Fighter 1/Rogue +1/SB +1/Rogue 1/SW +14
ACFs: Drow swashbuckler 7, Drow Rogue 1, Drow fighter 1 (All from Drow of the Underdark), Spell Sense (C. Mage Rogue 3)
Note: suffers from multi-class penalties - sorry, there's no avoiding this if you actually use those in your game.

Total BAB: +18, total sneak attack: 9-11d6+20 per hit, total HD: 15d10+3d6+2d8

Stats: 32 PB
Str: 12
Dex: 18
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 8
Cha: 8

Feats:
1st: Versatile Combatant (DoTU)
1st flaw: Point Blank Shot
1st flaw: Precise Shot
2nd bonus SB: Weapon Finesse
3rd fighter: Crossbow Sniper (PHB II)
3rd: Hand Crossbow Focus (DoTU)
6th: Daring Outlaw (C. Scoundrel)
9th: Craven (Champions of Ruin)
12th: Improved Critical (Rapier)
15th: Staggering Strike (DoTU)
18th: Improved Critical (Hand Crossbow)

Skills: 8+2 = 10 skills from the rogue list. Probably Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, UMD, Listen, Spot, Search, Craft (Poison), Balance, Sleight of Hand.

Starting equipment (estimates): Composite Shortbow (35g), Studded Leather (30g), Rapier (20g), self-crafted drow poison x3 (75g)

How it all comes together:

1st level: You have Poison Use from your Drow rogue substitution, plus the feats to use a ranged weapon efficiently - so you basically just snipe with a short bow and pretend you don't have versatile combatant or a hand crossbow yet. You also have 3 poisoned arrows which can potentially end an encounter by putting an opponent to sleep.

2nd level: Now you have weapon finesse and +1 BAB, so you can use a rapier without missing consistently. So you become the party tank! You can also afford a masterwork chain shirt, masterwork tools (mostly for crafting poisons and searching for traps, I'd assume), and lots more poisons.

3rd level: Now suddenly you have Dex to damage against flat-footed opponents (Drow fighter), as well as 1/2 Dex to damage with crossbows (Crossbow sniper), plus weapon focus and rapid reload with a hand crossbow.

So at this point the tactic of charging in with a crossbow and rapier actually becomes viable - assuming no magical bonuses and a pair of masterwork weapons, you should be attacking at +5 for 1d6+2 and 1d6 SA (1d6+4 against flat-footed) with the rapier, and +6 for 1d4+2 and 1d6 SA (1d6+4 against flat-footed foes) with the crossbow. In addition to whatever poisons you've applied to your bolts and rapier - I like Roach Paste and Drow Poison on most things.

For equipment, a pair of MW weapons is good, as is picking up a str-based composite longbow and some more varied and higher DC poisons.

4th-5th level: Nothing special here, Dex gets bumped. For items, I'd get the Gloves of Dexterity ASAP, and some weapon crystals for quickdraw on your weapons is very helpful (MIC).

6th level: Daring Outlaw kicks into play, so you suddenly gain +1 Dodge to AC, but more importantly Sneak attack jumps from +1d6 to +3d6 damage. A Ring of the Darkhidden (MIC) is a great asset to stealth at this point.

7th: Now you add your Int to damage with the rapier. Adding the Assassination or Toxic/Virulent properties to your rapier to keep your poisons competitive is a good idea at this point.

8th: Dex gets bumped, adding to your damage, attacks, reflex, AC, and initiative. If you can use the online addition to SB, you can also use Bluff to seduce people =) The Ring of Anticipation (DoTU) is a good pick by this point, allowing you to roll 2x for initiative, helping to catch opponents flat-footed.

9th: Craven adds your character level to damage with sneak attacks, so you'll be dealing +4d6+9 (+4d6 +14 against flat-footed) with sneak attacks.
The Bracers of Murder (DoTU) are a great pick at this point, allowing you to reroll 1's on sneak attacks, as well as gaining +2 to att/dmg against flat-footed foes.

11th: Drow swashbuckler kicks in, allowing you to 5-ft step as a swift action whenever you hit once with at least each weapon in a round. Or you can keep Acrobatic Charge, but drow swashbuckler is a much more stylish effect in my mind.

12th: You now gain +4 on flanking from swashbuckler, and improved critical with the rapier

15th: Now whenever you critical with a rapier, the opponent is automatically slowed with no save, which should cut down on the mobility of anything trying to do Flyby Attack, or the deadliness of anything with nasty iterative attacks - such as practically every opponent you face by this point.

18th: Now your criticals with the hand crossbow will also slow opponents! Also, Weakening Critical from SB kicks in, allowing you to deal 2 Str damage to a creature every critical - combine it with 3d6 Str damage from Dragon Bile or another Str-based poison and anything not immune will drop fast.

19th: Swordsage adds nicely to Will and reflex, along with Weapon Focus (Rapier) from Diamond Mind Focus, +1 Init, and 6 maneuvers and a stance. Blood in the Water stance, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap, Pouncing Charge, Dancing Mongoose, Swift Invisibility, and Shadow Stride.

20th: Adds Assassin's Stance (or a mobility/senses ones) and probably Rabid Bear Strike.

Character roles and tactics:
The primary role is damage-dealer, which should be strong from 1st to 20th, but really increases in power at 3rd, 6th, and 9th level. The character is also a strong skills-monkey and scout from 1st-6th, but will be less efficient in that role afterwards due to the SB's mediocre skills list. The character is also a very solid tank, with 17d10+3d6 HP over the course of 20 levels - and as she gets weaker as a skills character her tanking should improve.

Finally, the character has more versatility in tactics than most damage-based classes - he can switch between melee and ranged combat easily, and poison use allows him to attack ability scores directly instead of just damage, or deal Con damage along with HP damage to drop a foe even faster than normal. Ideally, the character will function as the scout and tank, initiating every combat at the front line against flat-footed foes.

In PF, the character can maintain his role as skill-monkey from 1st to 20th.

Other good feats to take:
Quick Draw (also opens up some skill tricks)
Apprentice (Craftsman or Criminal)
Cool eh?

I really like it. Swordsage wasn't what I was expecting. The wisdom synergy opens the door for some cleric, no?


Maybe, Human Targeteer Fighter 2/Cloistered Cleric (of the ideal of the Marching Horde) 1/Feat Rogue 2/Factotum 16?
1:Rapid Reload (Hand Crossbow)
H:Two Weapon Fighting
FB-1:Point Blank Shot
FB-2:Rapid Shot
3:Combat Reflexes
D:War granting Weapon Focus(light mace)
D:Travel traded for the Devotion
D:Knowledge traded for the Devotion
FR-5: Lightning Maces
6:Font of Inspiration
FR-6: Versatile Combatant
9:Font of Inspiration
12:Font of Inspiration
15:Font of Inspiration
18:Font of Inspiration

If grants you the Lightning Mace ability relatively early, while assuming you are going rapier+hand crossbow. Which will come online at level 6.

How are you getting weapon aptitude?

[Kazudo]

Aptitude is also a +1 enhancement to weapons.

[Doc_Maynot]

How are you getting weapon aptitude?

Aptitude weapon enhancement.

Edit: Swordsage'd

[Vogonjeltz]

I had a little bit of inspiration reading how Lightning Maces (Feat, CW)and Weapon Aptitude (Warblade, ToB) interact.

They don't interact, at all.

Lightning Mace is a style, it's not a designated weapon feat. It happens to work on specific weapons, but it doesn't key to them.


These are designated weapon feats:

Weapon Focus (weapon name); Weapon Specialization (weapon name); Greater Weapon Focus (weapon name); Greater Weapon Specialization (weapon name); Improved Critical (weapon name); Simple, Martial, or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (weapon name); Rapid Reload (crossbow type)

[Aetolus]

Can you please show me what you're reading that says it needs to be a "designated weapon feat"?

[WeaselGuy]

"Each morning, you can spend 1 hour in weapon practice to change the designated weapon for any feat you have that applies only to a single weapon (such as Weapon Focus). You must have the newly designated weapon available during your practice session to make this change. For example, if you wish to change the designated weapon for your Weapon Focus feat from greatsword to longsword, you must have a longsword available to practice with during your practice session. You can adjust any number of your feats in this way, and you don’t have to adjust them all in the same way. However, you can’t change the weapon choices in such a way that you no longer meet the prerequisite for some other feat you possess. For instance, if you have both Weapon Focus (longsword) and Weapon Specialization (longsword), you can’t change the designated weapon for Weapon Focus unless you also change the weapon for Weapon Specialization in the same way."

The way I read that, if a feat you have requires you to be using, say, light maces, and you want to use, I dunno, a rapier or a kukri for it instead, an hour of practice in the morning has you set.

[Taelas]

Technically, there's no definition of what a designated weapon feat is. It is obviously intended for feats that can normally apply to different weapons so you can choose between them instead of being stuck with what you picked up at the start, but it doesn't actually say that. As far as I can tell, anyway. By strict RAW, this works. Can't say I find it particularly broken either, at least not at first glance.

[Werephilosopher]

They don't interact, at all.

Lightning Mace is a style, it's not a designated weapon feat. It happens to work on specific weapons, but it doesn't key to them.


These are designated weapon feats:

Weapon Focus (weapon name); Weapon Specialization (weapon name); Greater Weapon Focus (weapon name); Greater Weapon Specialization (weapon name); Improved Critical (weapon name); Simple, Martial, or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (weapon name); Rapid Reload (crossbow type)

I don't see where you're getting that from, since the rules never make mention of "designated weapon feats," nor describe certain feats as "keying" to certain weapons as opposed to working with them. The Weapon Aptitude ability calls out "any feat you have that applies only to a single weapon," such as Lightning Maces; and says the Warblade can change the "designated weapon," in this case, a mace.