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View Full Version : Punching High-Magic in the Face: Building a Campaign Setting for 5E.



Palegreenpants
2014-06-27, 12:52 PM
Hi everyone,

For some time now, I have been constructing a rather unique campaign setting for the upcoming version of D&D. Before anyone explodes, no, I have not built any statistical dependencies into it (yet,) as I know the rules will change upon full release.

Anyway, this setting is based on truly ancient European mythology (fairy tales) and real world-inspired sociological frames. I won't go into detail about it, as I have come here to ask for people's opinions about a single element of the world (which I have dubbed Nören, and my players are already playing in.)

The element I ask for opinions on is this: the fact that I have absolutely thrown out high-fantasy/magic themes. Magic exists, sure, but in a manor similar to J.R.R Tolkien's first writings (i.e., very subtly.) Strong, physically manifested magic only appears in the oldest places of Nören, and in the hands of its eldest races.

Your thoughts? This setting has caused some controversy amongst my players, as it eliminates much of the expected D&D content, and most of the expected magical fallbacks and lore. Some players take it into stride, enjoying the discovery of a new way to view D&D, while others continually butt their heads into the wall of non-magic, hurting the experience for everyone.

Now, would a majority of D&D players wish to experience a setting such as this? That, among other notes, is my question.

Asta Kask
2014-06-27, 12:53 PM
I would, but I may not be representative.

Yorrin
2014-06-27, 01:00 PM
I would enjoy playing in such a setting, but not necessarily for every campaign. Perhaps as one of two campaign worlds that my group played in, with the other having more magic access. (Though as a DM I would totally link the two worlds Tales of Symphonia style where the one was draining magic from the other.)

Palegreenpants
2014-06-27, 01:10 PM
As Yorrin said, you'll probably want to play a high-magic game after a while.

On a somewhat related note, I try to build my world with just enough variation in style and theme that it can supply nearly any theme of adventure, be it horror, intrigue, slaying, or questing. I try and use scattered tidbits of scary, ancient magic to prevent possible magi-withdrawal.

SpawnOfMorbo
2014-06-27, 01:45 PM
The element I ask for opinions on is this: the fact that I have absolutely thrown out high-fantasy/magic themes. Magic exists, sure, but in a manor similar to J.R.R Tolkien's first writings (i.e., very subtly.) Strong, physically manifested magic only appears in the oldest places of Nören, and in the hands of its eldest races.


Sorry but I've played this game, it is called 2e.

I've been in many settings where it was super low magic, and you know what happened? I (and others) went running to Spell Jammer :smallwink:.

Tolkien in all honesty hurt the fantasy genre as much as he helped it. Sure being a nerd can be cool and all but there is so much from his writings that severely limits fantasy that it just doesnt do fantasy justice. What you end up getting is that all the cool things are out of the reach of the players.

The thing about D&D is that by coming into it you expect to play fantasy, not a simulation game. Getting rid of all magic essentially makes you play a Sim game.

Unless there are some badass Ex abilities to be had (Flash Step or ToB stuff) of course.

You end up playing bilbo or frodo while the actual fantasy things get to play with reality. Kinda reminds me of the DMs who has players use non-magical PCs but still have magic in their game via monsters and NPCs. The PCs have to sit back and watch the DM get all the goodies while the players get limited characters (2e/3.5).

As a player, why would I play a fantasy game when I don't get to be fantasy (the problem with most editions of d&d and non-casters)? Why don't I go play a game where the mechanics and concepts are made, ground up, for a non magic setting?

It will be like putting a round peg into a square hole. Sure its quite possible, but you need a hammer to slam it through the hole. Sure you can do it, but is the end product worth it? Why not just use a system made for this kind of world?

Somebloke
2014-06-27, 01:47 PM
My own homebrew setting- which I have run on and off for several years- is very low magic. It's an interesting challenge and I would be interested in your progress.

Palegreenpants
2014-06-27, 01:59 PM
To SpawnOfMorbo, I think you may have misunderstood my reference to Tolkien, which was, I admit, vague. In it, I refered to the physical appearance of magic in the LotR books, which is very subtle. Gandalf and Saruman's spells are very powerful, but extremely mysterious.

You do make an interesting point about the "square peg," but I've already addressed the issue of a game system with my group, and that's why we've chosen the currently bare-bones 5E, which promises to remain bare-bones and non-setting specific in its basic rules. All of 5E's statistics, spells, and classes are usable in Nören by dint of the fact that they are simple and not lore specific. Once again, a good observation. This setting would not work in, say, 4E, but 5E supports it with no modification of the current setting.

Edit:
I would like to point out that for every element of magic I have removed, a new means, either natural or technological, has been implemented in stead. Exemplī Grātiā Everburning torches are now Dvergarn gel-lanterns, which utilize a dual-reaction fuel to burn for years.

Lord_Jord
2014-06-27, 02:08 PM
I would play this. If not for a change, then definitely for the challenge of over coming things without the "I can do anything with magic"

Madfellow
2014-06-27, 09:23 PM
One of the things I love about 5e so far is that it seems to have reigned back the magic a bit from where it stood in 3 and 4e. There are 4 core races and a good mix of effective mundane classes to choose from. Not everything in 5e is dependent on magic as a power source, and magic items have a MUCH smaller presence. These are all changes that I love, because my opinion on magic is that the less you see of it, the cooler it is when you do see it. Magic becomes more special because it is harder to come by. It makes things feel more real.

Conversely, the one thing that has annoyed me about 5e is that the wizard, sorcerer, and warlock are all core classes. My opinion is that the game does not need three different flavors of "guy in robes who throws fireballs." I plan on DMing the Tyranny of Dragons campaign with my group once it comes out, and when I do I want to talk to my party about possibly not using those classes at all.

This is slightly off topic, but I really like the idea of running a campaign without arcane magic, in which all magic comes from the gods instead. It harkens back to the old myths of demi-gods and divine wrath and all that good stuff. Plus, divine casters aren't entirely dependent on their magic; if they run out of spells they can still fall back on a good weapon and a suit of armor.

Above all, what I want is a game in which every problem is not solved by one party member saying to another, "Hey, you remembered to pack the Wand of Insert Spell Here, right?"

TL;DR
Yes, this is the kind of game I have always wanted D&D to be for me, and I totally think it's doable with 5e. If your players are having trouble, then it sounds like something just isn't clicking for them and maybe you should try meeting them halfway.

Palegreenpants
2014-06-28, 07:47 AM
Above all, what I want is a game in which every problem is not solved by one party member saying to another, "Hey, you remembered to pack the Wand of Insert Spell Here, right?"


Yes! Solving problems with knowledge and physical brawn is far more interesting.



TL;DR
Yes, this is the kind of game I have always wanted D&D to be for me, and I totally think it's doable with 5e. If your players are having trouble, then it sounds like something just isn't clicking for them and maybe you should try meeting them halfway.

You are very right about meeting players halfway. One of my most troublesome players, who played a monk, became frequently angry about the lack of classical, over-magical D&D monsters and lore, which I had thrown out the window. His monk soon died, so I suggested he play a magician. This was a perfect solution, as Nören magicians are both scholars and spellcasters. Thus, he was able to cope with the lack of known lore by researching it in-game!

Lokiare
2014-06-28, 08:53 AM
One of the things I love about 5e so far is that it seems to have reigned back the magic a bit from where it stood in 3 and 4e. There are 4 core races and a good mix of effective mundane classes to choose from. Not everything in 5e is dependent on magic as a power source, and magic items have a MUCH smaller presence. These are all changes that I love, because my opinion on magic is that the less you see of it, the cooler it is when you do see it. Magic becomes more special because it is harder to come by. It makes things feel more real.

Conversely, the one thing that has annoyed me about 5e is that the wizard, sorcerer, and warlock are all core classes. My opinion is that the game does not need three different flavors of "guy in robes who throws fireballs." I plan on DMing the Tyranny of Dragons campaign with my group once it comes out, and when I do I want to talk to my party about possibly not using those classes at all.

This is slightly off topic, but I really like the idea of running a campaign without arcane magic, in which all magic comes from the gods instead. It harkens back to the old myths of demi-gods and divine wrath and all that good stuff. Plus, divine casters aren't entirely dependent on their magic; if they run out of spells they can still fall back on a good weapon and a suit of armor.

Above all, what I want is a game in which every problem is not solved by one party member saying to another, "Hey, you remembered to pack the Wand of Insert Spell Here, right?"

TL;DR
Yes, this is the kind of game I have always wanted D&D to be for me, and I totally think it's doable with 5e. If your players are having trouble, then it sounds like something just isn't clicking for them and maybe you should try meeting them halfway.

Unfortunately 5E is a game where you instead ask "Hey, you remembered to prepare [insert spell here], right?". As long as you ban all spell casters you can still get the game you want.

Palegreenpants
2014-06-28, 09:07 AM
Unfortunately 5E is a game where you instead ask "Hey, you remembered to prepare [insert spell here], right?". As long as you ban all spell casters you can still get the game you want.

Yeah, but at least its spells are good. Most of them are fairly subtle, or simply lack description, allowing for a DM to insert their own fluff.

Lokiare
2014-06-28, 09:13 AM
Yeah, but at least its spells are good. Most of them are fairly subtle, or simply lack description, allowing for a DM to insert their own fluff.

Yes which means there is going to be a huge gap between what a player expects a spell to do and what a DM expects it to do.

Palegreenpants
2014-06-28, 09:26 AM
Yes which means there is going to be a huge gap between what a player expects a spell to do and what a DM expects it to do.

Good point, but I feel that it is not a problem as long as you establish and explain the nature of magic before someone plays a magician. Honestly, it's not a problem I've encountered in 5E.

Lokiare
2014-06-29, 03:36 PM
Good point, but I feel that it is not a problem as long as you establish and explain the nature of magic before someone plays a magician. Honestly, it's not a problem I've encountered in 5E.

Unfortunately the single personal anecdote of an experienced DM playing with experienced players is not enough information to base a conclusion on. For instance me and my friends play Dark Souls 2 and defeat the pursuer boss as level 10 in the area without the ballista, so going on that knowledge the pursuer is way too easy.

Palegreenpants
2014-06-30, 09:02 AM
Unfortunately the single personal anecdote of an experienced DM playing with experienced players is not enough information to base a conclusion on. For instance me and my friends play Dark Souls 2 and defeat the pursuer boss as level 10 in the area without the ballista, so going on that knowledge the pursuer is way too easy.

Yes, everything is relative.

Endarire
2014-07-03, 10:28 PM
For me, this may be good as a one-shot, but for a long-term campaign, I'm very inclined toward pushing the magical barriers of society and the world and the game. Taking over the world by magic is just what casters do, and I want my chance.

rlc
2014-07-05, 09:21 AM
Well, after reading through most of the basic stuff, it seems that somethin like this is possible, though it might still require some refluffing.

unwise
2014-07-10, 01:18 AM
As a DM I am always tempted to run something like this, but then I remember that as a players I really dislike it. It puts so many character concepts and game mechanics out of reach of the players. So in the standard 5e rules, everybody would be a Barbarian, Rogue or Fighter? That just doesn't sound very interesting to me.

As the OP used JRR Tolkien as an example, the whole Fellowship of the Ring was just a bunch of guys taking different types of fighters/theives at different levels. They were distinguished by personality rather than mechanics. It also featured a magical NPC that drove the plot around and likely took away some sense of agency from the PCs.

In low magic games, when magic happens, seems even more of a DM fiat as it is generally used for plot specific reasons. PCs feel they cannot do anything much about magic.

The other thing I quickly realise when planning games based on Mythology is that the vast majority of mythology is very silly by modern standards. Most medieval tales are fairly non-sensical and rely a great deal on "a wizard/god did it". The actual tales that they tell are often very high magic indeed, a protagonist caught up in a surreal trip. There is a different between having a game like ancient mythology (high magic) and having a game in a setting like people in ancient times thought the world was like (low magic), where magic was something everybody has heard about but few claim to have seen.

Jigawatts
2014-07-11, 03:17 AM
Lokiare, I get the sense that you are really fond of 4E, and not so much regarding any other edition.