Gunslinger Help?

[cecil1994]

Ok guys, I'd like some help optimizing a Gunslinger.
It's not what you think though- I've been playing him since 1st level and I'm quite happy with how he's turned out. What I need from you guys is build help for after fifth level, where I plan to start multiclassing.

He's a Tiefling Pistolero Mysterious Stranger, usingg Prehensile Tail + Rapid Reload + Alchemical Ammunition for free action reloading of TWF double-barreled pistols. (The prehensile tail bit was DM fiat- free action to take object from hands).

Now, he's approaching level 5, and I've decided I'd like to multiclass from 6 on. The most important bit for him is DPS, so classes that add to that would be very helpful.

I've been thinking about Paladin, but I need a way to Smite Evil and use Focused Aim (mysterious stranger, it's a swift to add cha to all damage- and I make lots of attacks with a 20 in charisma. I don't want to lose this.)

Now, what's my best option? The best ones I can see are Inquisistor (but I have 8 Wisdom), Alchemist (10 Int), Fighter, or Paladin. If you have a better one I'm all ears.

And here are my fifth level stats-

6 Str
19 Dex
10 Con
10 Int
8 Wis
20 Cha

Feats-
Rapid Reload(Double-Barreled Pistol)
Gunsmithing(obviously, it came free)
TWF(traded two traits for this)
Point Blank Shot
Deadly Aim
Rapid Shot

Attack Bonus- 5 BAB + 4 Dex + 1 Point Blank Shot (-2 for Deadly Aim, -2 TWF(ruled as light weapons), -2 Rapid Shot, -4 double barrels)

Full Attack routine(I almost never shoot every bullet though)

+2/+2/+0/+0/+0/+0 (Thankfully against touch AC- also, now you can see why I want smite evil. +5 to all of these would be awesome)

So, here's his damage on one shot-

1d8 + 4 Dex + 1 Point Blank Shot + 5 Cha + 4 Deadly Aim

Thanks!

[NightbringerGGZ]

So the Holy Gun archetype gets a inferior version of Smite (it's a single shot as a standard action, costs a Grit Point). This isn't terrible since you already have a Grit Pool, while this archetype normally doesn't get one till level 11. This would let you combine both abilities, but the cost will be high.

Otherwise, nothing prevents you from using a normal Smite. Smite on Turn 1, use Focused Aim on following turns. If you really want to combo the two effects, declare your Smite on turn 1 but don't attack. Use your Standard action to buff up.

[Jacob.Tyr]

Could go with:
Rogue, Thug Archetype
Pump Intimidation with every skill point you can.

Edit: Oops, for some reason I thought feats were even levels (They are odd, right?)

At level 6:
+1d6 sneak attack
Frightening: Increases duration of shaken from intimidate checks by 1 round.

Level 7:
Feat- Weapon Focus Pistol
Rogue Talent- Combat Talent Dazzling Display
Evasion

Level 8:
+2d6 Sneak Attack Damage
Trade 1d6 Sneak Attack for sickening target for 1/2 rogue level rounds (meh, if this worked with Shatter Defenses it would be solid)

Level 9:
Feat- Shatter Defenses
Rogue Talent: No idea, maybe bleeding sneak attacks?
Uncanny Dodge

First round of combat you make a display - intimidation check vs all enemies - as a full round action. Alternatively, use a standard action after a move to intimidate one target. Thug increases the duration of this.

Next round, you unload with your pistols. First hit at level 9 will cause your enemies to count as flat-footed. You are now targeting touch AC against flat footed enemies, and getting sneak attack damage on every one of your hits.

Since you're already high CHA, you should have no trouble making your intimidate checks (10 + HD + wis mod).

[cecil1994]

So the Holy Gun archetype gets a inferior version of Smite (it's a single shot as a standard action, costs a Grit Point). This isn't terrible since you already have a Grit Pool, while this archetype normally doesn't get one till level 11. This would let you combine both abilities, but the cost will be high.

Otherwise, nothing prevents you from using a normal Smite. Smite on Turn 1, use Focused Aim on following turns. If you really want to combo the two effects, declare your Smite on turn 1 but don't attack. Use your Standard action to buff up.

I might end up doing the latter suggestion, but Smiting Shot is basically a nerf to my character. I make anywhere from 2-8 shots at this level. One shot is not my style.

[cecil1994]

Could go with:
Rogue, Thug Archetype
Pump Intimidation with every skill point you can.

Edit: Oops, for some reason I thought feats were even levels (They are odd, right?)

At level 6:
+1d6 sneak attack
Frightening: Increases duration of shaken from intimidate checks by 1 round.

Level 7:
Feat- Weapon Focus Pistol
Rogue Talent- Combat Talent Dazzling Display
Evasion

Level 8:
+2d6 Sneak Attack Damage
Trade 1d6 Sneak Attack for sickening target for 1/2 rogue level rounds (meh, if this worked with Shatter Defenses it would be solid)

Level 9:
Feat- Shatter Defenses
Rogue Talent: No idea, maybe bleeding sneak attacks?
Uncanny Dodge

First round of combat you make a display - intimidation check vs all enemies - as a full round action. Alternatively, use a standard action after a move to intimidate one target. Thug increases the duration of this.

Next round, you unload with your pistols. First hit at level 9 will cause your enemies to count as flat-footed. You are now targeting touch AC against flat footed enemies, and getting sneak attack damage on every one of your hits.

Since you're already high CHA, you should have no trouble making your intimidate checks (10 + HD + wis mod).

This is a definite possibility. While I do like the idea, 3/4 BAB hits hard for my type of character, especially at 6th level- where I normally get my second attack.

Currently, I'm looking into Fighter. I'm not decided though.

[Jacob.Tyr]

Taking Fighter at 6 for weapon focus then switching to Thug would get Shatter Defenses online at level 8, and might actually be a better choice in the short and long term.

6
Fighter
Bonus feat - Weapon Focus

7
Rogue (Thug)
Feat - Dazzling Display

8
Rogue (Thug)
Rogue Talent - Combat Talent (Shattered Defenses)

Your 3rd attack won't come online for awhile, but you're still getting a ton of attacks.

[cecil1994]

Taking Fighter at 6 for weapon focus then switching to Thug would get Shatter Defenses online at level 8, and might actually be a better choice in the short and long term.

6
Fighter
Bonus feat - Weapon Focus

7
Rogue (Thug)
Feat - Dazzling Display

8
Rogue (Thug)
Rogue Talent - Combat Talent (Shattered Defenses)

Your 3rd attack won't come online for awhile, but you're still getting a ton of attacks.

Actually, I think I might just take 3 levels in Trench Fighter- that gets me full BAB, 2 bonus feats, and Dex to damage again with my pistols. I can't think of a better option.

[Jacob.Tyr]

Actually, I think I might just take 3 levels in Trench Fighter- that gets me full BAB, 2 bonus feats, and Dex to damage again with my pistols. I can't think of a better option.
I did not realize that stacked, but I can't now think of any reason why it doesn't. That seems incredibly solid, if your DM is okay with Trench Fighter in the setting.

[Slipperychicken]

The +Cha to hit from Paladin lets you nova hard, but is very situational. I wouldn't take Paladin because it only works on evil targets, has sharply limited uses/day, and has those annoying RP requirements. Besides, you're swinging against Touch AC: it won't take long for your attack bonus to catch up to the penalties.

I'd probably go with Trench Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/trench-fighter) for at least 3 levels, to get dex to damage again (allowing you to focus ability increases on Dex), score some extra feats* and also small boosts like weapon training.

*Feats would probably go toward Weapon Focus(Pistol)->Snap Shot-> Improved Snap Shot, and Combat Reflexes. This will let you take loads of AoOs against everything within 15ft, reducing your vulnerability in melee and ruining enemy archers and spellcasters.


And a few miscellaneous things:

Why isn't your gun enchanted or masterwork? Try to make it +1, and then Greater Reliable as soon as you can afford it (so you don't have to waste rounds to Quick Clear your gun when it misfires). This is cheaper if you have someone with Craft Magic Arms and Armor to enchant it for half price. If you can't afford magic, try to get someone to cast Masterwork Transformation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/masterwork-transformation) on it (should only run you about 360gp from an NPC).
How are you surviving with Con 10? You should be really squishy.
A mount could help improve mobility in combat, so you can move more than 5ft between full attacks. This is important for your DPS because it can save you move actions and let you full attack more often. You may or may not be able to take it into the dungeon, but mounts are cheap and can help you a lot where you can ride them. Also lets you kite people like a boss.
Why is Charisma > Dexterity? I'm guessing that was to help your damage until you hit level 5?

[NightbringerGGZ]

Trench Fighter for 3 Levels would be very good. That's dex to damage right there. Note that the Mysterious Stranger also gets Dex to damage at level 9, and it would stack w/ Trench Fighter. The Fighter levels would also give you some bonus feats if you want to go with a Snap Shot build (for even more shots per round).

[Snowbluff]

*Feats would probably go toward Weapon Focus(Pistol)->Snap Shot-> Improved Snap Shot, and Combat Reflexes. This will let you take loads of AoOs against everything within 15ft, reducing your vulnerability in melee and ruining enemy archers and spellcasters.
Versus archers and casters?

First of all, you can't reload off turn. Combat reflexes is worthless.

Second, archers outrange you substantially. They would more likely just stay away.

Third, casters would either keep their distance or just cast defensively.

This is terrible advice. Everything else is sound. The Con is very important, since Gunslingers are secretly melee characters.

As for mount, how about doing my cleric build but with guns? Be a Samsaran, pick up Saddle Surge, Named Bullet (for earlier use), and Litany of Righteousness.

[cecil1994]

The +Cha to hit from Paladin lets you nova hard, but is very situational. I wouldn't take Paladin because it only works on evil targets, has sharply limited uses/day, and has those annoying RP requirements. Besides, you're swinging against Touch AC: it won't take long for your attack bonus to catch up to the penalties.

I'd probably go with Trench Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/trench-fighter) for at least 3 levels, to get dex to damage again (allowing you to focus ability increases on Dex), score some extra feats* and also small boosts like weapon training.

*Feats would probably go toward Weapon Focus(Pistol)->Snap Shot-> Improved Snap Shot, and Combat Reflexes. This will let you take loads of AoOs against everything within 15ft, reducing your vulnerability in melee and ruining enemy archers and spellcasters.


And a few miscellaneous things:

Why isn't your gun enchanted or masterwork? Try to make it +1, and then Greater Reliable as soon as you can afford it (so you don't have to waste rounds to Quick Clear your gun when it misfires). This is cheaper if you have someone with Craft Magic Arms and Armor to enchant it for half price. If you can't afford magic, try to get someone to cast Masterwork Transformation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/masterwork-transformation) on it (should only run you about 360gp from an NPC).
How are you surviving with Con 10? You should be really squishy.
A mount could help improve mobility in combat, so you can move more than 5ft between full attacks. This is important for your DPS because it can save you move actions and let you full attack more often. You may or may not be able to take it into the dungeon, but mounts are cheap and can help you a lot where you can ride them. Also lets you kite people like a boss.
Why is Charisma > Dexterity? I'm guessing that was to help your damage until you hit level 5?


Yeah, I'm basically decided on the Trench Fighter thing. To answer your questions-

1. Low Wealth Campaign. More like no wealth actually- I think over these levels I've gotten around 70 gold. It's hard enough paying to craft my bullets anyways. So, how did I start at level one with two double-barreled pistols? An immense amount of rules shenanigans, which I will list if anyone cares.

2. I wanted high dex and cha, so I made sacrifices. Thankfully I'm rolling obscenely well for health- 36 at 4th level, more than anyone else in the party. (Granted, the highest level they have is 2. But I digress.)

3. See answer one. Also we do a lot of enclosed space stuff.

4. You're exactly right here. If you could come up with a good excuse so my DM would let me switch, I'm all ears.

[cecil1994]

Versus archers and casters?

First of all, you can't reload off turn. Combat reflexes is worthless.

Second, archers outrange you substantially. They would more likely just stay away.

Third, casters would either keep their distance or just cast defensively.

This is terrible advice. Everything else is sound. The Con is very important, since Gunslingers are secretly melee characters.

As for mount, how about doing my cleric build but with guns? Be a Samsaran, pick up Saddle Surge, Named Bullet (for earlier use), and Litany of Righteousness.

First off- all hail the mighty samsaran! :)

But if you don't recommend those feats, what's your suggestion?

Also, while I love that build, I can't change mine now. But thanks.

[Snowbluff]

First off- all hail the mighty samsaran! :)

But if you don't recommend those feats, what's your suggestion?

Also, while I love that build, I can't change mine now. But thanks.

TWF? Guns are expensive. You're a tiefling, you have a CL. Make something with Craft Magic Arms? Unfortunately, your dude is pretty dumb. The spellcraft DCs would be too tough.

But you DO have a CL, so Arcane Strike would help you crank out so DMG.

20 Cha? Eldritch Heritage. Either pick up a familiar or AnC.

Precise and Improve Precise Shots are good. ITWF, of course. These are basic suggestions.

[cecil1994]

TWF? Guns are expensive. You're a tiefling, you have a CL. Make something with Craft Magic Arms? Unfortunately, your dude is pretty dumb. The spellcraft DCs would be too tough.

But you DO have a CL, so Arcane Strike would help you crank out so DMG.

20 Cha? Eldritch Heritage. Either pick up a familiar or AnC.

Precise and Improve Precise Shots are good. ITWF, of course. These are basic suggestions.

Thanks for the suggestions.
Arcane Strike would be nice, but it's not worth my swift action.
ITWF was on my shopping list, but my DM always forgets about the penalties for firing into melee for Precise Shot and I don't remind her.
I'll look into Eldritch Heritage, but I'll probably just do something more combat based.

[Slipperychicken]

Arcane Strike would be nice, but it's not worth my swift action.

It could be nice when you don't want to blow a grit point for bonus damage, or once you've run out of grit. Also, it works for the whole round (Mysterious Stranger thing only works for your turn), letting it work for AoOs if you grab the Snap Shot line. May or may not be worth a feat, depending on how often you recover grit, but YMMV.




1. Low Wealth Campaign. More like no wealth actually- I think over these levels I've gotten around 70 gold. It's hard enough paying to craft my bullets anyways. So, how did I start at level one with two double-barreled pistols? An immense amount of rules shenanigans, which I will list if anyone cares.
EDIT (didn't notice you replied to my earlier post): You could use your Gunsmithing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/gunsmithing) feat to craft and sell blackpowder or bullets to earn some easy cash. Craft it at 10% market price, then sell at 50%. You can make up to 1000gp worth in an 8 hour day of work, so the math* works out so you can net 400gp per day (or some fraction thereof, depending on how much time you have to craft). With a week or so of downtime, you could scrape together enough to enchant your weapon.

[math]
*You can craft up to 1000gp worth of ammunition per day. You sell it at half price (500gp), minus the 10% for crafting materials (100gp) leaves you with 400gp to take home. That's a 400% return on investment for just one day of work, which isn't too shabby in a low-wealth game.

[grarrrg]

He's a Tiefling Pistolero Mysterious Stranger

Only problem I see is that those archetypes don't combine. They both trade away Gun Training 1.

[cecil1994]

Only problem I see is that those archetypes don't combine. They both trade away Gun Training 1.

Pre-errata, Pistolero doesn't trade away Gun Training. They give it to you for free.

[grarrrg]

Pre-errata, Pistolero doesn't trade away Gun Training. They give it to you for free.

Pre-errata it was stupid obvious that it was supposed to be traded away and they goofed.

[Slipperychicken]

Pre-errata it was stupid obvious that it was supposed to be traded away and they goofed.

The OP is abusing his GM's memory to dodge penalties. It's pretty clear he's not too concerned about being 100% faithful to the rules.



First of all, you can't reload off turn. Combat reflexes is worthless.

Actually...


FAQ:
Can a character with Snap Shot and Combat Reflexes make multiple attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon, assuming that loading the ranged weapon is a free action?
Yes. As long as you can reload your weapon with a free action you can reload your weapon as part of the ranged attack attack of opportunity you are making with the Snap Shot feat.


And my comment was mostly if the gunslinger got within 10ft of the archer/spellcaster. Then, they pretty much have to incur an AoO if they want to get out of the threatened area (much less attacking or casting spells) in one turn. They can't 5ft out, and Withdraw won't help either.

[cecil1994]

The OP is abusing his GM's memory to dodge penalties. It's pretty clear he's not too concerned about being 100% faithful to the rules.

*sigh. I'm going to tell her now, as there's no point in optimization if I cheat.

But in my defense, she does all the calculations in private. I may not tell her it, but she might use the penalties- it just never seems like it.

[Snowbluff]

And my comment was mostly if the gunslinger got within 10ft of the archer/spellcaster. Then, they pretty much have to incur an AoO if they want to get out of the threatened area (much less attacking or casting spells) in one turn. They can't 5ft out, and Withdraw won't help either. Well, that's a reasonable ruling that spits in the face of the rules. Thanks, PF.
It'll be helpful against other melee characters, but it's Cleave-levels of applicable against the valuable targets.

Plus, the actual option is to walk. Nothing a gunslinger is going to do will keep you from moving off and conducting your business elsewhere. Everyone should know that you're better off taking the AoO for moving than taking it while casting. You have to be fighting against a really stupid DM or opponent for it to work. For 4 feats.

So it's still really bad advice.

For some REAL advice, I advice fixing the true issue. You need to be able to pounce. Your Cha is huge. The obvious solution is Synthesist.

[Slipperychicken]

*sigh. I'm going to tell her now, as there's no point in optimization if I cheat.

But in my defense, she does all the calculations in private. I may not tell her it, but she might use the penalties- it just never seems like it.

It's okay, loads of people (myself included) do the 'selective memory' thing early on in their careers.

[EDIT]


Plus, the actual option is to walk. Nothing a gunslinger is going to do will keep you from moving off and conducting your business elsewhere. Everyone should know that you're better off taking the AoO for moving than taking it while casting. You have to be fighting against a really stupid DM or opponent for it to work. For 4 feats.

So it's still really bad advice.

For some REAL advice, I advice fixing the true issue. You need to be able to pounce. Your Cha is huge. The obvious solution is Synthesist.

Even if those guys walk out, that's still an extra two attacks for our gunslinger (and a wasted move action for the enemy), courtesy of double-barreled pistols. And with his damage output, that could quite possibly drop them.

EDIT 2: Not to mention that most people don't expect ranged characters to make AoOs from 10ft away.

And yes, Synthesist dips go with everything. Be a synthesist, have a bajillion arms, make them all hold guns, and fire with all of them. I don't see what pounce is for, though.

[Jacob.Tyr]

Pounce=Leaping shot deed? I know that goes well on a gundolon build, get an attack at your highest BAB with each weapon (2 attacks for each double-barrel). Pile on the arms and wield as many as you can. Hell, using your prehensile tail to reload you'd be able to use it every round instead of just being a once nova ability.

Switching to Syntheist doesn't really work this late, though, as you use the Eidolons BAB instead of your own.

[grarrrg]

You need to be able to pounce. Your Cha is huge. The obvious solution is Synthesist.

Pounce is based on Charge, and Charge only allows Melee attacks. :smallfrown:
(or at least it is heavily implied that you can only make Melee attacks with Pounce)


Pounce=Leaping shot deed?...be able to use it every round instead of just being a once nova ability.
The Leaping Shot deed would be more useful if the pre-req feats weren't cruddy, although they are the same pre-req feats for Deft Shootist deed so there's that.

Also, Leaping Shot makes you Prone at the end. Standing up from Prone is a move action. So Leaping Shot is not something you are going to be able to do every round anyway.
(and while there are ways to stand up as a Swift or so, they are feat/class intensive and you probably don't have that many spare feats/class-levels to go around)


And yes, Synthesist dips go with everything. Be a synthesist, have a bajillion arms, make them all hold guns, and fire with all of them. I don't see what pounce is for, though.

Depends on how many levels your "dip" is.
Generally a couple levels won't do much of anything, as your Eidolon-suit just won't have the stats nor the Evo-points to be worth it.


Hell, using your prehensile tail to reload you'd be able to use it every round instead of just being a once nova ability.

If your in Eidolon-suit you don't have a tail anymore.
But you do have loads of arms, so leaving one free isn't much of an issue.


Switching to Syntheist doesn't really work this late, though, as you use the Eidolons BAB instead of your own.
The Eidolon Bab only replaces the Summoner-Bab. Other classes Bab adds on just fine.

[Snowbluff]

Even if those guys walk out, that's still an extra two attacks for our gunslinger (and a wasted move action for the enemy), courtesy of double-barreled pistols. And with his damage output, that could quite possibly drop them.
Techinically, an AoO isn't an action, so you can't fire twice. Not to mention quishies usually have a point or 2 in dex. If we're talking about this character in particular, then he's not very good against archers, who tend to have a touch AC higher than 10. Also, he's taken out by any will save spell.


EDIT 2: Not to mention that most people don't expect ranged characters to make AoOs from 10ft away.
I would expect myself to walk away from the gunslinger either way.

As far as threatened squares go, I've always know that you know you are threatened if you see the target. I don't think it's RAW, but I think they would notice after the first attack.


And yes, Synthesist dips go with everything. Be a synthesist, have a bajillion arms, make them all hold guns, and fire with all of them. I don't see what pounce is for, though.
The melee attack at the end of your charge is changed to a full attack. This would actually let you shot people really easily. If you have reach, you can avoid the AoO from fire in melee range, since you end the charge 10 feet away. The extra attack bonus and being within touch range is really handy.

As for dex, the quadruped has 14 base, and that can become 16 with a couple of EP. The dex will scale itself after that.

[cecil1994]

Actually, I don't think the "ignoring Precise Shot" bit is actually important. Now that I think about it our group has one devoted melee character, and he has a reach weapon. Sure, I might have to fire into melee sometime, but it won't come up enough for me to take the feat.

[Slipperychicken]

Actually, I don't think the "ignoring Precise Shot" bit is actually important. Now that I think about it our group has one devoted melee character, and he has a reach weapon. Sure, I might have to fire into melee sometime, but it won't come up enough for me to take the feat.

It can also qualify you for Improved Precise Shot, which lets you ignore (IIRC) basically anything short of total cover.

[cecil1994]

While we're at it, do you guys know any way to get signature deed early or without the 11 Gunslinger levels(I'll have five)? It's a delicious feat, and I'd love to apply it to Up Close and Deadly for free action +2d6 damage per shot and half damage on a miss.

[grarrrg]

While we're at it, do you guys know any way to get signature deed early or without the 11 Gunslinger levels(I'll have five)? It's a delicious feat, and I'd love to apply it to Up Close and Deadly for free action +2d6 damage per shot and half damage on a miss.

Nope. The only way to get Signature deed is 11 levels of Gunslinger.
There is nothing else that "counts as Gunslinger levels" to stack with.
The closest is Shield Marshal, but that only stacks for the actual Gunslinger Deeds (and a 1/2 rate).