Powers and Tiers

[prufock]

I'm doing some homebrew for the psionic classes, and I was wondering: psion is generally considered tier 2, while wilder is low tier 3. They have the same power list and power points, with wilder having some actual class features and a better chassis, so it seemingly hinges on the number of powers known. Since the tier list is largely about versatility, this makes sense.

My query is: How many powers known would you have to add to wilder, or subtract from psion, to move it up/down a tier? If both classes had, say, 20 powers known, where would they be?

I know there is no perfect magical number, and the tier list has shades of grey (like what's the difference between high tier 3 and low tier 2), I'm just looking for informed opinions, I guess.

Psychic warrior is a different kettle of fish. More powers known that wilder, but only up to 6th, and less power points. Their list is also much more limited; they are mainly combat-focused.

[Amphetryon]

I'm doing some homebrew for the psionic classes, and I was wondering: psion is generally considered tier 2, while wilder is low tier 3. They have the same power list and power points, with wilder having some actual class features and a better chassis, so it seemingly hinges on the number of powers known. Since the tier list is largely about versatility, this makes sense.

My query is: How many powers known would you have to add to wilder, or subtract from psion, to move it up/down a tier? If both classes had, say, 20 powers known, where would they be?

I know there is no perfect magical number, and the tier list has shades of grey (like what's the difference between high tier 3 and low tier 2), I'm just looking for informed opinions, I guess.

Psychic warrior is a different kettle of fish. More powers known that wilder, but only up to 6th, and less power points. Their list is also much more limited; they are mainly combat-focused.

I think the answer would largely depend on how you stepped the progression of the re-vamped Psion and Wilder; if the versatility of extra Powers only came about, say, every 5th level or so and yet you managed to get 20 Powers Known by 20th level, you might seriously cramp the style of most Psions, and would not significantly alter the way Wilders tend to play over a majority of their careers.

[Zaq]

I consider Wilder to be the rock bottom of T2, but they're still T2. Remember, while they're far from doing everything that a Psion can do, they can do anything that a Psion can do . . . and what's more, they do it better than the Psion does. They can have whatever game-smashing tricks you want . . . they just don't get as many of them. That's pretty much textbook T2. The Psion is near the top of T2, and the Wilder is near (or at) the bottom, but they still sit at the same table.

It's worth mentioning that the Ardent gets 21 powers known, and they're generally considered T2 as well. If you get 9th level stuff (spells and powers, not maneuvers), and you get to choose what it is, you're almost always at least T2. (The Shugenja is a notable exception, and even that's in contention.) It's not how many powers you get so much as what you can do with them. I've seen arguments for the Ardent being T3, but to be honest, I don't really buy them; they still get a lot of powers known from a relatively broad list, even if that list has some additional restrictions placed on it.